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Transdev Blazefield

SCH117X

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Article on web site
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-64216099

Wonder how the 80 routes are counted, for example the 22 and 23 are actually the 56, 142 and 143 while the 8 is a combination of Wetherby-Knaresborough with the Harrogate-Knaresborough part of what was the 56/57 - the rest of the 57 being the 21. Then do school variations get counted separately.

Re the Wharfedale services 948, 962 and Otley Dash presumably West Yorkshire Metro have another operator lined up.
 
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northern506

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Article on web site
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-64216099

Wonder how the 80 routes are counted, for example the 22 and 23 are actually the 56, 142 and 143 while the 8 is a combination of Wetherby-Knaresborough with the Harrogate-Knaresborough part of what was the 56/57 - the rest of the 57 being the 21. Then do school variations get counted separately.

Re the Wharfedale services 948, 962 and Otley Dash presumably West Yorkshire Metro have another operator lined up.

I'd assume Connexions are the most likely to operate these services.
 

Ken H

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I'd assume Connexions are the most likely to operate these services.
The dash is a waste of space and there were no passengers last time I went on it. Expect Metro to cut its cloth.
 
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SCH117X

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If the TV report was filmed today (or last week) it did not look like the £2 fare was having any great impact, unlike the 1100 24 from Pateley Bridge last Friday which was looking pretty full when I saw it just before it reached Killinghall en route to Harrogate.
 
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The dash is a waste of space and there were no passengers last time I went on it. Expect Metro to cut its cloth.
Another one of your posts based on nonsense and one off observations. The Dash can be a very busy route, especially up around the Weston and Newall end. The Menston section not so much as the 34 already serves it.

I once used an X6 and it was empty, I should think First will be cutting it soon... see I can do it as well.
 

Ken H

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Another one of your posts based on nonsense and one off observations. The Dash can be a very busy route, especially up around the Weston and Newall end. The Menston section not so much as the 34 already serves it.

I once used an X6 and it was empty, I should think First will be cutting it soon... see I can do it as well.
I only rode Dash from Menston to Otley. Maybe the bit north of the river is different.
 
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Stan Drews

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I only rode Dash from Menston to Otley. Maybe the bit north of the river is different.
The bit north of the river was commercially operated on Mon-Sat daytime (at least pre-covid). The Menston end was a WY Metro contract.
 

Andyh82

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Yes because if you recall, when First lost all the wharfedale tenders, the 965 was retained, being commercial, for a while.

It will be interesting who takes them over, as note that even Connexions have also made cuts in this area. All the Otley services they run now are basically run around schools using double deckers, they have no buses solely deployed on local services any more
 

bluenoxid

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Have Transdev lost these services around Otley in a tender exercise or handed them back?
 

Ken H

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Have Transdev lost these services around Otley in a tender exercise or handed them back?
I bet they are playing Metro to get the unrenumerative bits thinned out. Maybe save a bus and crew while keeping the core provision.
 

jonesy3001

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I only rode Dash from Menston to Otley. Maybe the bit north of the river is different.
The bit that goes over the goes around the estate before terminating at Wharfedale hospital.
Found it quicker to walk though.
Also know a driver that goes drinking in my local and he says TLC are taking over the Otley Dash; apparently they run services around Shipley.
 
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O539

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Re TLC, I wonder if they will regain the tender for the 966 again after they lost it to Transdev in 2016.

Also it'll be interesting to see who will take over the 962 as it is earmarked to eventually have the frequency of services increased to every 30 mins and have the operating times extended due to the funding provided by the Sun Lane housing development in Burley-In-Wharfedale, as shown below in the Section 106 agreement between the developers and the council (available on the Bradford council planning portal)

Sun Lane s106 bus agreement.png

Additionally, the Gov UK website is now showing all the withdrawals, which verifies that all the wharefedale links services, including the 966, are affected as they are all currently labelled as "Cancelled" as of the 19th February, as per the links below to their respective pages:

962 - https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/606162/
948 - https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/606161/
966 - https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/606163/
Otley dash (965) - https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/606164/
 
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Bwsbro

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Alex Hornby just tweeted that York Depot will take over the 12 from 23rd of Jan. looks like they’re trying to cream former First contracted Routes whilst also trying to offload some of their own underperforming contacts

Great to add another route to the family and welcome more customers on board. See you on the @yorkbus 12 from 23rd Jan!
 

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SCH117X

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It was York city council who decided to award it to Transdev and its only an emeregency tender to be reawarded from April 1.
 

Andyh82

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The big difference being this contract will have 2023 level costs embedded in the tender price, the existing ones don’t
 

Bantamzen

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The bit that goes over the goes around the estate before terminating at Wharfedale hospital.
Found it quicker to walk though.
Also know a driver that goes drinking in my local and he says TLC are taking over the Otley Dash; apparently they run services around Shipley.
Yeah TLC are mainly based around Shipley, although there is one very early morning 653 Bradford - Otley / Pool Bank that they run. This service previously ran for most of the day before the Transdev A3 extended from LBA to Otley (albeit there were several months between the two where only the early monring TLC ran from Bradford through to Otley).
 

NorthernSpirit

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The dash is a waste of space and there were no passengers last time I went on it. Expect Metro to cut its cloth.

The 965 in its previous incarnations seemed a little disconected to the rest of the Otley network, maybe Metro should look at relaunching the Otley network as a multiroute town service ran by a single operator with distinct nunmering e.g. O1, O2, O3, etc.

Since its likely that Transdev will be easing back on a select number of routes including DASH, maybe the DASH could be split into to sections - The Otley to Menston section could be repackaged into a reworked Wetherby to Menston via Otley service with the Otley to Newhall section being extended to Leeds as an X85 or as I've said above a repackaged Otley network "Otley Orbits" anyone?
 

O539

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I do agree that maybe a reworking of the Otley bus routes after the Transdev withdrawals might be beneficial, particularly with WYCA (West Yorkshire Combined Authority) funded routes such as the 963 and the 964 which could be merged given their close proximity and similar frequency. Especially since both services are currently run by the same operator (Connexionsbuses)

Following on with a similar idea, correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be logical to merge the 962 and Otley dash (965) at menston into one singular service. It would follow the regular 962 and DASH routes, but instead of the DASH returning back to otley after menston it would continue on the 962 route and vice versa. It would make sense as they would be able to keep the DASH at the same frequency and operating hours it is currently at since the 962 is earmarked to have the frequency increased and have the operating hours extended, as I mentioned in a previous post.
The only problem I can see with this, aside from WYCA funding complications, is that the singular operator running the route would need considerably more buses since it's effectively doing the job of two services. If this was to happen without the Transdev withdrawals, they (Transdev) would've had the capacity for this since they already had the tender for both the 962 and DASH, however a smaller operator like TLC or Connexionsbuses might not have the current capacity for such a route.
 
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E-Rail

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Having been to York for the first time in about 14 years last week, I was really struck by just how empty almost all of the Coastliner journeys I saw were. I had a good view of both directions too from my Premier Inn window in Blossom Street. Even in peak hours, they had low load factors. So, when I got back and delved through this thread, I wasn't surprised to see news of the axing of the 840 and possible closure of Malton. This looks to be the biggest fall from grace for a UK bus operator that I can think of.

I drove for Coastliner around 20 years ago, and in those days it was the most profitable bus operator in the UK, with margins of 37-39% almost every year allowing it to also have the youngest profile at 2-3 years. To have gone from that level of performance to losing at least £1 million in the last year is shocking.

There is obviously plenty of factors at work here, with the obvious being the elephant in the room carrying a huge ENCTS pass. However, I do think, from what I remember of passenger flows and profiles, that Coastliner is probably in terminal decline now. The big earner year round was York to Leeds with large commuter flows from Copmanthorpe and Tadcaster into both. As Cityzap proved, if you miss them, you carry next to nobody. If you serve them, the journey for intercity passengers becomes too long and unbearable when there is a train (with a lot more seats now) that takes only 20 mins to Leeds. Going east, the route suffers much the same fate with the stop start routing through Stockton on the Forest. The 70 mile, 3 hour + end to end trip for those travelling to the coast is probably too much now, and if they close Malton, and remove the toilet break available for such passengers then there will be even less of them.

From a quality point of view, the brand now looks a complete mess. My partner had pointed out that she hadn't even seen any Yorkshire Coastliners because she remembers the classy and prominent blue and cream livery and hadn't even noticed the new buses. I'm a fan of Stenning's work and it has worked wonders in many areas but the Coastliner B5TLs are awful looking in the metal. This was the first time I had seen them as such and they are so far detached from the brand, image and passenger profile target of Fearnley and Wilde's Coastliner it's hard to believe it's the same route. In those days, the brand was targeted at year round commuters and deployed an upmarket, GNER-esque approach. (side note: Little known in the bus industry is that the original 36 upgrade in 2004 was patterned after, and inspired by GNER when Stuart Wilde travelled on one of the first refurbished 225 Mallard sets). The word 'bus' wasn't to be used. You caught a Coastliner, not a bus. The tacky, seaside marketing with childish branding inside is not going to appeal to that market. The east coast destinations were secondary business, the primary target was York and Leeds commuters, something that Hornby's team seem to have seriously misunderstood with their branding and targeting.

It's hard to see where Coastliner can go from here. Maybe CityZap was the wrong way around. Perhaps CityZap (without ENCTS) should have been fast to Tadcaster and York then continued to the coast with the 843 running all stops Leeds to Stockton with connection opportunities into the longer CityZap. Clearly Transdev can't continue to ply buses on 70 mile routes for £1.01 a tap and nobody will choose bus over train for Leeds to York when the saving is 2 hours on a return trip. It does look like a lose, lose.
 
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Andyh82

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I’m not sure the second week of January is a good benchmark at how popular a service is.

You could equally turn up in Whitby in August see 50 people queuing for the Coastliner and say how ridiculous it is that it’s at threat of being withdrawn

I’m not sure you’ve given a reason why you think passenger numbers have dropped, except for that you don’t like the current livery. I hardly think a Copmanthorpe commuter will have stopped travelling because of some seaside branding on the staircase design. The service frequency is exactly the same as it was in Blazefield days, and I’m not sure the journey times are much different either.
 

Deerfold

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The service frequency is exactly the same as it was in Blazefield days, and I’m not sure the journey times are much different either.
The base frequency is, but it was boosted at peak times, including having some services as express between Leeds and York.

The number of buses that actually make it to a Whitby has dropped, too.
 

E-Rail

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From memory, the section of 840 between Thornton and Whitby was always run under NYCC tender. The only commercial journeys were the twice daily double deck X40s in the summer.
 

Andyh82

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The base frequency is, but it was boosted at peak times, including having some services as express between Leeds and York.

The number of buses that actually make it to a Whitby has dropped, too.
I think it depends on the exact era, in my recollection, the Whitby frequency has always been quite low, particularly in Winter, and any improvements (i'm sure one year it was every 2 hours alternating with Thornton Le Dale shorts) always seem to be rolled back at the next opportunity and not reinstated the next summer
 

Ken H

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I think it depends on the exact era, in my recollection, the Whitby frequency has always been quite low, particularly in Winter, and any improvements (i'm sure one year it was every 2 hours alternating with Thornton Le Dale shorts) always seem to be rolled back at the next opportunity and not reinstated the next summer
Its been a difficult route since deregulation. It used to be run jointly by United/West Yorks; United from their Whitby garage, West Yorks from their Malton garage. It became all Blazefield at de-reg. They don't outstation buses in Whitby, so the first one south is very, very late and the last one North very, very early.

Resourcing it is hard - a minibus full in winter, a big double decker in summer - when the double deckers are needed for Leeds - Scarborough and there are low bridges in Goathland.
 
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SCH117X

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Obviously the low bridge is avoided at Goathland with the double deckers but consequently having to climb the bank out of Goathland in both directions must in itself have some impact on the costs of the service
 

TheGrandWazoo

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For a history lesson....

Prior to dereg, the York to Scarborough route was always hourly (except winter Sundays when it was two hourly). With the 744/746 from Brid/Hull to York then Leeds, this formed the half hourly headway from York to Leeds. When joint operation ceased c.1988, EYMS took the shortened 744/6 and instead, an 844 was introduced from York to Leeds. This was operated by York depot but when Yorkshire Coastliner was carved out in its own right as a business, all 843/844 journeys were worked from Malton so that meant extending the shorts to Malton.

Contrary to @Ken H recollection, at dereg, the Malton to Whitby service was transferred to East Yorkshire (Scarborough and District) as compensation for losing its share on the Scarborough to Middlesbrough service. It consisted of an irregular service between Malton and Pickering, of which three or four went over the top to Whitby. United retained some schools journeys from Goathland to Whitby IIRC

Subsequently, this was integrated into the main Coastliner route but the section from Whitby to Pickering has kept at 3/4 journeys a day save the introduction of seasonal expresses, and that's what we see today. Rolling stock on the 843 in the late 1980s was NBC era ECW Olympians and they were later replaced by Northern Counties examples. However, 5 late model Leyland Tigers with Plaxton Paramount III bodies were bought for the 840 as it had become in 1990, and they were subsequently replaced with the last single decks being Wright Eclipses. However, ENCTS came along, pass usage went up and deckers were required and hence deckers were specified throughout.

There's probably more (excludes the competitive episode and Zap, and the odd error) but that's mainly how we ended up where we are today (to keep it relevant).
 
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Deerfold

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I think it depends on the exact era, in my recollection, the Whitby frequency has always been quite low, particularly in Winter, and any improvements (i'm sure one year it was every 2 hours alternating with Thornton Le Dale shorts) always seem to be rolled back at the next opportunity and not reinstated the next summer
For many years it was possible to do a return journey from Whitby to Leeds (albeit you didn't get a lot of time in Leeds). That's not currently possible.

The Sunday service has dropped from a long-standing 4 to Whitby to just 2, with no direct service from Leeds and only one to Leeds.

If you wanted a Sunday in Whitby, it's only possible if you live on the route or can be in Central Leeds for 0815.
 

SCH117X

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If the custom existed there is no reason why earlier, and latter, workings to and from Whitby cannot occur; a 0500 from Malton would allow for a southbound departure from Whitby at around half 6 for example, and could be run later from Malton if northbound it skipped Goathland. Suspect the issue is the timetable is presumably set to meet North Yorkshire County Councils minimal requirements and ultimately that could end up with a service on Tuesdays and Saturdays only to coincide with Whitby market days.
 

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