TPE franchise awarded to First

[Tetchytyke]

Liverpool to Leeds and York will have two express trains per hour, Liverpool to Manchester will have eight trains per hour (4x express, 4x stopper).

Sounds pretty good to me.

 

[dk1]

Hearing rumours of possible MK3 rolling stock use by FTPE next year but not sure on what route. Can only imagine it would be NW/Scot. Interesting times ahead if it actually happens.

 

[Camden]

Liverpool to Leeds and York will have two express trains per hour, Liverpool to Manchester will have eight trains per hour (4x express, 4x stopper).

Sounds pretty good to me.

Again, talking only about Manchester. Liverpool isn't a commuter town of Manchester (hence the commuter stopper trains that operate predominantly in the Liverpool area...).

Of the 4 express trains per hour, how many go to Piccadilly, how many to Victoria, and how far apart from each other are they (answer, two will be possibly be half hourly, with the other two probably near to the existing two as at present).

Versus 6 evenly spaced express trains per hour.

One of those sounds "pretty good" to me, the other sounds pretty basic.

 

[sprinterguy]

442s for a couple of years before the widespread rolling out of new "pure" EMUs seems to be by far and away the simplest idea to me!

Although 19 of the new Transpennine trains have been stated as being Bi-modes (and the remaining thirteen for Transpennine North services will have to be diesel or Bi-mode, too), and there has been no mention of 442s anywhere, which would actually have to serve for the duration of the franchise before "pure" EMUs could be introduced on any services other than the Manchester/Liverpool - Scotland trains.

The delivery of the new Transpennine Express train fleet appears to be as follows:

December 2017
New trains begin to enter service to allow twice-hourly Newcastle services

December 2018
13 new 125mph trains (65 carriages) all in service on North-Transpennine route

December 2019
12 new electric trains (60 EMU carriages) all in service on Anglo-Scottish (WCML) services

December 2020
19 bi-modes (95 carriages) to be introduced on services via Newcastle (Not stated on the timeline, but has been mentioned elsewhere).

 

[cuccir]

And a rather non Liverpool oriented view that assumes that people and businesses in Liverpool would only be interested in being connected to Manchester!
If using Manchester to X journeys as an indication as to what is needed, then Manchester to Leeds appears to be very over-provided with its six express trains an hour serving half the number of passengers that travel between Manchester and Liverpool.
Prior to this announcement, the stated aim was for two trains an hour between Newcastle and Liverpool... so the inference that this is all simply to some kind of coherent, logical plan with everywhere having the appropriate service simply doesn't marry up to that.

The consultation actually dealt with this issue specifically. From page 78:

NTP3: Do you consider that the ITT should specify which services should terminate at Liverpool or Manchester Airport...

The document suggests that responses were split. As such

Whilst a lot of people thought we should specify which locations get linked to Manchester Airport and which get linked to Liverpool, there was no broad agreement from respondents on which locations should be linked...
We recognise that connections to both Manchester Airport and to Liverpool are valuable to passengers. There are substantial passenger flows from across the Pennines to both of these destinations, but not every location can have trains to the Airport and not every location can have trains to Liverpool. As we were unable to establish a strong consensus in either direction during the consultation, we are leaving the choices of destinations to bidders to decide, taking into account stakeholder views and passenger demand patterns

So to me it seems pretty clear that there was a desire for services to both, and presumably one of the attractions of First's proposals is that it has achieved that for the North-East (edit - and for several other areas too).

Happy to disagree on this one, but it does seem the better option to me.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The "six evenly spaced express trains an hour" to Leeds are, in reality, four express trains and two semi-fasts, and two of the express trains per hour will only call at Manchester Victoria.

Liverpool was always only going to get 2 TPE per hour, and First- I think wisely- have decided to split the destinations. Both will go to Huddersfield, Leeds and York, but only one will go to Newcastle and one will go to Scarborough (just as it always has).

 

[swt_passenger]

Although 19 of the new Transpennine trains have been stated as being Bi-modes (and the remaining thirteen for Transpennine North services will have to be diesel or Bi-mode, too), and there has been no mention of 442s anywhere, which would actually have to serve throughout the franchise before "pure" EMUs could be introduced on any services other than the Manchester/Liverpool - Scotland trains

I reckon people proposing 442s are clutching at straws now. There is no practical reason why new stock ordered now won't be available at the date the service uplifts begin to occur.

 

[northwichcat]

Hearing rumours of possible MK3 rolling stock use by FTPE next year but not sure on what route. Can only imagine it would be NW/Scot. Interesting times ahead if it actually happens.

TPE apparently looked at class 87 hauled mk3s on Manchester Airport to Scotland but decided they wouldn't work in the current paths due to being slower than 350s.

 

[sprinterguy]

TPE apparently looked at class 87 hauled mk3s on Manchester Airport to Scotland but decided they wouldn't work in the current paths due to being slower than 350s.

87s? That can't be right, surely? There's only one that's main line registered and, as far as I know, only three remaining in the country altogether.

 

[northwichcat]

87s? That can't be right, surely? There's only one that's main line registered and, as far as I know, only three remaining in the country altogether.

It was probably 86s then, anyway it was some 110mph capable electric loco. I think they were only looking at one Friday/Saturday diagram so that 185s wouldn't need to be used on any Scottish services, so only one set would have been required.

 

[po8crg]

I did briefly wonder about 91s turning up on the Anglo-Scottish TPE services, but they won't come off ECML until 2019, and there should be plenty of new stock by then anyway.

 

[hwl]

If the new stock is AT300 presumably it will only need 100mph capability when running on diesel (similar to the the spec on some of the original order)?

 

[po8crg]

If the new stock is AT300 presumably it will only need 100mph capability when running on diesel (similar to the the spec on some of the original order)?

May still need the extra power proposed on the Devon/Cornwall units for climbing the Pennines.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

May still need the extra power proposed on the Devon/Cornwall units for climbing the Pennines.

Wouldn't need the speed though, it's 85mph max with little prospect of raising that on the current alignment.

 

[D365]

It was probably 86s then, anyway it was some 110mph capable electric loco. I think they were only looking at one Friday/Saturday diagram so that 185s wouldn't need to be used on any Scottish services, so only one set would have been required.

I was under the impression that TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland is still timed for 100mph... As an aside, only 86101 (having been hired to FHT in the past) is capable of 110mph mainline running.

 

[northwichcat]

I was under the impression that TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland is still timed for 100mph... As an aside, only 86101 (having been hired to FHT in the past) is capable of 110mph mainline running.

Loco-hauled is slower to accelerate and requires longer dwell times though. It might not have been a loco capable of 110mph running that they looked at but I would have thought if it was that could help keep to 100mph EMUs timings even with the slower acceleration and longer dwell times.

 

[driver_m]

They would go like sh** off a shovel if there were only a four or five coaches on. A good 87 and a driver capable of getting the best out of one would easily keep to 350 timings.

 

[Bevan Price]

I was under the impression that TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland is still timed for 100mph... As an aside, only 86101 (having been hired to FHT in the past) is capable of 110mph mainline running.

Class 90 is also capable of 110 mph, as is 87002.

 

[dk1]

TPE apparently looked at class 87 hauled mk3s on Manchester Airport to Scotland but decided they wouldn't work in the current paths due to being slower than 350s.

Yeah I'd have thought that too mate. Only what was said to me the other day. Can't really say anything else. Time will tell.

 

[WatcherZero]

I was under the impression that TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland is still timed for 100mph... As an aside, only 86101 (having been hired to FHT in the past) is capable of 110mph mainline running.

Its only timed for 100 so they can substitute 185's for 350's without a serious hit to timekeeping, plan was originally that only the diagrams which were likely to be strengthened from 4car to 6car or where always 6 car operated would remain timed for 100. In the end they kept the 100 timings as it helped them recover time.

 

[Starmill]

Didn't they also not bother with 110 on the /4? I'm fairly certain that at my last run to Edinburgh we didn't exceed 100.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The 350's are 110mph capable and do run at that speed. As stated above its used for service reliability, not for timing improvements. Being an intensively used and small, isolated fleet reliability isnt exactly hitting headline figures so reduced journey times would actually cause more disruption. Think also the purpose was to keep the trains technically as similar to LM's fleet as possible for commonality of the fleet and makes redeployment easier. During the commonwealth games TPE's 350's were seen running in multiple with LM's not yet commissioned 350/3's which were built around the same time, providing additional capacity for games traffic.

 

[bluenoxid]

What are the capabilities for temporarily adapting the GW IEP fleet to a fleet suitable for TPE purposes whilst they try to sort out electrification.

 

[IanXC]

What are the capabilities for temporarily adapting the GW IEP fleet to a fleet suitable for TPE purposes whilst they try to sort out electrification.

Capabilities or options?

Capabilities would presumably be the usual items such as route clearance and so on, however...

I have a sneaking suspicion GWR are going to need them as soon as they are delivered - particularly given the dates they will be giving up some of their HSTs for ScotRail.

 

[lejog]

Again, talking only about Manchester. Liverpool isn't a commuter town of Manchester (hence the commuter stopper trains that operate predominantly in the Liverpool area...).

Of the 4 express trains per hour, how many go to Piccadilly, how many to Victoria, and how far apart from each other are they (answer, two will be possibly be half hourly, with the other two probably near to the existing two as at present).

Versus 6 evenly spaced express trains per hour.

One of those sounds "pretty good" to me, the other sounds pretty basic.

Have you actually experienced the delights of the likes of Deighton (97,000 passengers a year) and Ravensthorpe (33,000 passengers a year) to be served by these express trains to Leeds?

Let alone the rather more pleasing but hardly major destination of Marsden (population 3,000!).

 

[northwichcat]

Of the 4 express trains per hour, how many go to Piccadilly, how many to Victoria, and how far apart from each other are they (answer, two will be possibly be half hourly, with the other two probably near to the existing two as at present).

Versus 6 evenly spaced express trains per hour.

One of those sounds "pretty good" to me, the other sounds pretty basic.

The plan is for all Liverpool services to go via Chat Moss by December 17 (so Victoria only) and for all Airport services to go to Victoria and then Piccadilly and the Airport by December 17 or as soon as the Ordsall Chord is ready.

So Victoria should get a roughly clock face fast service to York every 15 minutes, Piccadilly will get a roughly half-hourly express service to York (via Victoria) and a roughly half-hourly slow service to Leeds (via Guide Bridge.)

 

[driver9000]

The 350's are 110mph capable and do run at that speed. As stated above its used for service reliability, not for timing improvements. Being an intensively used and small, isolated fleet reliability isnt exactly hitting headline figures so reduced journey times would actually cause more disruption. Think also the purpose was to keep the trains technically as similar to LM's fleet as possible for commonality of the fleet and makes redeployment easier. During the commonwealth games TPE's 350's were seen running in multiple with LM's not yet commissioned 350/3's which were built around the same time, providing additional capacity for games traffic.

TPE 350s are not permitted to run at 110mph despite being capable of 110mph.

 

[Camden]

The plan is for all Liverpool services to go via Chat Moss by December 17 (so Victoria only) and for all Airport services to go to Victoria and then Piccadilly and the Airport by December 17 or as soon as the Ordsall Chord is ready.

So Victoria should get a roughly clock face fast service to York every 15 minutes, Piccadilly will get a roughly half-hourly express service to York (via Victoria) and a roughly half-hourly slow service to Leeds (via Guide Bridge.)

I'm talking from the Liverpool traveller perspective. I start my journey generally not from Manchester. What's the breakdown of connectivity for a Liverpool traveller?

 

[Senex]

TPE 350s are not permitted to run at 110mph despite being capable of 110mph.

And does anyone know the real reason why not? I've heard various explanations, none of them entirely convincing given that similar machines are running at the higher speed over the southern WCML.

 

[158801]

My head is hurting trying to work it out but I think they can do the extra trains to Newcastle from ManchestervAirport without any additional units ?

For most of the day there is a unit sat at Newcastlev(a 1 hour turn-a-round) and a unit sag at Liverpool (also on a 1 hour turn-a-round).

By reducing this idle time and the speeding up of the Scarborough services via Chat Moss (that alone will save around 40 minutes on a round trip) I believe they can do it without an extra stock in two years time.

A typical diagram would be (theoretically)

06:05 MIA-NCL (arr 08:50) - this would have terminated at York
09:10 NCL-LIV (arr 12:10)
12:40 LIV-SCA (arr 15:30)
15:50 SCA-LIV (arr 18:35)
19:10 LIV-NCL (arr 22:10)
22:45 NCL-MIA (arr 02:40)