transmanche
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However National Rail tickets are valid on Metro services between Sunderland and Newcastle. (Although Metro's CoC would also apply when on their stations and trains.)
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Travelcard, HS1 & TFL map
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bb21
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Perhaps because the Heathrow end of HEX and HC are not shown as being within the zones?
Not by right though. It is valid due to an explicit interavailability agreement.
EM2
Established Member
Neither is HS1 to Ebbsfleet and Ashford.
andythebrave
Member
The service operated by L&SER is part of the National Rail network because that company is a member of ATOC. HS1, and all Network Rail lines are not part of the National Rail network; it's the operating companies services that are.
EM2
Established Member
Yet Eurostar are members of ATOC, yet they are not National Rail services.
andythebrave
Member
Between St Pancras and Stratford International. Not sure of the relevance of anything further afield other than the whole route as far as Ashford has NR services operating on it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry about that, thought app C was all of ATOC. It is a list of companies to which the NRCoC apply. Mind you, you can't buy a ticket on Eurostar for travel within GB.
EM2
Established Member
So, we still don't have a definition of what National Rail is, and until we do, we cannot be definitive one way or the other as to whether the ticket is valid using your interpretation.
andythebrave
Member
We are only looking for a definition of a National Rail service. The clearest definition that I can come up with is any service that:
1. Is operated by a company that is subject tothe National Rail Conditions of Carriage and
2. Is wholly within Great Britain.
EM2
Established Member
Yes, but that's your definition. Is that the definition meant when used on the map?
andythebrave
Member
Can you think of any definition that would render STP-SFA not a NR service?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I can buy a season ticket that includes it, buy an any permitted ticket that includes it and use national railcards to obtain a discount on journeys using it; why on earth would it not be a National Rail service?
hairyhandedfool
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If this is the definition, why the exemption for Heathrow Express?
They're not subject to the NRCoC are they?
EM2
Established Member
Well, the very first one that I mentioned, that it is a journey wholly on privately-owned infrastructure. And as such, if the owners of that infrastructure does not wish the operators that they have licenced to accept those tickets, then they won't accept them.
hairyhandedfool
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Exactly, so why the exemption from "National Rail services"?.....
andythebrave
Member
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/London_South_East.pdf
Now I'd think that services operating on routes on this map can be safely stated to be NR services and the Heathrow services are on it!!! Presumably that's why there's an exception listed for Heathrow in the travelcard literature.
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EM2
Established Member
That map includes the Bluebell, the Spa Valley and the Isle of Wight Steam Railway.
You'll also note that it lists Southeastern Highspeed as a separate train operator.
andythebrave
Member
Then the map should be changed!
And the TfL zones map too.
Here comes Alphonse from Marseilles. He's planning a trip to London for the weekend and sees that there's something called a travelcard that, after checking the TfL zones map seems perfect for his needs; he wants to do the Wembley stadium tour, the London Eye and see the Olympic stadium. He's a little concerned that he's paying for zones 1-6 and doesn't need that much but he can't find anything cheaper.
He turns up at St Pancras and is told that instead of a 6 minute ride to the Olympic park he's got to take the underground all the way or change at Liverpool Street.
The staff at the gateline tell him that travelcards are not valid on the direct rail service but this seems to be because they think that's right and cannot back this up with anything that actually stands up to beyond a cursory scrutiny.
This messes up his timetable for the day and leaves him with a rather unsavoury impression of this country rather similar to that I experienced in California when we were stopped by police on our way back from a beach on suspicion of having an open container of alcohol in the car (we didn't) but it was guns out stand with your hands against the car and heaven help me if I tried to say anything.
It leaves a bitter taste.
What's with SET and this route? It's not special, it's just another train. We shouldn't care whether or not the tracks are owned by a private company - or perhaps we should when it leads to complete nonsense such as this.
Similarly with the Heathrow nonsense.
I guess this means that HS2 will be transporting vast amounts of empty space around when the track charges are factored into the fares, still they can always turn it into a dedicated coach and bus lane.
Is it too late to stop it?
Probably yes.
And the TfL zones map too.
Here comes Alphonse from Marseilles. He's planning a trip to London for the weekend and sees that there's something called a travelcard that, after checking the TfL zones map seems perfect for his needs; he wants to do the Wembley stadium tour, the London Eye and see the Olympic stadium. He's a little concerned that he's paying for zones 1-6 and doesn't need that much but he can't find anything cheaper.
He turns up at St Pancras and is told that instead of a 6 minute ride to the Olympic park he's got to take the underground all the way or change at Liverpool Street.
The staff at the gateline tell him that travelcards are not valid on the direct rail service but this seems to be because they think that's right and cannot back this up with anything that actually stands up to beyond a cursory scrutiny.
This messes up his timetable for the day and leaves him with a rather unsavoury impression of this country rather similar to that I experienced in California when we were stopped by police on our way back from a beach on suspicion of having an open container of alcohol in the car (we didn't) but it was guns out stand with your hands against the car and heaven help me if I tried to say anything.
It leaves a bitter taste.
What's with SET and this route? It's not special, it's just another train. We shouldn't care whether or not the tracks are owned by a private company - or perhaps we should when it leads to complete nonsense such as this.
Similarly with the Heathrow nonsense.
I guess this means that HS2 will be transporting vast amounts of empty space around when the track charges are factored into the fares, still they can always turn it into a dedicated coach and bus lane.
Is it too late to stop it?
Probably yes.
hairyhandedfool
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You mean apart from the NRCoC and the TfL CoC?:roll:
swt_passenger
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Fair enough but please don't blame Southeastern for this.
The SRA directed that travelcards would not be valid on HS1 in the 'Integrated Kent franchise' ITT, in the same way as they (the SRA) decided HS1 would have premium fares, and also that the franchise would have a higher RPI+ percentage for annual fare rises.
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