The real facts behind the ATW potential strike please

[FrozenPoints]

I am not sure if I can rely on the BBC on this occasion but I am wondering, what is the real issues behind the ATW strike.

Are drivers seriously asking for a 12% pay rise over 2 years?

Taking their pay (Or I assume the top level for drivers) to just under 40k?

 

[route:oxford]

I am not sure if I can rely on the BBC on this occasion but I am wondering, what is the real issues behind the ATW strike.

Are drivers seriously asking for a 12% pay rise over 2 years?

Taking their pay (Or I assume the top level for drivers) to just under 40k?

Will this include Gerald, or is it operated by DB?

 

[TDK]

Will this include Gerald, or is it operated by DB?

Gerald is operated by ATW and funded by the WAG, ATW is run by DB
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not sure if I can rely on the BBC on this occasion but I am wondering, what is the real issues behind the ATW strike.

Are drivers seriously asking for a 12% pay rise over 2 years?

Taking their pay (Or I assume the top level for drivers) to just under 40k?

Is it ASLEF or the RMT going out on strike?

 

[FrozenPoints]

Gerald is operated by ATW and funded by the WAG, ATW is run by DB
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Is it ASLEF or the RMT going out on strike?

ASLEF, rather than RMT. A bit of ignorant suprise from myself.

 

[trainophile]

I hadn't heard about this latest planned strike. When it is scheduled for?

 

[whoosh]

It will certainly not be a straight pay rise if that's the percentage figure being talked about. There will be mighty big strings attached (i.e. changes to terms and conditions). That's why whenever you see a large percentage rise turned down by the workers it's the changes to the conditions that are the issue, although that will always be glossed over or not mentioned by the press.

 

[Maxfly]

I think part of the issue is as stated not to do with the money but the conditions, one that i can make out is Sundays are no longer refusable and will be part of the working week

 

[TDK]

I think part of the issue is as stated not to do with the money but the conditions, one that i can make out is Sundays are no longer refusable and will be part of the working week

The reasons are over pay - the ATW drivers want parity with other companies as they are one of the least paid in the area but for them to get the pay they want the will have to accept the other companies working conditions that do include Sundays on a more compulsary basis, it looks to me to be a catch 22 situation and I can't see the ATW management bowing down to this one so this may be a lengthy campain

 

[Maxfly]

The reasons are over pay - the ATW drivers want parity with other companies as they are one of the least paid in the area but for them to get the pay they want the will have to accept the other companies working conditions that do include Sundays on a more compulsary basis, it looks to me to be a catch 22 situation and I can't see the ATW management bowing down to this one so this may be a lengthy campain

Ah, that makes sense Does sound like a catch 22 like you say. How easy was it for other companies to get that in?

 

[9K43]

As usual ASLEF will get what they want, and it will be paid for by other grades in the company.
The nice thing about drivers is that if they pull the plug, nowt will move.
If ATW managers want a profit, they will have to cave into the drivers.
ASLEF disputes always attract nearly 100% turnout all the time.

 

[FrozenPoints]

I think part of the issue is as stated not to do with the money but the conditions, one that i can make out is Sundays are no longer refusable and will be part of the working week

On a tenious but seperate note,

Sundays should be a working day, regardless, not indicative of this current ATW dispute!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

NO disrespect to the Drivers, but typical ASLEF they will get want they want and ATW will just claim no more money is available to the other grades, thats what happens at Northern all the time, we have a 15K pay difference between Drivers and Guards which is absolutely disgraceful, most drivers will agree, its not the Drivers fault obviously but it gets to a point in most guards eyes that they get what they want while the rest suffer.

 

[nedchester]

On a tenious but seperate note,

Sundays should be a working day, regardless, not indicative of this current ATW dispute!

Yep the railways are a 7 day a week operation and Sundays should be part of the working week. What's so special about Sundays after all it's not like the churches are full of railway staff on that day?!!!

 

[GB]

Yep the railways are a 7 day a week operation and Sundays should be part of the working week. What's so special about Sundays after all it's not like the churches are full of railway staff on that day?!!!

Not this old chesnut again surely?

 

[Failed Unit]

If they want a 7 day a week railway you need to compensate the staff - simples. Would you alter your working week without it?

 

[driverchris52]

Yep the railways are a 7 day a week operation and Sundays should be part of the working week. What's so special about Sundays after all it's not like the churches are full of railway staff on that day?!!!

Why must it be part of the working week? Have you ever/do you work on Sundays? If yes then we can discuss this. If no..... leave it to those of us who do work on Sundays.

 

[SS4]

If they want a 7 day a week railway you need to compensate the staff - simples. Would you alter your working week without it?

Chances are they won't be given a choice. They'll find a way to 'release' staff and then re-recruit them under new, less generous terms which could include working on a Sunday. It's not like the government is going to do anything, they already altered the law to deny PCS' high court victory over pensions in the summer

 

[HSTfan!!!]

ATW will just claim no more money is available to the other grades, thats what happens at Northern all the time

Drivers are going to have to accept they can't have their cake and eat it, it's all well and good saying we want to be paid the same as other companies, but those other companies have tougher terms & conditions. In fairness although it's not "12%" it's still not a bad deal. They're just frightened of losing sundays as they are a bargaining tool at the moment. Thing is at the end of the day, if you want a certain pay deal, move to a company that's offering it, theres plenty of people out there who will do the drivers job for a fraction of the cost - admittedly it would cost to train these people.
Guards have been offered a pretty poor deal that whilst it sounds good on paper would technically give them a paycut.
Station staff were offered a reasonable deal (for those on ATW contracts rather than ex BR etc at least) which the RMT turned down, there has now been a revised 3 year deal which is not all that different to the last one, except it's been recommended to accept it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Chances are they won't be given a choice. They'll find a way to 'release' staff and then re-recruit them under new, less generous terms which could include working on a Sunday. It's not like the government is going to do anything, they already altered the law to deny PCS' high court victory over pensions in the summer

You under estimate the unions. If they even tried they would fight back to avoid divide and conquer tactics.

 

[BestWestern]

FGW drivers previously accepted a pay deal which equated to about 18% but which removed the option of refusing to work booked sunday turns. Sounds as though Arriva have tabled something similar here but the unions won't buy it. The Guards at FGW were asked to do similar, but the RMT flatly refused to even discuss what could have been on the table, and pretty much acknowledged that sundays were their trump card for causing chaos and so any financial compensation was not sufficient for them, never mind how the staff actually may have felt about it all. I think Arriva drivers also have an axe to grind as their XC cousins are considerably better paid, for arguably easier work, again a similar situation to FGW where the HST drivers are better paid than the local boys. I was at Cardiff Central today and ironically the local paper seller had the possible strike as the headline at the station paper stand.

 

[nedchester]

Why must it be part of the working week? Have you ever/do you work on Sundays? If yes then we can discuss this. If no..... leave it to those of us who do work on Sundays.

Nope I don't work Sundays but there again I don't operate in an industry which operates on a Sunday - my choice.

Is all this Sunday working an issue with the Police, Fire fighters, Doctors, Nurses etc?

What's so special about working Sundays anyhow?

 

[Greenback]

What is so specail about working Sundays? Only someone who doesn;t work them would ask!

Seriously though, I worked a lot of Sundays when I was young and single. And when I wa sina long distance relationship. The extra money came in handy, and I had long weekends when I could be with a partner - I never worked a Sunday on those weekends, that was my choice!

But as you get older, settle down and have a family, things change. When you work unsocial hours it does play havoc with your family and social life. On a week of lates you will only see your love dones on rest days, which will probably be when the children are in school for most of the day and the partner is at work. Realistivally, Sunday is the only opportunity for many people to enjoy a 'family day'.

Having said that, I would like to know more about the other strings (there are bound to be some) attached to this deal. I think there may be more involved than just a few Sundays a year.

 

[Failed Unit]

No issue about working Sunday's if it is already in your contract. People like spending time with their family, recovering from hangovers etc on a Sunday. They can do this on other days but the chances are their drinking buddies are working or the kids are a school.

Would you just change you contract to have Sunday's as part of the week? I wouldn't unless there was something in it for me that was worth more than I was giving up.

As for including Sundays on the new starts contracts. I am sure the TOCs have tried this, but nothing works better to get a devided workforce with low morale then lots of different contracts for people doing the same job. The company will often force changes on the old contracts by asking for everyone to vote. The people on new contracts abstain ascot doesn't effect them so the have forced the change by the divide and conquer approach.

 

[driverchris52]

Nope I don't work Sundays but there again I don't operate in an industry which operates on a Sunday - my choice.

Is all this Sunday working an issue with the Police, Fire fighters, Doctors, Nurses etc?

What's so special about working Sundays anyhow?

That's the point. The railways do operate on a Sunday but if my terms and conditions for the last 37 years have always allowed me to choose not to then I am not going to except a change to those conditions without some sort of compensation. There is also the fact that a Sunday is overtime. If it is brought into the week then I will want to see my pay rise by at least the amount that I would have earned by working my booked Sundays. But it's not just about money. I have no problem with working on a Sunday but I know some men who do none at all. It's the one day a week that is always theirs. It's an emotional issue and maybe difficult for someone not in the industry to grasp.

 

[TDK]

NO disrespect to the Drivers, but typical ASLEF they will get want they want and ATW will just claim no more money is available to the other grades, thats what happens at Northern all the time, we have a 15K pay difference between Drivers and Guards which is absolutely disgraceful, most drivers will agree, its not the Drivers fault obviously but it gets to a point in most guards eyes that they get what they want while the rest suffer.

Yes - But the RMT are also calling for strike action as well

 

[nedchester]

What is so specail about working Sundays? Only someone who doesn;t work them would ask!

Seriously though, I worked a lot of Sundays when I was young and single. And when I wa sina long distance relationship. The extra money came in handy, and I had long weekends when I could be with a partner - I never worked a Sunday on those weekends, that was my choice!

But as you get older, settle down and have a family, things change. When you work unsocial hours it does play havoc with your family and social life. On a week of lates you will only see your love dones on rest days, which will probably be when the children are in school for most of the day and the partner is at work. Realistivally, Sunday is the only opportunity for many people to enjoy a 'family day'.

Having said that, I would like to know more about the other strings (there are bound to be some) attached to this deal. I think there may be more involved than just a few Sundays a year.

How do those who work for the police, fire service, ambulance, power workers, doctors, nurses, telecommunications etc manage then? Sorry but if you work for a 24/7 operation then you should expect that you might be required to work on Sundays.

I appreciate the family argument (I have kids) but I have CHOSEN to work in a job that doesn't operate on Sundays. Railway workers have. Sounds harsh but that's the reality.

 

[Failed Unit]

How do those who work for the police, fire service, ambulance, power workers, doctors, nurses, telecommunications etc manage then? Sorry but if you work for a 24/7 operation then you should expect that you might be required to work on Sundays.

I appreciate the family argument (I have kids) but I have CHOSEN to work in a job that doesn't operate on Sundays. Railway workers have. Sounds harsh but that's the reality.

Because it is clearly written in their contracts! It isn't in many railway contracts so a change needs compensation just like GNER did when the included Sunday in their working week. They made an offer that was agreeable.

If Sundays were included in the contract what would you do with depots with no Sunday work. You could argue all lines need a Sunday service but many don't and those that do don't operate at weekday frequencies.

 

[GB]

How do those who work for the police, fire service, ambulance, power workers, doctors, nurses, telecommunications etc manage then? Sorry but if you work for a 24/7 operation then you should expect that you might be required to work on Sundays.

I appreciate the family argument (I have kids) but I have CHOSEN to work in a job that doesn't operate on Sundays. Railway workers have. Sounds harsh but that's the reality.

No. The railway workers chose the job that states in their contract they are not required to work Sundays if the don't want to.

Its all well and good quoting other industries work Sundays, but without knowing the details and specifics of their employees contracts and how the sunday working came about and what the staff get in return its all pretty irrelevent.

(my bold)

 

[Greenback]

How do those who work for the police, fire service, ambulance, power workers, doctors, nurses, telecommunications etc manage then? Sorry but if you work for a 24/7 operation then you should expect that you might be required to work on Sundays.

I appreciate the family argument (I have kids) but I have CHOSEN to work in a job that doesn't operate on Sundays. Railway workers have. Sounds harsh but that's the reality.

As has already been pointed out, those who choose to work for the police, fire service etc will be aware from their contract whether Sunday working is required or not, and if so, how often and on what terms. (not all employees of these organisations have to work on Sundays, I know of plenty of health staff on a Monday to Friday working week for example).

With ATW, we are atalkign about a group of employees who do not have to work Sundays, being requested to move towards a position where they will have to work some Sundays.

I don't know who you work for, obviously, but if your company policy or operation changed and they wanted to introduce Sunday working, would you honestly be happy with the change to your working pattern and little compensation?

 

[87015]

I don't know who you work for, obviously, but if your company policy or operation changed and they wanted to introduce Sunday working, would you honestly be happy with the change to your working pattern and little compensation?

I'd take 12% as pretty good compensation. Thats more than 10x the going rate for most other grades.