The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[313103]

I hope that its not going to happen NorthernGaurd. The RMT have put a lot of detail with this current mailing. No doubt there are people who will find fault with it, but hopefully the detail will go a long way of explaining the current postition.

 

[Flamingo]

Why don't they now stand handing copies of it out to passengers outside Swansea, Cardiff and any other station they can get to?

Be seen to make some effort to communicate with the actual passengers about what is going on, rather than letting ATW do all the running.

How much would a print run cost?

 

[O L Leigh]

Having been involved with the NXEA dispute, I can safely say that the public won't want to know. They will have read/listened to the (skewed) media reporting of the dispute and made their own minds up *laughs bitterly* that the striking workers are simply a bunch of greedy bar-stewards.

For all his bluster and comedy persona, Comrade Bob does at least have some media savvy and knows that they want a nice, simple, concise soundbite that the public will understand, and so he gives them that. However, from reports I heard from colleagues, ASLEF General Secretary Keith Norman didn't fair quite so well. He turned up on a picket line and gave a detailed explanation of the causes for the dispute to BBC Look East, outlining the deteriorating state of industrial relations, where local agreements had been breached, how the company was trying to palm off strings cheaply onto the workforce and individual cases where drivers had been unfairly dismissed as well as touching on the issue of pay. There was little spin and no real attempt at propaganda, just a full and honest explanation as to why the train drivers were standing around in the car park rather than out driving trains. Was "Auntie" interested in all that...? Nope. His excellent explanation was trimmed down in the edit suite to the soundbite that they wanted. Yup. Ladies and gentlemen, we are striking over pay.

It really isn't worth going to all the effort. When I was out picketing I always tried to make myself approachable to any members of the public who wanted to know more. I spoke to a few and they went away better informed as a result. However, there were still quite a few who simply drove/walked past and hurled insults without the courtesy of stopping to find out what we were really up to and neither the interest nor desire to do so.

But then, as I've said on other occasions, this really isn't a popularity contest. It is regrettable whenever the public gets caught up in the middle, but to be brutally honest whether you have the public's support or not really doesn't matter. I do think that they are owed and explanation as to why their service has been disrupted and I would never shy away from giving one, but there really is nothing to be gained by putting lots of effort in trying to woo them. Those who are interested will ask and those who aren't will hurl abuse from the sidelines.

As a postscript, the NXEA dispute ended up with the drivers accepting a lower award than the company's full offer in return for losing the strings that the company had attached.

O L Leigh

 

[chuckles1066]

Having been involved with the NXEA dispute, I can safely say that the public won't want to know. They will have read/listened to the (skewed) media reporting of the dispute and made their own minds up *laughs bitterly* that the striking workers are simply a bunch of greedy bar-stewards.

Do you not think that they're thinking "that the striking workers are simply a bunch of fortunate to have a job greedy bar-stewards"

<my comments in italics>

Genuine question.

 

[1V53]

Possibly, but not everybody wants to poach others jobs for less or see people lose their conditions for very little return. Some can see that it's a good thing to protect conditions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also not everybody that loses their job begrudges those who haven't lost theirs protecting and fighting for their pay and conditions.

 

[Metroland]

Do you not think that they're thinking "that the striking workers are simply a bunch of fortunate to have a job greedy bar-stewards"

<my comments in italics>

Genuine question.

Be interesting to know if anyone outside the union activist fraternity actually agrees with them? I'm just interested. Speak now if you agree and tell us why.

My gut feeling is the views expressed by CS and myself are held by the vast majority of people, most folk on here don't want to get involved in arguments so aren't saying too much, and would only be insulted or accused of trolling. Most politicians and management are also shy of taking them on, because they will just strike.

Certainly what is displayed above is quite typical of some union members who gang up on people who don't agree with them. Some people have been forced off the railways for not following strikes, or bullied. It gives social reformists a bad name, and most unions and left wing politicians (like Ken Livingstone) and commentators (like Christian Wolmar) don't have much good to say about the tactics of the RMT and ASLEF because they are entirely confrontational.

Even on the railways themselves, some people think the unions are too militant and the train crew grades in particular are cosseted. Certainly that's the view held by the pway, S&T, signalling, station, and most of the management grades.

 

[GB]

Certainly that's the view held by the pway, S&T, signalling, station, and most of the management grades.

A spokesperson for these grades are you?

 

[Metroland]

A spokesperson for these grades are you?

*shrug* That's the discussions I have, and it's fairly universally held.

 

[GB]

Fair enough.

 

[tirphil]

Railway Management. Now there is a cossetted grade.

 

[Metroland]

Railway Management. Now there is a cossetted grade.

Do tell?

 

[313103]

I echo O L Leigh sentiments, having been involved in numerous strikes throughout my 30 years, i go onto a picket line knowing the reason why im doing it and therefore better informed to pass on to the passenger. I approach people and that makes it easy to engage with people who are being affected. On the whole most passengers once they are better informed, go away contented knowing that i wouldnt choose to walk the 7 miles at silly oclock in the morning to go on a picket line in all kinds of weather.

The problem with giving interviews to the press is that they do what they want to do just as O L Leigh has mentioned most of the interview ends up on the cutting room floor.
So when it is played to the wider audience it nothing like what was originally given.

 

[TDK]

The drivers do have the added issue of falling behind on pay, so there is a not insignificant element that want what XC are on, without their worse conditions!!

Well, I think originally that is what the drivers were looking for, I think they have been grossly misguided to even think they will get Parity with XC and to say they want parity but not the same T & C is a massive misjudgment on whoever put this to them.

You cannot ask for parity and then say "No we don't want Sundays". ATW drivers have fallen behind because they have either voted in pay deals that span too long ( a 3 year pay deal I never accepted anything more that 6 month or at a max a year with Southern) or unfortunately their negociaters were not forward enough with their plans originally, either way ATW drivers have fallen behind and speaking on a reality basis can only blame their negociators and not ATW, now thay are well behind we have come to the strike scenario, as for the Management spokesman to refer their drivers as driving the comparison to a milk float just shows really what the upper management think of their staff.

 

[CosherB]

No we didn't, but what we did find was that captain speaking doesnt like it when posed with difficult questions,

My posting history on here shows that to be absolute tosh. A lot of poorly-argued out-of-touch-with-the world-outside-the-railway stuff has been put up by you and couple of others which is so easy to refute that you just ignore the points I (and Metro) make when I do so, and simply accuse me of union-bashing or expecting rail workers to work for starvation wages.

If you are not prepared to read what I post and post a cogent reply which, if you disagree with what I post, states why you think I'm wrong rather than just chucking cliched insults my way then we cannot have a civilised discussion.

But I suspect, since you don't seem able to put up a sensible argument to support your view, that's what you want.:roll:

 

[1V53]

Well, I think originally that is what the drivers were looking for, I think they have been grossly misguided to even think they will get Parity with XC and to say they want parity but not the same T & C is a massive misjudgment on whoever put this to them.

You cannot ask for parity and then say "No we don't want Sundays". ATW drivers have fallen behind because they have either voted in pay deals that span too long ( a 3 year pay deal I never accepted anything more that 6 month or at a max a year with Southern) or unfortunately their negociaters were not forward enough with their plans originally, either way ATW drivers have fallen behind and speaking on a reality basis can only blame their negociators and not ATW, now thay are well behind we have come to the strike scenario, as for the Management spokesman to refer their drivers as driving the comparison to a milk float just shows really what the upper management think of their staff.

I'd disagree with not agreeing to 2-3 year pay deals. Some which are x% or RPI are very valuable.

As for those who complain about RMT and Aslef and traincrew, well this is the best job I have had and is well paid. Cossetted? Possibly. Suits me. Maybe those slating them would have better pay and conditions if they had a decent union fighting for them and more gumption to fight for their rights? "the end is nigh" they scream. Well if it is then at least we will have enjoyed a good Cossetted overpaid job for a few years. Je ne regretté rien.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

My posting history on here shows that to be absolute tosh. A lot of poorly-argued out-of-touch-with-the world-outside-the-railway stuff has been put up by you and couple of others which is so easy to refute that you just ignore the points I (and Metro) make when I do so, and simply accuse me of union-bashing or expecting rail workers to work for starvation wages.

If you are not prepared to read what I post and post a cogent reply which, if you disagree with what I post, states why you think I'm wrong rather than just chucking cliched insults my way then we cannot have a civilised discussion.

But I suspect, since you don't seem able to put up a sensible argument to support your view, that's what you want.:roll:

Your posting history suggests you are more like a Troll

 

[1V53]

My posting history on here is full of absolute tosh

At last something we can agree on!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

At last something we can agree on!

lol agreed

 

[CosherB]

Do you think displaying your level of intellect by posting a made-up quote from me is in the least clever or amusing?

If you do, you are worse than I thought. Stuff at the bottom of my garden pond has a higher intellect than that.

If you don't, why did you do it?

It does at least display not only your intellect, but also that you have no argument to defend your views.

Do I await in vain a sensible reply? Are either of you three capable of it?

 

[notadriver]

Hey Captain Speaking, i wanted to ask you if you thought that the wages, terms and conditions of on board rail staff (conductors and drivers) would go down or up if there was an open market as there is for airline pilots/crew?

 

[1V53]

Do you think displaying your level of intellect by posting a made-up quote from me is in the least clever or amusing?

If you do, you are worse than I thought. Stuff at the bottom of my garden pond has a higher intellect than that.

If you don't, why did you do it?

It does at least display not only your intellect, but also that you have no argument to defend your views.

Do I await in vain a sensible reply? Are either of you three capable of it?

Well you accused me of not having a sense of humour earlier in the thread, now I have a little fun and you get all sulky! By the way I may lack intellect but I do know that "either of you three" is gramatically incorrect.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Do you think displaying your level of intellect by posting a made-up quote from me is in the least clever or amusing?

If you do, you are worse than I thought. Stuff at the bottom of my garden pond has a higher intellect than that.

If you don't, why did you do it?

It does at least display not only your intellect, but also that you have no argument to defend your views.

Do I await in vain a sensible reply? Are either of you three capable of it?

Sorry too busy laughing

 

[1V53]

Oh and I don't need to defend myself. As I say I am well paid, have a cushy job and can strike if I dont get what I want. Life is good.

 

[notadriver]

oh god grammatically incorrect or not but 'you three' are funny

 

[313103]

My posting history on here shows that to be absolute tosh. A lot of poorly-argued out-of-touch-with-the world-outside-the-railway stuff has been put up by you and couple of others which is so easy to refute that you just ignore the points I (and Metro) make when I do so, and simply accuse me of union-bashing or expecting rail workers to work for starvation wages.

If you are not prepared to read what I post and post a cogent reply which, if you disagree with what I post, states why you think I'm wrong rather than just chucking cliched insults my way then we cannot have a civilised discussion.

But I suspect, since you don't seem able to put up a sensible argument to support your view, that's what you want.:roll:

You know what my dear friend?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you think displaying your level of intellect by posting a made-up quote from me is in the least clever or amusing?

If you do, you are worse than I thought. Stuff at the bottom of my garden pond has a higher intellect than that.

If you don't, why did you do it?

It does at least display not only your intellect, but also that you have no argument to defend your views.

Do I await in vain a sensible reply? Are either of you three capable of it?

And Metroland thinks this poor soul is being picked on. Where is the smiley with the head banging against the wall?

Do not expect a response, i am hoping he does what you do to me (when it suits you of course). See my first post on page 20 of this thread.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

at least Metroland treats people with some respect, I may not agree with Metroland but I can appreciate his views.

 

[O L Leigh]

My gut feeling is the views expressed by CS and myself are held by the vast majority of people, most folk on here don't want to get involved in arguments so aren't saying too much, and would only be insulted or accused of trolling.

That is true for both sides of the discussion. Unfortunately people are more interested in arguing about their posting records and style than discussing the topic in hand.

I had hoped to have dragged things back on-topic but it seems all I've succeeded in doing is giving the pot another stir. :roll:

O L Leigh

 

[1V53]

at least Metroland treats people with some respect, I may not agree with Metroland but I can appreciate his views.

Hear hear.

 

[TDK]

Hear hear.

Why can't you people just keep to the topic and have a proper discussion on the thread instead of ripping each other all the time. This forum has gone down hill rapidly, poor modding in my opinion

 

[1V53]

I think if you check I posted the RMT press release which was totally on topic. It was a poster who insisted on coming on subsequently making personal remarks which drag it down. I agree that those that continue to make comments about members intelligence should be given a firm kick. I guess I am at fault for being a bit mischievous in altering a quote and posting tongue in cheek remarks but its all a bit of fun, light hearted banter in response to personal insults from CS which are unnecessary.