Travelcard, HS1 & TFL map

[furlong]

Anyone considering whether they may use a Travelcard on the HS1 route between St Pancras and Stratford would do well, alongside the zonal map, to consult our old friend, National Rail Enquiries, as surely this (and not "The Manual") provides the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#crossing_Travelcards

Travelcards can be issued in a range of zonal combinations and subject to the zones purchased, you can use your Travelcard on:

Tube, DLR and National Rail services (but not Heathrow Express or Heathrow Connect services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow)
All London Bus services (except some special services and excursions) regardless of the zones for which the ticket is issued
London Tramlink services where the Travelcard is valid for travel in Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6 or any combination of these zones.

HS1 is surely a National Rail service and the maps seem to show it runs inside, not outside, the zones.

 

[transmanche]

Anyone considering whether they may use a Travelcard on the HS1 route between St Pancras and Stratford would do well, alongside the zonal map, to consult our old friend, National Rail Enquiries, as surely this (and not "The Manual") provides the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#crossing_Travelcards

HS1 is surely a National Rail service and the maps seem to show it runs inside, not outside, the zones.

Or by looking a bit further into the NRE website, you'll find this under Your ticket > Travelling to, from and via London > Travelcards and Oyster:

Travelcards can be issued in a range of zonal combinations and subject to the zones purchased, you can use your Travelcard on:

• Tube, Docklands Light Railway (DLR) and National Rail services (but not Heathrow Express or Heathrow Connect services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow)
• Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services
• All London Bus services (except some special services and excursions) regardless of the zones for which the ticket is issued
• London Tramlink services where the Travelcard is valid for travel in Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6 or any combination of these zones

Therefore I think it's safe to conclude that a Travelcard without such an endorsement is not valid on HS1.

 

[furlong]

Or by looking a bit further into the NRE website,
Therefore I think it's safe to conclude that a Travelcard without such an endorsement is not valid on HS1.

There is no cross-reference between the two paragraphs, so a reader discovering one of them has no reason to look for the other, and as has already been pointed out further up the thread, the version you quote does not state that a travelcard without such an endorsement is invalid: the two paragraphs can be interpreted in a manner such that they do not contradict each other.

 

[transmanche]

the version you quote does not state that a travelcard without such an endorsement is invalid: the two paragraphs can be interpreted in a manner such that they do not contradict each other.

Good luck with that...

 

[EM2]

HS1 is surely a National Rail service and the maps seem to show it runs inside, not outside, the zones.

By what definition is HS1 a National Rail service, given that the infrastructure is not owned by Network Rail?

 

[PermitToTravel]

By that logic Chiltern services to Aylesbury via Harrow are not National Rail services between Harrow and Amersham as they run on London Underground metals

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A couple of points if I may.....

1) The Manual was branded as "the official source of retail information", but it has been replaced by iKB. For those who don't know, iKB is National Rail Enquiries (internal) KnowledgeBase and claims it is the official source of rail information in exactly the same way as the main NRES site, because, basically, it is the same site.

2) Does no-one read the NRCoC anymore? Specifically, Condition 1.

 

[EM2]

By that logic Chiltern services to Aylesbury via Harrow are not National Rail services between Harrow and Amersham as they run on London Underground metals

Depends on the agreements between the companies concerned.

 

[maniacmartin]

Therefore I think it's safe to conclude that a Travelcard without such an endorsement is not valid on HS1.

It doesn't say that though!

 

[island]

Before I knew about this rule, I did Stratford to St Pancras on high speed, as the gates were open and I thought it was allowed on a travelcard. Just got stopped at the St Pancras gateline and was asked to buy a Stratford - St Pancras single (can't remember how much it was then).

You were lucky not to have been issued a Penalty Fare.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Depends on the agreements between the companies concerned.

Go back further in time and you'll find that (historically) Chiltern run on two "joint" routes, namely the Great Central and Great Western Joint between South Ruislip and Ashendon Junction; and the Metropolitan and Great Central Joint between Harrow South Junction and Verney Junction (though the route between Quainton Road and Verney Junction was closed in 1947, with the last track being lifted in 1961).

Turning to the present day, the maintenance boundaries are Harrow South Junction and Mantles Wood, whilst procedural boundaries for rule book purposes are Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham stations.

For ticketing purposes, LU fares apply between Marylebone and stations to Amersham, hence the disparity in prices between the two routes for journeys of a similar distance.

 

[transmanche]

It doesn't say that though!

Well only a perverse interpretation would come to any other conclusion. But hey, if you're so confident of your interpretation, give it a go and see how well you get on.

 

[andythebrave]

Well only a perverse interpretation would come to any other conclusion. But hey, if you're so confident of your interpretation, give it a go and see how well you get on.

I have to disagree. Making a positive statement about a particular circumstance does not, in any way, make any other circumstance any less positive.

Billy is good at Maths.

Can we infer anything from this statement about Billy's ability in Science?

 

[transmanche]

I have to disagree. Making a positive statement about a particular circumstance does not, in any way, make any other circumstance any less positive.

Billy is good at Maths.

Can we infer anything from this statement about Billy's ability in Science?

That's not exactly a similar comparison is it? We can all be selective about the examples we choose and the context in which they are presented. For example, if that was a 'List of school subjects that Billy is good at'; then it would be entirely logical to infer that Billy is not good at Science.

Being that we're looking at a list of things 'you can use your Travelcard on', the fact it is specifically pointed out that "Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services", it is entirely logical to conclude that Travelcards without that endorsement are not valid on Southeastern high speed services.

Any reasonable person knows exactly what it means. Trying to claim otherwise is perverse and simply nit-picking of the highest order.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Being that we're looking at a list of things 'you can use your Travelcard on', the fact it is specifically pointed out that "Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services", it is entirely logical to conclude that Travelcards without that endorsement are not valid on Southeastern high speed services....

Also, if it were valid with travelcards anyway, there would be no point in making special mention of those routes, because they'd be valid anyway.

 

[andythebrave]

Any reasonable person knows exactly what it means. Trying to claim otherwise is perverse and simply nit-picking of the highest order.

Well, thank you for that damning indictment.

In addition to the statement that tickets marked etc etc are valid which does not, despite your protestations, place any restriction on anything else there is also the para above that stating validity on National Rail services which HS1 definitely is. Note that HS1 does not form part of Network Rail but that is not the same thing.

So, NRE confirms validity, the link from there goes to a map which clearly shows the stations and the line betwixt all falling within the zones, and there is no specific restriction.

Obviously you can't use a travelcard!

 

[transmanche]

In addition to the statement that tickets marked etc etc are valid which does not, despite your protestations, place any restriction on anything else

In your opinion. I'd love to see you trying to explain your logic to a Magistrate - and watch as you get laughed out of court.

the link from there goes to a map which clearly shows the stations and the line betwixt all falling within the zones, and there is no specific restriction.

And as noted upthread, that map does not say anything about Travelcard validity - either positive or negative.

 

[andythebrave]

The map is used to determine whether your journey is within the zones or not. In this case it is.

I have every confidence that a magistrate would agree; it is, after all, merely the interpretation of some simple English and a map.

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps its best to agree to disagree here, as I can see this argument becoming circular

 

[EM2]

... validity on National Rail services which HS1 definitely is. Note that HS1 does not form part of Network Rail but that is not the same thing.

Please define National Rail.

 

[andythebrave]

In any case, the most obvious meaning of 'Travelcards routed plus highspeed etc' is that those may be used on HS1 to and from the travelcard area and bears no relation to the ticket's use within the zones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Passenger rail services operated in Great Britain.

 

[EM2]

Passenger rail services operated in Great Britain.

So, that would include Tyne & Wear Metro, then? And Eurostar?

 

[bb21]

National Rail train companies are listed in Appendix C of the NRCoC, of which Southeastern (or its full name) is one whereas Tyne & Wear Metro is not.

 

[EM2]

National Rail train companies are listed in Appendix C of the NRCoC, of which Southeastern (or its full name) is one whereas Tyne & Wear Metro is not.

It says that the NRCoC applies to these companies. It still does not define what a National Rail service actually is.

 

[andythebrave]

Ok, passenger rail services in GB operated by members of ATOC (of which NR is a part).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....In addition to the statement that tickets marked etc etc are valid which does not, despite your protestations, place any restriction on anything else there is also the para above that stating validity on National Rail services which HS1 definitely is. Note that HS1 does not form part of Network Rail but that is not the same thing....

It says National Rail services, it does not say all National Rail services.

In any case, the most obvious meaning of 'Travelcards routed plus highspeed etc' is that those may be used on HS1 to and from the travelcard area and bears no relation to the ticket's use within the zones....

So why make the distinction? If it is of no concern to the travelcard itself there is no reason to mention it at all.

It's like claiming a ticket with a restriction of "Valid on trains timed to depart after 0930" is valid on trains timed to depart before 0930 because there is nothing to say it isn't.

 

[EM2]

Ok, passenger rail services in GB operated by members of ATOC (of which NR is a part).

So, including Eurostar and Heathrow Express then...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

National Rail train companies are listed in Appendix C of the NRCoC, of which Southeastern (or its full name) is one whereas Tyne & Wear Metro is not.

Neither are Heathrow Express or Heathrow Connect (between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow Airport).

 

[andythebrave]

So, including Eurostar and Heathrow Express then...

Not Eurostar as it is impossible to travel on it within GB. Heathrow Express yes.

Having checked appendix C I amend my response to no in both cases.

 

[EM2]

Not Eurostar as it is impossible to travel on it within GB. Heathrow Express yes.

Having checked appendix C I amend my response to no in both cases.

Right. So by your own argument, non-restricted Travelcards are valid on all National Rail services within the TfL zones, and as such should be accepted on HS1. Do you therefore also argue that they should be accepted on Heathrow Express?
If you accept that Heathrow Express is not National Rail, why do you say that HS1 is?