Train v National Express Coach v Plane

[anti-pacer]

Yes it is do a journey plan on the Nat Ex website no changes a direct 540 to Liverpool. I have also used the 10.00 regularly northbound and it calls at Milton Keynes, Manchester and Liverpool. This has been going on for at least 2 years.

I stand corrected!

That has surprised me. What a raw deal Liverpool is getting now then, given the first direct service from London isn't until 12pm. When I say "direct" I mean not via Manchester.

I wonder if passenger numbers have decreased for them to have to do that.

 

[anti-pacer]

Personally I don't think it was meant in a racist way and I would be the first to jump on anyone I thought was being a racist or discriminating against someone for their religion. It just adds a bit of detail to the story, puts a picture in the mind so to say. It could have been a big group of students, a hen do or footy fans for example.

Exactly this.

 

[howittpie]

Recently I had to make the journey from Nottingham to London and would do this normally by train as can usually manage to get a good priced advance on that route. however the last time I looked at the coach fares and was quite interesting how low they have become with some competition on that route. Nat Ex were offering a £2 single with a £1 booking fee and Sn-ap a newish service to Covent Garden were offering a fare of £2.54 so opted for the coach as it was ridiculously cheap. I gave Sn-ap a try and was impressed as they picked me up at a more convenient point the only down side was no power sockets for charging the phone.

 

[anti-pacer]

Recently I had to make the journey from Nottingham to London and would do this normally by train as can usually manage to get a good priced advance on that route. however the last time I looked at the coach fares and was quite interesting how low they have become with some competition on that route. Nat Ex were offering a £2 single with a £1 booking fee and Sn-ap a newish service to Covent Garden were offering a fare of £2.54 so opted for the coach as it was ridiculously cheap. I gave Sn-ap a try and was impressed as they picked me up at a more convenient point the only down side was no power sockets for charging the phone.

Oooo... I've not heard of Sn-ap. I will have to look them up.

Back to the 540 Liverpool services, if you do a timetable search and put in Liverpool, it does show these as 540 services. What it doesn't show is that it goes via Manchester. It looks like a direct service, so to passengers they would probably think that's exactly what it is, until they turn up to the coach station and hear announcements and check display monitors.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Personally I don't think it was meant in a racist way and I would be the first to jump on anyone I thought was being a racist or discriminating against someone for their religion. It just adds a bit of detail to the story, puts a picture in the mind so to say. It could have been a big group of students, a hen do or footy fans for example.

I don't think for one second that he's a racist, I was just curious that's all.

 

[howittpie]

Oooo... I've not heard of Sn-ap. I will have to look them up.

Sn-ap on demand is an interesting concept they use local coach operators to provide the service but will only run the service if there is sufficient demand from looking on the website and using them they use local coach companies to provide the service such as Paul Winson. You have the option to book a service that is building and one that is definitely running but only pay for the one you travel on they let you know. Seems to be aimed at students with pick ups in Nottingham at the Royal Concert Hall, Lenton Derby Road sainsbury's, then either Broadgate Halls or Totton Lane tram stop then drop off at various points in London. Some journeys just run to Wembley Park tube. It is aimed at students but anyone can use it. The staff team on the website appear to have either worked at Chiltern Railways or Nat Ex

 

[Qwerty133]

The coach I was on tonight had the heating on full (and no air circulation) which caused it to be very stuffy, had 2 drivers on, one of whom was clearly new to the network and kept forgetting the order of the stops (and was wearing a superdry jacket) and the other who was guiding him admittedly to have never driven north of Sheffield (they were heading to Bradford). The drivers were also openly criticising the "impossible" timetable.
Other passengers included a man who was having a lengthy phone conversation on speaker phone in a foreign language (probably Arabic (or at least the phrase Allahu Akbar was mentioned more than once)), or more accurately recording and recieving a series of whatsapp messages, and a different man who thought every single stop was his destination.
One of the other services I regularly travel on is never a national express branded coach, but instead tends to be a plaxton panther with worn out seats no sockets and frequently an out-of-order toilet (and this is an NX contractor who have supposedly win awards most years).

 

[anti-pacer]

Oooo... I've not heard of Sn-ap. I will have to look them up.

Sn-ap on demand is an interesting concept they use local coach operators to provide the service but will only run the service if there is sufficient demand from looking on the website and using them they use local coach companies to provide the service such as Paul Winson. You have the option to book a service that is building and one that is definitely running but only pay for the one you travel on they let you know. Seems to be aimed at students with pick ups in Nottingham at the Royal Concert Hall, Lenton Derby Road sainsbury's, then either Broadgate Halls or Totton Lane tram stop then drop off at various points in London. Some journeys just run to Wembley Park tube. It is aimed at students but anyone can use it. The staff team on the website appear to have either worked at Chiltern Railways or Nat Ex

I've just had a read. Sounds a good idea really and should force NX to up their game. Hopefully!

 

[fowler9]

I don't think for one second that he's a racist, I was just curious that's all.

It just fleshes out the story. I guess he could have said a group of people turned up and wanted to pay separately but that happens all the time. A group of Muslims who were all together or a group of Arsenal fans who were all together etc. but all wanted to pay separately is different. It just describes a group travelling together and who they were.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to paying the driver...is this still needed? Surely these days there are enough other options, be that TVMs, online, mobile phone, call centre etc.

 

[anti-pacer]

With regard to paying the driver...is this still needed? Surely these days there are enough other options, be that TVMs, online, mobile phone, call centre etc.

I think it's still and allowed option.

 

[Qwerty133]

With regard to paying the driver...is this still needed? Surely these days there are enough other options, be that TVMs, online, mobile phone, call centre etc.

I happened to notice earlier that the NX TVM at Leicester St Margarets Bus station didn't accept £5 notes, so until such an easy to fix problem is solved yes there is a need.

 

[howittpie]

With regard to paying the driver...is this still needed? Surely these days there are enough other options, be that TVMs, online, mobile phone, call centre etc.

Many of the main cities seem to have ticket machines that are available 24/7 certainly the likes of Nottingham and Manchester do. Nat Ex also have an app to book tickets but some passengers still seem to turn up and want to buy tickets on the coach and of course not every stop has ticket machines. From observations some drivers are happy to issue tickets and others refuse not sure what the official policy is.

 

[fowler9]

With regard to paying the driver...is this still needed? Surely these days there are enough other options, be that TVMs, online, mobile phone, call centre etc.

Sometimes cold hard cash face to face is the only option some people have. I don't think it is a good thing to take that away. Even in this day and age you will be excluding large numbers of people from basic stuff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sometimes cold hard cash face to face is the only option some people have. I don't think it is a good thing to take that away. Even in this day and age you will be excluding large numbers of people from basic stuff.

Worth noting that coach tickets can be purchased for cash at most if not all Post Offices, of course. There's no reason the driver has to be the one offering that service. Indeed, there are many arguments why he should not - the relatively large amounts of cash floating around and being a risk to his personal safety being just one, the delays being another.

 

[anti-pacer]

Many of the main cities seem to have ticket machines that are available 24/7 certainly the likes of Nottingham and Manchester do. Nat Ex also have an app to book tickets but some passengers still seem to turn up and want to buy tickets on the coach and of course not every stop has ticket machines. From observations some drivers are happy to issue tickets and others refuse not sure what the official policy is.

Unless it's changed, it was policy that drivers HAD to issue tickets if seats were available. They also got commission for doing so, but it can't have been much as most drivers I know hated it.

 

[fowler9]

Worth noting that coach tickets can be purchased for cash at most if not all Post Offices, of course. There's no reason the driver has to be the one offering that service. Indeed, there are many arguments why he should not - the relatively large amounts of cash floating around and being a risk to his personal safety being just one, the delays being another.

Yeah get you. There are still plenty of people with online only cash cards, no internet access, TVM's not working etc.The world is changing very quickly but you can't just overnight tell people they can't use money any more. Anyway, straying off subject.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless it's changed, it was policy that drivers HAD to issue tickets if seats were available.

Stupid question - how do they *know* seats are available? Do they call Control? A seat with nobody sitting in it could have a passenger book it between the present location and the next stop.

 

[fowler9]

Stupid question - how do they *know* seats are available? Do they call Control? A seat with nobody sitting in it could have a passenger book it between the present location and the next stop.

If the driver doesn't know when he opens the doors that someone else has just booked a ticket online and he has no free seats then the technology is not fit for purpose unless we do indeed tell people you cannot just turn up and travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the driver doesn't know when he opens the doors that someone else has just booked a ticket online and he has no free seats then the technology is not fit for purpose unless we do indeed tell people you cannot just turn up and travel.

It's not just that he opens the doors and knows that. Consider a coach from London to Manchester stopping at Digbeth on the way. The driver may have a seat free at Digbeth, but he doesn't and can't know that as the coach passes Rugby someone is booking a seat from Digbeth.

So if he sells a ticket, he surely has to notify Control that he intends to do so, having first asked them if he has availability, so they can block the seat out so it isn't sold.

Of course it isn't beyond the realms of modern technology for the driver to have a NatEx app on his phone that would be logged in as the current journey, so once he has stopped the coach he picks it up and is able to see what availability he has, sell a ticket, validate a barcode ticket or whatever. They just don't seem to have taken that opportunity yet.

 

[fowler9]

It's not just that he opens the doors and knows that. Consider a coach from London to Manchester stopping at Digbeth on the way. The driver may have a seat free at Digbeth, but he doesn't and can't know that as the coach passes Rugby someone is booking a seat from Digbeth.

So if he sells a ticket, he surely has to notify Control that he intends to do so, having first asked them if he has availability, so they can block the seat out so it isn't sold.

Of course it isn't beyond the realms of modern technology for the driver to have a NatEx app on his phone that would be logged in as the current journey, so once he has stopped the coach he picks it up and is able to see what availability he has, sell a ticket, validate a barcode ticket or whatever. They just don't seem to have taken that opportunity yet.

Yeah mate, I understand what you are saying and it makes sense.

 

[anti-pacer]

It's not just that he opens the doors and knows that. Consider a coach from London to Manchester stopping at Digbeth on the way. The driver may have a seat free at Digbeth, but he doesn't and can't know that as the coach passes Rugby someone is booking a seat from Digbeth.

So if he sells a ticket, he surely has to notify Control that he intends to do so, having first asked them if he has availability, so they can block the seat out so it isn't sold.

Of course it isn't beyond the realms of modern technology for the driver to have a NatEx app on his phone that would be logged in as the current journey, so once he has stopped the coach he picks it up and is able to see what availability he has, sell a ticket, validate a barcode ticket or whatever. They just don't seem to have taken that opportunity yet.

Back when I worked for them they were going to introduce this all singing and dancing Coachcom system. It was going to be a satnav, traffic info, ticket machine and real-time loadings all in one. They decided against due to cost. In my humble opinion they would have made that cost back by now.

It is a big risk to travel without pre-booking your ticket first. You're right Neil in what you've said. Let me give an example of Mansfield to London coaches.

The driver would phone Control from Mansfield to get a loading chart as there wasn't any means to print one there back then. It would tell him/her how many people had booked on at each stop at that time. He/she gets part way to Nottingham and someone flags the coach down in Ravenshead (Larch Farm stop) which is a designated stop. They don't have a ticket but the loading information the driver has shows there's sufficient seats. Meanwhile us in Nottingham are happily selling tickets oblivious to the fact someone has bought a manual ticket en-route. The coach arrives in Nottingham and a new loading chart is given to the driver, this time printed. It hasn't made provisions for this other passenger. If we'd fully booked the rest of the seats, meaning a full load from Nottingham, this would cause problems as we had an extra passenger that only the driver knew about.

By rights the driver should ring Control FIRST and ask them to decrease the seating allocation by how many passengers he/she was about to sell the ticket to. Can you imagine how many drivers did that, when it could take a while to get through to Control? Not many!

They STILL to this day use loading charts which is even more problematic given that people can book tickets on apps, etc, rendering your printed loading chart often incorrect within minutes. Coachcom would have solved this as the information would have been real-time at the touch of a button.

Another thing that used to be the case and possibly still is - traffic information. The only way that drivers knew of any traffic problems ahead was via a phone call from Control, quite often AFTER the event. Coachcom was to contain real-time traffic info along with a satnav so drivers could make an informed decision regarding diverting or sitting in it.

 

[pitdiver]

Back when I worked for them they were going to introduce this all singing and dancing Coachcom system. It was going to be a satnav, traffic info, ticket machine and real-time loadings all in one. They decided against due to cost. In my humble opinion they would have made that cost back by now.

It is a big risk to travel without pre-booking your ticket first. You're right Neil in what you've said. Let me give an example of Mansfield to London coaches.

The driver would phone Control from Mansfield to get a loading chart as there wasn't any means to print one there back then. It would tell him/her how many people had booked on at each stop at that time. He/she gets part way to Nottingham and someone flags the coach down in Ravenshead (Larch Farm stop) which is a designated stop. They don't have a ticket but the loading information the driver has shows there's sufficient seats. Meanwhile us in Nottingham are happily selling tickets oblivious to the fact someone has bought a manual ticket en-route. The coach arrives in Nottingham and a new loading chart is given to the driver, this time printed. It hasn't made provisions for this other passenger. If we'd fully booked the rest of the seats, meaning a full load from Nottingham, this would cause problems as we had an extra passenger that only the driver knew about.

By rights the driver should ring Control FIRST and ask them to decrease the seating allocation by how many passengers he/she was about to sell the ticket to. Can you imagine how many drivers did that, when it could take a while to get through to Control? Not many!

They STILL to this day use loading charts which is even more problematic given that people can book tickets on apps, etc, rendering your printed loading chart often incorrect within minutes. Coachcom would have solved this as the information would have been real-time at the touch of a button.

Another thing that used to be the case and possibly still is - traffic information. The only way that drivers knew of any traffic problems ahead was via a phone call from Control, quite often AFTER the event. Coachcom was to contain real-time traffic info along with a satnav so drivers could make an informed decision regarding diverting or sitting in it.

Coachcomm was an excellent idea but when the idea was developed the technology did not exist as regards to mobile communication to allow it to work. The biggest problem with coach travel is that say for instance you were between Jcts 15 and 14 on the M1 and there was an incidental blocked the carriage way you would be stuc. On numerous occasions I had to deal with very irate passengers awaiting services coming south particularly those for the 230 service to Heathrow and Gatwick who were hoping to catch a flight.

 

[pitdiver]

Another complication was "Season Tickets" These were available on a few services mainly I think commuter routes. I however only had experiece of the srvices from Milton Keynes Coachway. These were a pain to book and keep records for as on a number of occasions the driver somehow missed the stop at Marble Arch so we would send to the customer a copy of our Booking references so they could see the seat as booked. If a passenger wanted to purchase an ANNUAL season this all had to be booked each journey being one transaction. This process was a nightmare.

 

[DarloRich]

When I got the bus from Leeds the driver had some kind of pre printed manifest for the whole journey showing boarding points against which he checked your name before he scanned the print at home/mobile ticket with a zapper. He wouldn't deal with any walk ups until that list was completed.

 

[bradford758]

Train v. National Express.
Timetable changes on 'National Rail' tend to be well publicised but NX have dropped some routes over the years without people knowing until checking the timetable. Tbf NX have started new routes as well.
Having a rail card and coach card makes fares not seem too bad for many journeys, and the choice is often on convenience rather than price.
Bradford to Manchester Airport: currently have to change trains v. limited through coaches.
Leeds to Gloucester, direct coach with only one refreshment stop at Digbeth
Leeds to Cheltenham, through trains but bit pricey on Cross country, have to change coaches and not convenient times??
Bradford to Hereford, train service via Manchester, the direct coach service was dropped a few years ago but there doesn't appear to be an alternative

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I can get from Newport to Waterloo for £1.50 if booked well in advance. Free travel on the X7 from Newport to Bristol with a (Wales) bus pass, then Megatrain from Temple Meads to Waterloo. Possible on two of the three Megatrains a day from Bristol to London. I think only the first ticket on each is sold for £1.

As an alternative to National Express, Newport to Birmingham can be done with a railcard and Wales concessionary pass for just over £5, again using the X7 fast bus to Chepstow with a Cross Country advance from there to New Street.

Thanks for this, I didn't know about these routes - I'll bear them in mind for the future.

Worcester isn't very well served by National Express, as the coaches don't come in to the city centre, but instead go to and from the old park and ride site by the rugby stadium.

Unfortunately, the council cancelled the park and ride service and so there isn't a public transport link between the coach stop and the city centre at all!

I think that there's still a link from the Bus Station to the rugby ground, but this probably only runs where there's a match on, so if the two don't match up, then I agree that you have a problem.


Regarding drivers selling tickets, I was once told by a driver that if they knew that there was a spare seat, then they'd sell you a ticket.

I was enquiring about Newport to Cardiff and back, so as there weren't any stops en-route, this would have worked. What he also said, though, was that he couldn't guarantee that there would be spaces on the return journey, so I could have been stranded in Cardiff as there were no trains or service buses that day. Needless to say, I didn't take the risk!

 

[DarloRich]

Worcester isn't very well served by National Express, as the coaches don't come in to the city centre, but instead go to and from the old park and ride site by the rugby stadium.

Unfortunately, the council cancelled the park and ride service and so there isn't a public transport link between the coach stop and the city centre at all!

Whereas the coachway in Milton Keynes at junction 14 of the M1 (c. 4m from town centre) is very well served by both taxis and services buses.

 

[anti-pacer]

Coachcomm was an excellent idea but when the idea was developed the technology did not exist as regards to mobile communication to allow it to work. The biggest problem with coach travel is that say for instance you were between Jcts 15 and 14 on the M1 and there was an incidental blocked the carriage way you would be stuc. On numerous occasions I had to deal with very irate passengers awaiting services coming south particularly those for the 230 service to Heathrow and Gatwick who were hoping to catch a flight.

Airport passengers were a nightmare sometimes.

Supposing someone was booked on a long haul flight at Heathrow, so 3 hours check-in required. You'd have a 230 that was due in say 10 minutes before they needed to check in, and the one before would be due in 2 hours 30 before check in. Guess which most opted for? Now that's 10 minutes at Heathrow Central, so if they were flying from T1/2/3 they'd still have to find the terminal. T4 had its own stop so that wasn't as bad. T5 wasn't built then.

We used to advise travel on an early coach, and the customers would argue with you, despite the fact you were trying to help them. They'd back down in the end when you told them that you were going to add "At Passengers Own Risk" to the ticket.

I went on a visit to the NX Heathrow travel centre and they had no end of angry passengers coming in, kicking off because they'd missed their check-in.

I saw the effects of this for myself one morning. It was my day off and pay day. I decided to have a whistlestop trip to Bournemouth as I'd never been. I got the coach at 04:25 and all was well until just after Junction 13. They were widening the M1 south of Luton at the time and we hit the early traffic, and again on the M25. It was that bad the driver had to terminate at Heathrow, meaning all Gatwick passengers had to change coaches.

Prior to even arriving at Heathrow about 8 separate passengers came down to speak to the driver, panicking they were going to miss their flights. They'd clearly not allowed enough time. If I was travelling by coach to an airport 130 miles away, on the edge of London, I'd make sure I had hours to spare!

I never made Bournemouth because I only had a 45 minute connection. I had my staff pass so it didn't matter and it wasn't essential I went there. I looked at the departure boards and opted for Portsmouth instead, and went over to the IOW.

 

[anti-pacer]

When I got the bus from Leeds the driver had some kind of pre printed manifest for the whole journey showing boarding points against which he checked your name before he scanned the print at home/mobile ticket with a zapper. He wouldn't deal with any walk ups until that list was completed.

DarloRich, it seems things may have changed a bit for the better than if they now use a zapper. "In my day" it was a pen. We crossed the ticket number off the list, which included any 'e' or 'm' tickets whose numbers were also on there.

The driver also did the right thing by making any walk-ups wait. At places where there is a NX ticket office these walk-ups are generally ones who are booked on later coaches who want to travel early. Any late arrivals who have missed an earlier coach should go and get their ticket changed, but many just chance it to avoid the amendement fee.

Hopefully what your driver also did was inform Control if he took any walk-ups. This used to be by phone although I'm guessing things may have improved now to the point where the "zapper" means a call isn't necessary.