Train hits platform buffers at Chester

[YorkshireBear]

Would it not be best to leave it to the experts (RAIB) to release their report as opposed to people speculate rather ridiculous things..?

Probably for the best.

 

[TOCDriver]

Would it not be best to leave it to the experts (RAIB) to release their report as opposed to people speculate rather ridiculous things..?

I agree but you can't say anything is ridiculous until you know the full facts of what happened

 

[jon0844]

I have my own theory as to what happened but I will wait until the report is published before I comment further.

Aliens.

 

[siw8158]

Mod note: the specific context of this post has been lost, however I've kept it on account of its insight.

Environmental policies state that the engines are to be shut down if idling more than 20 minutes. It's common practice for the engine to be shutdown as the train arrives into the platform. The shuddering you feel is from large Cummings 12 litre 750hp shutting down under your feet which tend to rattle a lot of the interior fittings at this point. There'll be enough pressure in the reservoir to operate the brakes......

A normal engine shut down will not affect the brakes or control systems......,however, if the driver were to remove his key or there was to be a Vehicle Computer or TMS Screen reset in the 604/603 car then it can disable ALL vehicle electrics and sytems!

Comments from a decade working Voyagers..............

 

[Pumbaa]

Do Voyagers have sanders?

Two shot, I think.

 

[crewmeal]

Good chance the Pretendilino will be called out to do cover some trips.

 

[jizzer]

All bay platforms have tpws positioned about 50/60 metres from the block end.
They are set to give a emergency brake application if the train goes over them at more than 10mph. Usually a driver will enter the platform up-ramp at 15 mph and bring the train speed down to 7/8 mph to go over the tpws grids and then gradually slow the train to a stop about 10 feet from the block (though you are allowed to stop as close as 6 foot from the blocks) but id say most drivers stop at about 10 foot because at 6 foot there is not much margin for error.
I've got got my own idea of what may have happened but it'll probably be common knowledge on the railway in the next couple of days. Virgin will know already what has happened after taking the driver's report and OTDR download.

 

[ilkestonian]

Do Voyagers have sanders?

AIUI, they don't operate below about 8mph.

 

[ModernRailways]

Would it not be best to leave it to the experts (RAIB) to release their report as opposed to people speculate rather ridiculous things..?

I thought we here at RailUK Detective HQ knew everything that happened? After all, those Twitter photo's make it clear that a leaf caused the train to slide and that added in with trains going into the station too fast with their engines off and I think we can safely say Case Closed. I don't even know why the RAIB need to be involved.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

"The train transferred unjustifiable amounts of momentum to the station infrastructure"

excellent.

 

[Eagle]

So what amount of momentum do you consider it justifiable to transfer to the platform structure then? :P

 

[Carlisle]

When you consider the news reported yesterday 6 cyclists have been killed on Central London's streets in the last fortnight this incident seems minuscule but of course be thoroughly investigated and any lessons learned

 

[SussexMan]

Apparently, the train hit the platform doing around 10mph and had no grip meaning the brakes were fairly ineffective, this resulted in the train ripping the buffers clean off as if they were not even there.

I would have thought that at 10mph you would have seen far more damage. I think it will have been much lower. At 10mph there would have been massive momentum in the train (how many tons does it weigh?) and think you'd have seen much more damage to the train as well as passenger injuries.

 

[rf_ioliver]

So, it was the fault of the platform builder for putting a platform there!
It was the fault of the track layer to put the buffers there and not a bigger gap between them and the platform area, increasing the stopping gap.
It was the fault of passengers not wanting to walk further to the train than caused the above gap to not be made!

Of course, we can all agree that nothing like this would have happened under BR, and it is the fault of privatisation and staff cut-backs.

Surely it is immigrants, benefits scroungers and the EU?



Ian

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes.



As I said the train has to make a deviation to the left after leaving Chester so having the Wrexham ones start from platform 2 allows them to do that without the need to cross other lines first.

If the train just didn't stop when it was supposed to it would be meet by a red signal somewhere and then if it ignored that it would have to go whichever way the points are set to not derail.

Thanks I understand your comments better now,was the train removed overnight, Chester area has had its travel problems over the past few days with the air crash,some more pics & passenger comments here

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/train-crash-chester-wrexham-man-6324687

Train crash in Chester: Wrexham man tells how passengers clung on

A passenger told how rail travellers had to hang on when a train crashed into a station barrier leaving a 64-year-old needing hospital treatment.

Tony Davies, from Wrexham, was aboard the 10.10am service arriving at Chester’s platform 1 which overran buffers at the end of the line and crashed into a platform wall.

Emergency crews were alerted at 12.10pm and raced to the station to deal with the incident.

A 64-year-old passenger was taken to hospital suffering back injuries, the North West Ambulance Service said.

Mr Davies, 48, who works at Kellogg’s on the Wrexham Industrial Estate, said: “I was travelling back from Stoke after visiting a friend the night before and was on the Virgin rain between Crewe and Chester.

 

[TDK]

Apparently, the train hit the platform doing around 10mph and had no grip meaning the brakes were fairly ineffective, this resulted in the train ripping the buffers clean off as if they were not even there.

Since they weren't there that is just what they have been told by fellow staff but it should be pretty reliable.
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Ba dum tish

I very much doubt that this was a 10mph collision, no where near enough damage. You will probably find the speed was a lot less.
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Do Virgin and ATW use the same speed on that Crewe to Chester Line, yes their speed entering platform 1 at Chester had been a concern before.

Depending on traction yes they do the same maximum line speed - the speed approaching Chester is 20mph unless signalled into P.3. Most TOC's PDP's quote 15mph at the platform ramp as a maximum when approaching buffer stops. The speed has to be below 10mph for the TPWS about 3 coach lengths away from the stops.
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Chester area has had its travel problems over the past few days with the air crash,some more pics & passenger comments here

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/train-crash-chester-wrexham-man-6324687

I don't think the air crash delayed any trains Bob as I passed the scene on a HHD service only minutes after the crash.

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't think the air crash delayed any trains Bob as I passed the scene on a HHD service only minutes after the crash.

[/QUOTE]

No it did not delay any trains,but the usual emergency procedures were put in place with Network Rail being immediately informed, I was just commenting on another travel accident near by.

Bob

 

[Ploughman]

AIUI, they don't operate below about 8mph.

Re Sanders and the response quoted above.
What happens when you need sand to get moving?

 

[6Gman]

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/train-crash-chester-wrexham-man-6324687

What is the difference between "clinging on" and "holding on" as the train comes to a halt?

 

[Eagle]

What is the difference between "clinging on" and "holding on" as the train comes to a halt?

One involves clenching the hands, whereas one also involves clenching another part of the anatomy.

 

[ilkestonian]

Re Sanders and the response quoted above.
What happens when you need sand to get moving?

Don't think they are sanders in the traditional sense, where boxes full of sand are available for the driver to use at his (or her) discretion.

I understand that Voyagers have a couple of "one shot" canisters which are essentially there for emergency use only when braking.

I'm guessing that there are enough powered axles on a Voyager to prevent significant starting problems, but am happy to be corrected by anyone in the know...

 

[ModernRailways]

Don't think they are sanders in the traditional sense, where boxes full of sand are available for the driver to use at his (or her) discretion.

I understand that Voyagers have a couple of "one shot" canisters which are essentially there for emergency use only when braking.

I'm guessing that there are enough powered axles on a Voyager to prevent significant starting problems, but am happy to be corrected by anyone in the know...

I believe you are correct with regards to the 'sanders' being used only for braking.

For any tricky starts the power handle has a small button - which if I remember correctly - is what the driver must push, this tells the train that it is a hill start or their may be wheelslip and alters the train's engines to match.

I can't remember properly, but that was what I was told by a member of staff at Bombardier Derby when I was taken around on a tour.

 

[westcoaster]

I believe you are correct with regards to the 'sanders' being used only for braking.

For any tricky starts the power handle has a small button - which if I remember correctly - is what the driver must push, this tells the train that it is a hill start or their may be wheelslip and alters the train's engines to match.

I can't remember properly, but that was what I was told by a member of staff at Bombardier Derby when I was taken around on a tour.

Hill start is used to start all trains fitted with a combined power/brake controller start away from stops without rolling back. Nothing to do with wheel slip.

 

[ModernRailways]

Hill start is used to start all trains fitted with a combined power/brake controller start away from stops without rolling back. Nothing to do with wheel slip.

Oh I know, but I believe the button can also be used to help prevent wheelslip in certain weather as it isn't just for hill starts. I could be wrong mind, since it was 3 or 4 years ago that I went for a visit

 

[Darren R]

What is the difference between "clinging on" and "holding on" as the train comes to a halt?

Journalistic exaggeration.

 

[krus_aragon]

If it just carried straight on it would actually finish up on the Wirral line opposed to the North Wales line. For North Wales the train needs to make a deviation to the left after leaving Chester.

I'd have argued that it'd have to bear right to get to the Wirral myself. If a train did plough through the buffers on platform 1, and end up on platform 2, I don't think the track layout lets reach Birkenhead without a shunt (although why a derailed runaway train would care about track layouts is unclear).

Maybe we can compromise as say it'd end up in the depot in the middle instead.
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I very much doubt that this was a 10mph collision, no where near enough damage. You will probably find the speed was a lot less.

Would 10mph when hitting the buffers (as opposed to the platfrom) be credible, or would you expect greater damage even then?

 

[talltim]

Thank god someone changed the title... the previous "platform interface crash" sounded like a load of naff management speak!

It was supposed to...
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Aghh - failed attempt to post the pics.

But, yes, ouch!

Trying again to post the pics ...

View attachment 16574

View attachment 16575

Woohoo, it worked. All hail technology!

Isn't that a copyright violation?

 

[Lockwood]

What is the difference between "clinging on" and "holding on" as the train comes to a halt?

One has a Cornish pasty stuck to its forehead?

 

[Zoidberg]

...

Isn't that a copyright violation?

Is it? I posted purely to help those unable to follow the links in your original post.

Anyway, if the moderators think I've breached protocol I'll not complain if the pics I posted are removed.

 

[Michael.Y]

Surely material posted on Twitter is in the public domain and reproducable with attribution. I don't think Zoidberg is passing those images off as his own, but he should have supplied a credit to the original photographer / tweeter.