TPE franchise awarded to First

[Starmill]

They don't use their old logo. They simply haven't paid to have it replaced where it already existed. The 350s for example have all the newer one.

 

[Senex]

Can't they simply be called 'TransPenine'?

Some of their current services can hardly be classed as 'Express'

Can any if their present services really be called express? Some indeed hardly meet the old Foxwell & Farrer standard of more than a century ago of 40mph average end-to-end.

We are told that they are to acquire 125-mph units, which is fine, but where will these units be able to run at their maximum speed? As far as I can see, only north of York on the ECML. On the WCML the line-limit is only 110 for non-tilting stock, and I have seen no mention of tilt so far for the new trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

Can't they simply be called 'TransPenine'?

Some of their current services can hardly be classed as 'Express'

And some of their services (North West, Manchester - Scotland) can hardly be classed as "Transpennine", either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And some of their services (North West, Manchester - Scotland) can hardly be classed as "Transpennine", either.

TBH I'm still minded that they should have been merged back into Northern, particularly now Northern are getting a load of express services and TPE a load of stopping services. Utterly strange that they aren't when that is the approach being taken darn Sarf.

 

[andyb2706]

Can any if their present services really be called express? Some indeed hardly meet the old Foxwell & Farrer standard of more than a century ago of 40mph average end-to-end.

We are told that they are to acquire 125-mph units, which is fine, but where will these units be able to run at their maximum speed? As far as I can see, only north of York on the ECML. On the WCML the line-limit is only 110 for non-tilting stock, and I have seen no mention of tilt so far for the new trains.

Could it be to future proof rolling stock for the much talked about HS3? These units are going to around for 20-30 years at least, surely if HS3 gets built in that time scale they would want as much stock as possible to use it? Just a thought.....silly I know because since when has the railway looked into the furure (ie Manchester Victoria re-build in the 90's only 4 through platforms and the 10 years it took to upgrade the West Coast Main Line at the beginning of the Century and already full to capacity in some parts)

 

[sprinterguy]

TBH I'm still minded that they should have been merged back into Northern, particularly now Northern are getting a load of express services and TPE a load of stopping services. Utterly strange that they aren't when that is the approach being taken darn Sarf.

True, that - I would have thought that it would have made sense to just roll the Transpennine services into the "Northern Connect" regional express brand as part of that franchise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, that - I would have thought that it would have made sense to just roll the Transpennine services into the "Northern Connect" regional express brand as part of that franchise.

And plan to move the WCML Scottish services to West Coast where they really belong.

 

[Senex]

And plan to move the WCML Scottish services to West Coast where they really belong.

I agree completely -- and then they could be properly integrated with the other West Coast long-distance services. (Oh, but we don't do integration in Britain, do we?)

And another Scotland question. The TP Interactive Map of improvements shews only Morpeth between Newcastle and Edinburgh as receiving benefits from the new scheme of things. Does this really mean that the future service-pattern between Newcastle and Edinburgh is to be 4 trains an hour, with East Coast either non-stop or calling at Berwick, XC calling at Alnmouth and Berwick, and TP at Morpeth but not Berwick? And who is this service for? Its principal function seems to be to give Leeds a half-hourly fast service to Edinburgh, as for Liverpool and Manchester passengers the faster route will remain that via Carlisle.

 

[HH]

True, that - I would have thought that it would have made sense to just roll the Transpennine services into the "Northern Connect" regional express brand as part of that franchise.

I was under the impression that Northern Connect was an Arriva invention.

 

[sprinterguy]

I was under the impression that Northern Connect was an Arriva invention.

It is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And who is this service for? Its principal function seems to be to give Leeds a half-hourly fast service to Edinburgh, as for Liverpool and Manchester passengers the faster route will remain that via Carlisle.

I expect it is for capacity rather than speed. XC are full, but XC isn't up for renewal and TPE is, so like the Scottish services it looks like a means of providing extra capacity on XC routes without actually doing anything with XC.

When is XC up for renewal? As things are going at present, a fleet of much longer trains to allow Voyagers to run permanently doubled up perhaps looks likely - any scope for doing that earlier to avoid oddities like this?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was under the impression that Northern Connect was an Arriva invention.

The "Northern Connect" brand is, but not the concept, which is not dissimilar to the "North West Express" concept run using refurbished 156s in the 1990s, and indeed was required in the franchise.

 

[sprinterguy]

As things are going at present, a fleet of much longer trains to allow Voyagers to run permanently doubled up perhaps looks likely - any scope for doing that earlier to avoid oddities like this?

The direct award is currently being negotiated between Arriva and the DfT, which will bring the current Crosscountry franchise up to October 2019. I'm not aware of any suggestions of new or additional stock before that point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree completely -- and then they could be properly integrated with the other West Coast long-distance services. (Oh, but we don't do integration in Britain, do we?)

While it's a bit pseudo-XC, I would suggest the best way to do it would be to copy the via Brum idea and continue one of the Euston-Manchester services on to Scotland via Preston, allowing further additional through journey opportunities, including 2tph to Preston etc from MKC and the likes. The stock needed could be obtained by way of a build of IEP to use on Euston-Brum self-contained services, where the tilt makes precious little difference to running times.

 

[Stats]

And another Scotland question. The TP Interactive Map of improvements shews only Morpeth between Newcastle and Edinburgh as receiving benefits from the new scheme of things. Does this really mean that the future service-pattern between Newcastle and Edinburgh is to be 4 trains an hour, with East Coast either non-stop or calling at Berwick, XC calling at Alnmouth and Berwick, and TP at Morpeth but not Berwick? And who is this service for? Its principal function seems to be to give Leeds a half-hourly fast service to Edinburgh, as for Liverpool and Manchester passengers the faster route will remain that via Carlisle.

Extending TPE services north of Newcastle has been campaigned for by local stakeholders for some time. Ideally, Northumberland Council would like it to stop at Alnmouth and Berwick. It is my understanding that intermediate stops between Morpeth and Edinburgh have yet to be decided and perhaps it is because they can't commit to other stops just yet until the uncertainty over what capacity will be available as a result of all the outstanding track access applications with ORR. SE Northumberland RUG have said they will be campaigning for the service to stop at Cramlington.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does this really mean that the future service-pattern between Newcastle and Edinburgh is to be 4 trains an hour, with East Coast either non-stop or calling at Berwick, XC calling at Alnmouth and Berwick, and TP at Morpeth but not Berwick?

I tried to fathom this out with a couple of posts yesterday but it looks like no-one really knows yet. Morpeth only every hour seems daft.

 

[northwichcat]

We are told that they are to acquire 125-mph units, which is fine, but where will these units be able to run at their maximum speed? As far as I can see, only north of York on the ECML. On the WCML the line-limit is only 110 for non-tilting stock, and I have seen no mention of tilt so far for the new trains.

It might well be the case that without 125mph units the second Newcastle service and the Edinburgh extension of the existing one would be impossible to path.

Someone mentioned further up that apparently 125mph for non-tilting units on the WCML is possible in Lancashire but not further north in Cumbria.

Even if they are limited to 110mph initially the new trains will be built to last 30+ years, if Network Rail make some improvements to allow 115mph for non-tilting stock on the WCML in 10 years time we might be stuck with stock that can't do the maximum available speed.

 

[notaspotter]

Discussions have taken place with Siemens regarding new TPE units, new class, not seen in the UK, 100% fact but no more can be said, sorry

 

[Bletchleyite]

Discussions have taken place with Siemens regarding new TPE units, new class, not seen in the UK, 100% fact but no more can be said, sorry

Well, Siemens have of course proposed the 125mph Desiro Verve before, which could be a good choice for this purpose. Unless we are talking a Velaro-UK based on the DB ICx, which would turn TPE into a *real* InterCity operation

 

[northwichcat]

Discussions have taken place with Siemens regarding new TPE units, new class, not seen in the UK, 100% fact but no more can be said, sorry

I would hope First have had discussions with all manufacturers who would interested in building new trains for the TPE network.

 

[swt_passenger]

I would hope First have had discussions with all manufacturers who would interested in building new trains for the TPE network.

They don't legally have to though. That's how they came up with the AT300 scheme for GW in the first place; it didn't go to a competitive tender. Which is basically why so many people must be making this obvious link that TPE will also be getting AT300 derivatives, AS opposed to something else...

 

[Photohunter71]

Regarding the Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service, will that be LHCS say an 88 or 90 until something else comes along?

 

[sprinterguy]

Regarding the Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service, will that be LHCS say an 88 or 90 until something else comes along?

No, it isn't starting (the Edinburgh extension, that is) until December 2019, when new stock will be available.

You'd be hard pushed to make much use of an 88 or 90 between Manchester and York this side of 2022 anyway!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They don't legally have to though.

And nor should they. If I start a handyman business, say, and have a preference for a Ford Transit, why should I not simply go and buy one? It's my business, it succeeds or fails on my decisions, I can spend its money how I like provided any shareholder/investor is satisfied.

Government procurement is of course different, but a TOC obtaining trains isn't Government procurement. That comes in when the TOC's services are procured.

Just like LM South being a Desiro shop, there is a fair argument, for commonality of maintenance etc, for TPE to be one as well. I'm sure we'll see in the required 10 days time.

 

[Camden]

Regarding the Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service, will that be LHCS say an 88 or 90 until something else comes along?

Doubt it, it's a commuter service. Manchester to North Wales went loco hauled on some of their services to ease overcrowding, and of course then the journey times increased.

I believe in the announcement it does say that the services that require new stock won't start until new stock arrives.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But I'm wondering if this is not more about making a "nice map" for TPE services than actual demand.

As someone who fairly regularly uses XC between Leeds and Newcastle, there's very definitely the demand for 2tph Leeds to Edinburgh.

I tried to fathom this out with a couple of posts yesterday but it looks like no-one really knows yet. Morpeth only every hour seems daft.

I disagree. Morpeth has the hourly service to Newcastle, but going northbound the daytime departures are 0858, 1450 and 2000, with a couple of other early morning and late night calls. An hourly train to Edinburgh is a vast improvement. Alnmouth, Berwick and Dunbar already have hourly (or thereabouts) services to Edinburgh.

Putting a semi-fast in is going to require very careful timetabling. I would say that the capacity issues on the ECML mean that skip-stopping is inevitable.

 

[cuccir]

Those journeys aren't in place of the half hourly Liverpool to Newcastle service or any third Liverpool TPE service, and would be totally unaffected.

Assuming you're not just babbling because you're on the illogical side of an argument, you need to post comments about those services on the Northern thread.

The point I was making was that adding a TPE service from Newcastle-Manchester Airport ALSO adds a service from Newcastle-Manchester Piccadilly, which significantly improves connections to a range of destinations (operated by Nothern, Arriva Trains Wales, East Midlands trains, but relevant here because they connect to the TPE service). Given how busy Piccadilly is, my understanding is that a Newcastle-Piccadilly-Liverpool service simply isn't possible. Unless I've misunderstood something?

Newcastle - Liverpool does seem the correct option for 1 TPE train an hour but if there is to be 2, adding Newcastle - Manchester Airport seems to achieve a lot more than a second Newcastle - Liverpool service.

 

[Camden]

Yes, you are missing something.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Given how busy Piccadilly is, my understanding is that a Newcastle-Piccadilly-Liverpool service simply isn't possible. Unless I've misunderstood something?

Pretty much that. The Newcastle-Airport train will use the new Ordsall curve when it opens. It obviously cannot do that and serve Liverpool. And the whole point of the Ordsall curve is to improve Manchester-Leeds services.

Newcastle - Liverpool does seem the correct option for 1 TPE train an hour but if there is to be 2, adding Newcastle - Manchester Airport seems to achieve a lot more than a second Newcastle - Liverpool service.

Again, I agree. Liverpool to Manchester is adequately served with the combination of TPE, Northern Connect and EMT (or successor) trains. There's no need for more.

 

[Camden]

Again, I agree. Liverpool to Manchester is adequately served with the combination of TPE, Northern Connect and EMT (or successor) trains. There's no need for more.

Completely disagree, it's a jumble of services, some leaving Piccadilly, some leaving Victoria, low end connecting in to the airport.

And a rather non Liverpool oriented view that assumes that people and businesses in Liverpool would only be interested in being connected to Manchester!

If using Manchester to X journeys as an indication as to what is needed, then Manchester to Leeds appears to be very over-provided with its six express trains an hour serving half the number of passengers that travel between Manchester and Liverpool.

Prior to this announcement, the stated aim was for two trains an hour between Newcastle and Liverpool... so the inference that this is all simply to some kind of coherent, logical plan with everywhere having the appropriate service simply doesn't marry up to that.

 

[L+Y]

Discussions have taken place with Siemens regarding new TPE units, new class, not seen in the UK, 100% fact but no more can be said, sorry

Glad to hear: surely sharing all units between one manufacturer makes maintenance and such considerably easier?

442s for a couple of years before the widespread rolling out of new "pure" EMUs seems to be by far and away the simplest idea to me!