Travelcard, HS1 & TFL map

[andythebrave]

I'm sure that I've read on here somewhere that St Pancras to Stratford is outside the Travelcard zones so such cards are not valid on Southeastern services on that route. However, having just looked at the current 'London's rail & tube services' map published by TfL the relevant banning statement refers to Oyster PAYG only and clearly shows the line starting in zone 1 and with SFA in zone 3.
So, I guess the questions are, what is correct, where does it say so and is it reasonable to expect any unwitting passenger to read between the lines?

 

[bb21]

Travelcards are not valid on HS1 at all unless specifically routed "Plus High Speed".

It is not the zonal classification that stops you using Travelcards on HS1.

 

[furlong]

I have the same interpretation of these posters, that they are clearly advertising that a journey from St Pancras to Stratford falls within the travelcard zones and therefore can be made using a ticket that covers those zones by reference to the document - the notes in small print do not exclude it. This advertising has been in place for quite some time so can hardly be viewed as a mistake. In practice, though, the platforms at both stations are gated and so at the start of your journey staff might advise you that the posters are incorrect and recommend you do not make the journey without purchasing a further ticket.

 

[andythebrave]

Thanks for that, but who says so as that seems to contradict the map information? Also, a Travelcard from, say, Bedford, will not have 'not HS1' printed on it; I thought that any restriction on route or operator had to be stated on the ticket otherwise it is, in effect, an all operator/route ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have the same interpretation of these posters, that they are clearly advertising that a journey from St Pancras to Stratford falls within the travelcard zones and therefore can be made using a ticket that covers those zones by reference to the document - the notes in small print do not exclude it. This advertising has been in place for quite some time so can hardly be viewed as a mistake. In practice, though, the platforms at both stations are gated and so at the start of your journey staff might advise you that the posters are incorrect and recommend you do not make the journey without purchasing a further ticket.

So, there's no restriction on the ticket and the publicity says it's valid, on what basis would gateline employees make the decision to turn someone back?

 

[bb21]

I am only advising based on what I am aware of. Perhaps you would like to be a test case?

 

[Haywain]

The publicity quite clearly states that your Travelcard is not valid

Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services

The map doesn't mention Travelcards anywhere, so I don't see how it can be claimed to be definitive in showing that a Travelcard is valid.

 

[andythebrave]

I am only advising based on what I am aware of. Perhaps you would like to be a test case?

Ha! No thanks. It's for my other half who would appreciate any pitfalls even less.
She's travelling tomorrow Lidlington-St. Pancras-Stratford (break then bus to Walthamstow) so I'll go for an off peak single to STP at £14.15 with Disabled railcard, single to SFA at £3.90 and PAYG on the bus.

How's that for integrated transport?

 

[Deerfold]

The publicity quite clearly states that your Travelcard is not valid


The map doesn't mention Travelcards anywhere, so I don't see how it can be claimed to be definitive in showing that a Travelcard is valid.

Though it does specifically mention various marks as meaing "Station in both fare zones" , "Tramlink fare zone" and "Emirates Airline fare zone" - I'm sure they could have showed the line between Statford and St Pancras with a similar shading.

 

[bb21]

How's that for integrated transport?

I am not going to comment on that. What I believe should be permitted (through strict literal interpretation) and what in reality is permitted are two separate things, and I certainly would not want to complicate matters for those who are not very experienced, eg. your other half.

The only reference which I have that specifically forbids (rather than not mentioning permission of) what you are proposing is The Manual (correct as of the end of January), which some argue do not form part of the contract. I leave you to digest what it says and what NRE says as quoted by Haywain. Not everything is black and white unfortunately so I leave you to make your own mind up on this.

London Area Travelcards

(* Note: Travelcards are not valid on Heathrow Express, or on Heathrow Connect services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow. Only Travelcards routed ‘Plus High Speed’ or ‘Any Permitted + High Speed’ are valid on Southeastern high speed services)

 

[andythebrave]

The publicity quite clearly states that your Travelcard is not valid


The map doesn't mention Travelcards anywhere, so I don't see how it can be claimed to be definitive in showing that a Travelcard is valid.

The map is, as far as I can tell, the single most likely point of information for anyone wishing to check routes, zones and so forth. It specifically excludes PAYG from 3 services. Travelcards are not PAYG and should, therefore be valid. NRE says "Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services" so I can see why one would say "not valid" but reading it literally (is there any other way?) it does not state the validity of tickets marked in any other way so one must assume they are valid. NRE also links to the map referred to earlier which also does not place any restriction.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Is a Travelcard routed "PLUS HIGH SPEED" (e.g., an out-boundary Travelcard from Ebbsfleet) considered valid for unlimited travel between Stratford and St Pancras over the course of a day, or just for one journey in each direction?

 

[swt_passenger]

Back in the days when the ATOC/TfL 'London Connections' map was the usual thing you'd look at for this sort of info, all the details about travelcard availability was all explicitly shown in the notes - Dec 2008 example below, which predates 'SE high speed', I think.

The decision to replace that map for both TfL and TOC purposes with what now seems to be known as the 'Oyster Rail services' map dropped all that travelcard info, IMHO they focussed to much on the concept of the Oyster PAYG zone, and ignored travelcards. Either that or they believe (wrongly) that reference to an Oyster PAYG area implies travel cards are also valid?

I think the note in the box (lower left) on the current map should just be amended to start off "Oyster PAYG and travelcards are valid within etc..."

How they deal with the different zonal availability, i.e. normal travel cards are just zone 1-6 products, is another matter again...

 

[transmanche]

FWIW, the TfL Conditions of Carriage specifically state that Oyster PAYG, Day Travelcards and Travelcard Seasons are "not available [for use] on Southeastern high speed trains".

So if you've bought a Travelcard from a TfL outlet, then it's definitely not valid on HS1.

 

[maniacmartin]

FWIW, the TfL Conditions of Carriage specifically state that Oyster PAYG, Day Travelcards and Travelcard Seasons are "not available [for use] on Southeastern high speed trains".

So if you've bought a Travelcard from a TfL outlet, then it's definitely not valid on HS1.

The TfL Conditions of Carriage do not apply to National Rail services. You instead need to consult the Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services, which also prohibit HS1 travel. A paper travelcard wouldn't be covered by these terms though, and would I believe me valid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I thought that any restriction on route or operator had to be stated on the ticket otherwise it is, in effect, an all operator/route ticket....

If you refer to Condition 10 of the NRCoC, it states "...the services of a particular Train Company...." South Eastern Trains is a Train Company, 'High Speed' is not. Travelcards are valid on many South Eastern services, but they are not valid on the High Speed services.

If you refer to Condition 13 of the NRCoC, this condition is not specific enough to cover the issue at hand.

 

[transmanche]

The TfL Conditions of Carriage do not apply to National Rail services.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, I didn't say the TfL CoCs apply to NR services.

But the TfL CoCs do apply to tickets purchased from TfL. Hence why I said "So if you've bought a Travelcard from a TfL outlet, then it's definitely not valid on HS1."

 

[EM2]

The map is, as far as I can tell, the single most likely point of information for anyone wishing to check routes, zones and so forth. It specifically excludes PAYG from 3 services. Travelcards are not PAYG and should, therefore be valid.

Does it specifically say anywhere that Travelcards are valid on all services in the map area? Does it say they are valid *at all*? Does it even mention Travelcards?

 

[transmanche]

Does it specifically say anywhere that Travelcards are valid on all services in the map area? Does it say they are valid *at all*? Does it even mention Travelcards?

No it doesn't mention Travelcards at all.

In fact the only reason it mentions Oyster PAYG is because (as well as showing the fare zones) it shows the boundary where Oyster PAYG is accepted outside the fare zones.

Oyster pay as you go fares are available between all stations within the black broken line except for travel on:
• Southeastern high speed,
• Heathrow Express and
• Heathrow Connect between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow.
For fares information visit tfl.gov.uk/tickets

And the text simply clarifies the meaning of that boundary line.

 

[PermitToTravel]

What about a Lidlington to Stratford International route "VIA WEST HAMPSTD" anytime day single (£16.45)?

 

[bb21]

What about a Lidlington to Stratford International route "VIA WEST HAMPSTD" anytime day single (£16.45)?

What's the question? Is it valid on HS1?

 

[Searle]

I am only advising based on what I am aware of. Perhaps you would like to be a test case?

Before I knew about this rule, I did Stratford to St Pancras on high speed, as the gates were open and I thought it was allowed on a travelcard. Just got stopped at the St Pancras gateline and was asked to buy a Stratford - St Pancras single (can't remember how much it was then).

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, I didn't say the TfL CoCs apply to NR services.

But the TfL CoCs do apply to tickets purchased from TfL. Hence why I said "So if you've bought a Travelcard from a TfL outlet, then it's definitely not valid on HS1."

This is the first I've heard of this, please could you share your source?
I bought a Plusbus ticket from a tube station today, and as far as I am aware I don't need to comply with for example the requirement not to drink alcohol aboard buses in Sheffield.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's the question? Is it valid on HS1?

I think it is (it's surely intended to be!), and it would be cheaper than the OP's suggested split.

 

[bb21]

I think it is (it's surely intended to be!), and it would be cheaper than the OP's suggested split.

I see what you mean.

Yes, I think it is valid on HS1. I cannot see any reason why it is not.

 

[transmanche]

This is the first I've heard of this, please could you share your source?

Yes, the TfL Conditions of Carriage.

Although they're called 'Condition of Carriage', they're also 'Conditions of Sale' - or you could think of them just as 'Terms & Conditions'

I bought a Plusbus ticket from a tube station today, and as far as I am aware I don't need to comply with for example the requirement not to drink alcohol aboard buses in Sheffield.

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or facetious.

TfL CoC 4.6 refers to not drinking alcohol on TfL Buses. The TfL CoCs also say: "If you use other companies’ services, their Conditions of Carriage will apply to that part of your journey". So when using your PlusBus ticket in Sheffield, you will need to comply with the CoC of whichever bus operator(s) you use.

So in short, if you buy a ticket from TfL you are bound by their CoCs as regards the conditions of sale etc and when you travel on TfL (no matter where you got the ticket from) you are bound by their CoCs as regards usage and behaviour etc.

 

[greatkingrat]

What about a Lidlington to Stratford International route "VIA WEST HAMPSTD" anytime day single (£16.45)?

I think it is valid, although it probably isn't supposed to be. It is the same price as a ticket to Stratford Regional and is intended to be used via the NLL.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think it is valid, although it probably isn't supposed to be. It is the same price as a ticket to Stratford Regional and is intended to be used via the NLL.

I don't think so. The stations are in different clusters, so the tickets will have been set independently of each other.

 

[greatkingrat]

So how are you supposed to use this ticket?

SDR Potters Bar - Stratford Int SE (via Hackney Wick)
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=PBR&dest=SFA&rte=158&tkt=SDR

 

[PermitToTravel]

Silly answer: any permitted route to Hackney Wick, and then any permitted route from there to Stratford Int. According to the NRG this ticket has validity on LU.

In seriousness: you're correct and I take your point, it appears that both are mistakes

 

[bb21]

Stratford fares are a bit of a mess.

Booking engines used to tell you to go to Stratford Regional and walk to International on some Stratford International tickets and vice versa. I haven't checked but I suspect that they still do that.

 

[Stats]

So how are you supposed to use this ticket?

SDR Potters Bar - Stratford Int SE (via Hackney Wick)
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=PBR&dest=SFA&rte=158&tkt=SDR

Easy. Potters Bar > Highbury & Islington > Stratford London > DLR > Stratford International.