The line to Beddau: Can it be done?

[tiptoptaff]

I pose this question to mainly those of you who know the area. Various SEWTA reports mention reopening the Llantristant & Taff Vale line from Pontyclun to Beddau. I have a special interest as my house is built on the land of the old Llantrisant MPD, and backs on to the exchnage sidings left in situ when the line closed back in the 80s. My question is simple, is re-opening the line a reaslistic venture?
For those of you who wan to weigh in but don't know the area - line is technically mothballed. The major bridges and level crossings on the route remain in situ. The crossover to the mainline at Pontyclun is no longer there, however it is due for resignalling (I believe, I may be wrong there). What I can work to be the original track aliginment has seen some major housing and retail developments over it, but a sort of path still can exist.

Thanks

 

[Solaris]

Best option is this..... http://www.clickonwales.org/2013/01/wales-needs-own-crossrail-project/

The Valley Line Electrification project will deliver a huge shot in the arm for the Welsh economy and will be the most significant investment in Welsh rail infrastructure since the Severn Tunnel was opened. What is in effect the first phase of a South Wales Metro will help the economy of the whole region. An electrified rail network will not only enhance connectivity, but will be more environmentally friendly and less costly to operate.

Whilst the benefits to the Valleys are clear – including faster and more frequent journeys to Cardiff – the benefits for Cardiff residents are more limited. This is especially true for 150,000 people across Cardiff – especially in the east from Roath to St Mellons which currently are not connected to the regional rail network.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Hi, the line to Beddau, or specifically the Cwm Colliery sidings is reserved (AFAIU) and technically usable (with a "bit" of reballasting, new track and reconnection at Pontyclun etc). So, no major shopstoppers there other than money and political will.

The bridge at Cross-Inn was hit back in the early 1990's by a truck and was repaired at the time so even back then a reopening possibility existed. But there are plans for an hourly Beddau-Pontyclun-Cardiff services IIRC.

East towards Llantwit Faerdef and Tonteg is lost with houses on the former line. The new bypass at Tonteg obliterates pretty much everything around there.

Of the lines in that area, the route from St Ffagans to Creigiau is also available and I guess from there via Rhiwsaeson to Cross-Inn (though might need a bridge over the A473 (possibilities of a Llantrisant-Creigiau-Cardiff route, though the junction at Cross-Inn is facing the wrong way. Also north from Creigiau to Efail Isaf is also possible, though Efail Isaf station is now someone's garden. Not sure how much the bypass has removed traces between Efail Isaf and Tonteg (walked it many times as a kid).

Wikipedia article on this line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llantrisant_and_Taff_Vale_Junction_Railway

and some great photographs (thumbnails mainly) can be found here: http://www.trackbed.com/pages/location_tonteg.htm

Ian

t.

Ian
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Best option is this..... http://www.clickonwales.org/2013/01/wales-needs-own-crossrail-project/

Tram-train, Ponyclun-Llantwit-Tonteg-Trefforest

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hi, the line to Beddau, or specifically the Cwm Colliery sidings is reserved (AFAIU) and technically usable (with a "bit" of reballasting, new track and reconnection at Pontyclun etc). So, no major shopstoppers there other than money and political will.

The halt that served Beddau seems to have been some distance from the centre of the village. It was originally named World's End, before being given a name of Beddau Halt.

 

[rf_ioliver]

The halt that served Beddau seems to have been some distance from the centre of the village. It was originally named World's End, before being given a name of Beddau Halt.

Yep, that's located at the bridge over the the lane to Rhiwsaeson, about 50m south of the A473 junction (is that road still called the A473 after new bypass was completed?).

I think the idea now is to build a new station actually in Tynant on the site of the former Cwm sidings,

t.

Ian

 

[tiptoptaff]

It was my understanding (through use of a well known online mapping service) that Tesco's foundations had been built on the trackbed, and the line can no longer pass through the estate between Peacocks and Cross-Inn...I take it that it can?

 

[swcovas]

Assuming that the desire would be through running to Cardiff surely the biggest problem would be capacity on the SWML especially with plans for a half hourly Maesteg service.

 

[tiptoptaff]

That has been mentioned before - can be an issue, however with resignalling it could we worked out. Another option is a Beddua shuttle, timed to depart just after a service arriving from cardiff, to return in time to connect with one departing to Cardiff, something easily achieved with the half-hourly running of trains to/from Maesteg

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Would the mods please change the heading to 'Beddau' before it becomes accepted as the the correct spelling.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Would the mods please change the heading to 'Beddau' before it becomes accepted as the the correct spelling.

Apologies, it was a typo....

 

[quarella]

Looking at satellite version of an online map I can see a couple of issues. The NIMBYs in the houses built adjacent since the last services ran and the level crossing across the A473 with the current perceived safety aspect.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Looking at satellite version of an online map I can see a couple of issues. The NIMBYs in the houses built adjacent since the last services ran and the level crossing across the A473 with the current perceived safety aspect.

I live in one of those houses......:roll:

But yes, the level crossing would require a lot of work to interlock and approach lock, as it was driver operated previously (from what I can tell from the stop boards on the line), but that would go hand in ahnd with the new signalling that would need to go in. The major cahllenge I feel is the relyaing of the junctions on the SWML. It's one part of the project that can't be avoided. Signalling could be, by way of absolute block.

Maybe some semaphores, that'd be nice....

**** it!! Let's go all out. I'll finance a pannier and some Mk1s - anyone want in on the Pontyclun and Beddau Steam Commuter Railway Company?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Looking at satellite version of an online map I can see a couple of issues. The NIMBYs in the houses built adjacent since the last services ran and the level crossing across the A473 with the current perceived safety aspect.

The level crossing shouldn't be much of a problem. It is well sited and is not likely to cause much of a delay to road traffic. NIMBYs, of course, are something else but it's not as if there are going to be trains every five minutes.
There was a great deal of fuss from people living alongside the new station at Pyle before it was opened but that hasn't stopped it from gaining in popularity, year on year.

 

[gwilisandt]

and some great photographs (thumbnails mainly) can be found here: http://www.trackbed.com/pages/location_tonteg.htm

Beware of this site. As you say some very interesting looking photos, but they are so small its very hard to see exactly what is in the photo, and he wants £3 per photo! I dont know what planet this guy is on but its certainly not earth.
If he wants to charge these hideous amounts then at least show us bigger photos so we know what is in it and weather its worth the cost. The Tonteg page is what the whole site should be like, I certainly would not buy from just small thumbnails, you are buying virtually blind.
I did ask for some larger thumbnails of an area I was interested in a few years ago and got a very short, obnoxious email back basically asking for money.
He can stuff his site as far as im concerned, poor Brian Mills must be turning in his grave. His photos have been hi-jacked to do nothing than make money. It could be an amazing resource for those interested in South Wales railways, but its kept behind a veil of greed away from a wider, appreciative, audience.

 

[Kingston Flyer]

Maybe some semaphores, that'd be nice....

**** it!! Let's go all out. I'll finance a pannier and some Mk1s - anyone want in on the Pontyclun and Beddau Steam Commuter Railway Company?

Err, yeah. Defo count me in on that. I've wanted to for donkeys years.

 

[anthony263]

The level crossing shouldn't be much of a problem. It is well sited and is not likely to cause much of a delay to road traffic. NIMBYs, of course, are something else but it's not as if there are going to be trains every five minutes.
There was a great deal of fuss from people living alongside the new station at Pyle before it was opened but that hasn't stopped it from gaining in popularity, year on year.

I remember my parents commenting on that. I can just imagine everyones reactions to a tramlink from Porthcawl to Pyle and Kenfig Hill etc.

A lot of the branch between Pyle and Cefn Cribwr Junction is a cycle path although there is a doctors surgery built on the track bed where the line used to pass under the main road at Kenfig Hill.The bridge in Kenfig Hill has also gone and the road lowered.

As for the Pontyclun -Beddau branch I personally think a half hourly shuttle from Pontyclun connecting with mainline services to Maesteg, Cardiff & Ebbw Vale etc.

 

[Quakers Yard]

I've wondered when that crossing was last used over the A473.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Err, yeah. Defo count me in on that. I've wanted to for donkeys years.

Fantastic - Personally I feel it's the best option, as it will **** off the NIMBYs more than modern traction, and it's waaaaaaaay more fun

 

[swcovas]

I remember my parents commenting on that. I can just imagine everyones reactions to a tramlink from Porthcawl to Pyle and Kenfig Hill etc.

A lot of the branch between Pyle and Cefn Cribwr Junction is a cycle path although there is a doctors surgery built on the track bed where the line used to pass under the main road at Kenfig Hill.The bridge in Kenfig Hill has also gone and the road lowered.

As I recently commented on the "Metro Vision for Cardiff" thread the porthcawl tramway link is Pie in the sky IMO! For a start most of the trackbed has disappeared. The line "finally" closed in 1964 after it had been previously recommended that services be retained for summer only operation (was this unique in UK?). In reality the local authority couldn't wait for the line to be closed so that a troublesome level crossing could be dispensd with a land freed up for a new road to solve the problems of traffic congestion in summer which duly materialised. Other land outside the town has also been lost.

Had it survived the rail link to Pyle and Bridgend and on to Cardiff would, I am sure, be well used today being very competitive with the bus service which takes 90 minutes as well as being useful for bringing in the vast number of summer visitors to the town because even with the new road built on the trackbed it is still very congested in summer.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Hi new here - I read in the last SEWTA report that the Beddau train will run through to Ebbw Vale evry hour. If a half hour service is to happen the passing loops in Miskin will have to be upgraded to passenger services.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Hi new here - I read in the last SEWTA report that the Beddau train will run through to Ebbw Vale evry hour. If a half hour service is to happen the passing loops in Miskin will have to be upgraded to passenger services.

Why would they? Pathed correctly, Down services would cross the up line where it branches off at Pontyclun, and Up services would merely converge on to the up line itself at Pontyclun. I see no reason for the passing loops at Miskin to be ugraded. They really don't bare any relevance, as, in any case, they're too far east for it to make any difference. there is no need for those loops, as passenger services have to run "fast" east of Pontyclun anyway, all trains can make the linespped, and the linespeed isnt differencial for any type of passenger train. Hence the loops are freight only, as they are restricted to 60 I belive (I may be wrong) and they are hardly used as it is.

Plus - as has been said here, the most effective way would be a Beddau shuttle to connect with Cardiff bound services. The Ebbw services are (touch wood) to be extended to Maesteg, to give a half-hourly service on the who length of the Maesteg line, hence the upgrade of the Tondu loop.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Why would they? Pathed correctly, Down services would cross the up line where it branches off at Pontyclun, and Up services would merely converge on to the up line itself at Pontyclun. I see no reason for the passing loops at Miskin to be ugraded. They really don't bare any relevance, as, in any case, they're too far east for it to make any difference. there is no need for those loops, as passenger services have to run "fast" east of Pontyclun anyway, all trains can make the linespped, and the linespeed isnt differencial for any type of passenger train. Hence the loops are freight only, as they are restricted to 60 I belive (I may be wrong) and they are hardly used as it is.

Plus - as has been said here, the most effective way would be a Beddau shuttle to connect with Cardiff bound services. The Ebbw services are (touch wood) to be extended to Maesteg, to give a half-hourly service on the who length of the Maesteg line, hence the upgrade of the Tondu loop.

The report said that the train from Ebbw Vale would not have enough time to go to Maesteg and back in time to leave Cardiff as the EV train waits over an hour in Cardiff before returning to EV. The round trip to Beddau is only 50 minutes so the EV train could easily go to Beddau and back to Cardiff in plenty of time. A shuttle would be a good idea but perhaps it wouldnt attract so many passengers as they would have to change trains, also there may be overcrowding on the trains from Maesteg. A better way would be via Creigiau but that would be far more expensive as parts of the track bed have either been built on or the bridges removed over the years.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

The report said that the train from Ebbw Vale would not have enough time to go to Maesteg and back in time to leave Cardiff as the EV train waits over an hour in Cardiff before returning to EV.

Yes but it wouldn't necessarily mean a simple out and back working. Take the Vale of Glamorgan, for example, where trains from Bridgend usually go to Aberdare but trains to Bridgend usually originate from Merthyr.

 

[Tumbleweed]

The report said that the train from Ebbw Vale would not have enough time to go to Maesteg and back in time to leave Cardiff as the EV train waits over an hour in Cardiff before returning to EV. The round trip to Beddau is only 50 minutes so the EV train could easily go to Beddau and back to Cardiff in plenty of time. A shuttle would be a good idea but perhaps it wouldnt attract so many passengers as they would have to change trains, also there may be overcrowding on the trains from Maesteg. A better way would be via Creigiau but that would be far more expensive as parts of the track bed have either been built on or the bridges removed over the years.

As for the Miskin loops, that was mentioned in the report assuming a new station in St Fagans would be built as a train from West Wales would need to overtake.
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Yes but it wouldn't necessarily mean a simple out and back working. Take the Vale of Glamorgan, for example, where trains from Bridgend usually go to Aberdare but trains to Bridgend usually originate from Merthyr.

Of course, but isn't the Vale of Glam line double track - a luxury not the Maesteg line or any proposed line to Beddau?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

As for the Miskin loops, that was mentioned in the report assuming a new station in St Fagans would be built as a train from West Wales would need to overtake.
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Of course, but isn't the Vale of Glam line double track - a luxury not the Maesteg line or any proposed line to Beddau?

The superior acceleration of EMUs might not need a train to be looped. The Inter City sector insisted on the loop at Tremains being upgraded to passenger standard in order that late running Maesteg trains could be looped in case of late running. Such expense has proved to be unnecessary and has only been used on a handful of occasions to assist GW trains regain time, not the other way about.

Single or double, it doesn't really matter because the the route between Cardiff and Bridgend is, of course, double and there is also a dynamic loop on the Ebbw Vale line. What does matter is how the sets are diagrammed. You may as well say that the Holyhead - Maesteg shouldn't run because it doesn't go back to Holyhead.

You'd be surprised at just how complicated some of the diagrams were, even in steam days, in the Valleys.

 

[Tumbleweed]

The superior acceleration of EMUs might not need a train to be looped. The Inter City sector insisted on the loop at Tremains being upgraded to passenger standard in order that late running Maesteg trains could be looped in case of late running. Such expense has proved to be unnecessary and has only been used on a handful of occasions to assist GW trains regain time, not the other way about.

Single or double, it doesn't really matter because the the route between Cardiff and Bridgend is, of course, double and there is also a dynamic loop on the Ebbw Vale line. What does matter is how the sets are diagrammed. You may as well say that the Holyhead - Maesteg shouldn't run because it doesn't go back to Holyhead.

You'd be surprised at just how complicated some of the diagrams were, even in steam days, in the Valleys.

Yes, I can imagine! Be interesting to see how it all pans out.

 

[krus_aragon]

The report said that the train from Ebbw Vale would not have enough time to go to Maesteg and back in time to leave Cardiff as the EV train waits over an hour in Cardiff before returning to EV.

Ebbw Vale seems to be very awkwardly timed for clockface services! The existing service waits in Cardiff for an hour because there isn't the time for the train to get down from Ebbw to Cardiff in time to make the return working(*). You say the extension to Maesteg doesn't quite fit in to that extra hour, and similarly I've read (somewhere) a report on the Ebbw-Newport service detailing how a unit couldn't sit in a platform in Newport for the XX minutes until the return journey, and all the turnback locations considered (Cwmbrân/Abergavenny and two particular sidings) couldn't be done in the time available. I would say that linespeed improvements on the Ebbw line would solve all these ills, but then the eventual extension to Ebbw Town would put us back to square one.

* Not enough time for a robust timetable, at least. In practice, incoming services are sometimes turned round to form the outgoing service, with passengers rushing back down the underpass to meet the incoming train on Platform 3/4.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Ebbw Vale seems to be very awkwardly timed for clockface services! The existing service waits in Cardiff for an hour because there isn't the time for the train to get down from Ebbw to Cardiff in time to make the return working(*). You say the extension to Maesteg doesn't quite fit in to that extra hour, and similarly I've read (somewhere) a report on the Ebbw-Newport service detailing how a unit couldn't sit in a platform in Newport for the XX minutes until the return journey, and all the turnback locations considered (Cwmbrân/Abergavenny and two particular sidings) couldn't be done in the time available. I would say that linespeed improvements on the Ebbw line would solve all these ills, but then the eventual extension to Ebbw Town would put us back to square one.

* Not enough time for a robust timetable, at least. In practice, incoming services are sometimes turned round to form the outgoing service, with passengers rushing back down the underpass to meet the incoming train on Platform 3/4.

At the moment Ebbw Vale services have a nine minute layover at Ebbw Vale Parkway. The trains normally arrive in Cardiff five or six minutes before the advertised public time. Some tweaking of the track geometry would certainly improve train speeds. It might be possible to operate an out and back service with the same set but not without worry.

If the service did run through to Maesteg, I can't see that much difficulty. The journey times to and from Cardiff are roughly the same and the up and down services would probably cross each other somewhere around Pencoed. Of course, both timetables might have to be recast slightly but I can't see any real problem in making it work. It really depends on what other demands are made on the route between Cardiff and Bridgend. But with the coming of the wires I suspect that a lot of new thinking might be in order.

 

[Bevan Price]

It was my understanding (through use of a well known online mapping service) that Tesco's foundations had been built on the trackbed, and the line can no longer pass through the estate between Peacocks and Cross-Inn...I take it that it can?

Property built on a line did not stop the Croydon Tramway..... Given a government willpower & money, even a Tesco can be shifted...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Property built on a line did not stop the Croydon Tramway..... Given a government willpower & money, even a Tesco can be shifted...

I always thought that "shifting an established Tesco store" would have been a good modern equivalent task to be set as one of the Seven Labours of Hercules..