Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[A0]

East coast improved after the removal of national express.

Yes east coast is a more simple franchise. But considering how bad things are if it goes to the operator of last resort it can’t get worse. At least we will have some accountability which we don’t have now.

No it didn't, there was pretty much no change apart from painting the trains a horrible battleship grey.

Please explain how you think East Coast had accountability which NXEC didn't - because that's often peddled as a claim, yet those of us old enough to remember a fully nationalised rail network know there was no accountability and if you were a passenger the attitude was 'if you don't like the service you can lump it'.

 

[philjo]

Good news... The 0654 Cambridge to Brighton actually ran.
Bad news ... Got to Finsbury Park and there was no driver to take the train forward. I got onto Moorgate train and then Victoria Line at Highbury. I gather the train was diverted in to Kings Cross after a 10 minute delay at Finsbury Park.
0612 from Baldock and 0638 from Royston cancelled. and some other stoppers cancelled to 0738 form Royston making extra stops.

 

[ComUtoR]

Just a challenge for the GTR apologists that think that changing the management won’t achieve anything. Did Connex improve after Horton and Co were kicked out and it went to the operator of last resort? Don’t know myself as I didn’t use them.

Nothing changes. It's a pointless exercise from my perspective. Management remains, staff remain and very little of the day to day changes. The way the TOC gets run stays the same and employment practices stay the same. What changes is the senior managers and directors.

Charles Horton kicked out..... LOL he still ended up running Southeastern.

 

[Aictos]

Nothing changes. It's a pointless exercise from my perspective. Management remains, staff remain and very little of the day to day changes. The way the TOC gets run stays the same and employment practices stay the same. What changes is the senior managers and directors.

Charles Horton kicked out..... LOL he still ended up running Southeastern.

True but you are wrong in one aspect though, although it seems that nothing will change with a different company in charge, they will do their best to push though their way of thinking as their way is the RIGHT way and everything done previously was wrong or am I too cynical?

 

[ComUtoR]

Everyone comes in with new ideals and new company values etc but the same core running of the TOCs remains the same. The same Managers that run the TOC previously still remain in their positions. Director level seems to have very little input to the day to day running. Take the issue with Driver training etc. This hasn't changed in years. GTR previously messed up and lost a Director the last time they took new routes. IF a new TOC came in and changed the way Drivers are trained, increased the number of Instructors, changed outdated training practices etc then maybe you would see change. However; that takes a lot of investment with months and potentially years of change. Sadly, the person in charge of HR and the Training schools etc is still the same person with the same attitudes.

If I'm honest, I believe the railway is rotten to the core and that's what needs to change. With short franchises there is little incentive for any new TOC to change the day to day running. I can understand why long franchises look to be the future.

We still have a few BR Drivers left and they still having the same complaints they had years ago and are still working in the same way. Even I haven't seen much in terms of change. Route learning is still the same I did when I first started 10+ yrs ago. There has been some small changes to Trainee paperwork and how they are assessed but its still the same ye olde 225hrs concept and training approach. Even when discussing the differences between different TOCs it is still generically the same. That is because everyone is still working to the same standards. Ergo a new TOC just brings in the same working practice with some nuance but essentially the same at the core. The DLP program that was brought in essentially failed and at my TOC a new Training school failed essentially due to the cost. In a thread many moons back it was discussed about 'SP' 'Cover' and 'AR' turns. Essentially a rose by any other name.

When Connex went to IKF There was little change because the intent was to change to a new TOC. IKF came in and drove forward a recruitment drive and effectively chucked money around. My T&Cs didn't magically change overnight. My roster didn't change and my job never changed. Even now we are running to the same core principles of rostering. ISK came in and stabilized everything.

Keeping the same staff, in the same positions is also part of the problem. When you TUPE over everyone you also TUPE over attitudes. The change at the top needs to filter down. Kicking out GTR isn't magically going to change anything. The problems will still exist and the people who cause them will still exist.

 

[Teddyward]

Just arrived at Finsbury Park. Been cancelled running to Moorgate and now going non stop to kings x as there was no relief driver at Finsbury Park. Not too bothered, much of a muchness and eating up a bit of work time!

 

[MCSHF007]

Everyone comes in with new ideals and new company values etc but the same core running of the TOCs remains the same. The same Managers that run the TOC previously still remain in their positions. Director level seems to have very little input to the day to day running. Take the issue with Driver training etc. This hasn't changed in years. GTR previously messed up and lost a Director the last time they took new routes. IF a new TOC came in and changed the way Drivers are trained, increased the number of Instructors, changed outdated training practices etc then maybe you would see change. However; that takes a lot of investment with months and potentially years of change. Sadly, the person in charge of HR and the Training schools etc is still the same person with the same attitudes.

If I'm honest, I believe the railway is rotten to the core and that's what needs to change. With short franchises there is little incentive for any new TOC to change the day to day running. I can understand why long franchises look to be the future.

We still have a few BR Drivers left and they still having the same complaints they had years ago and are still working in the same way. Even I haven't seen much in terms of change. Route learning is still the same I did when I first started 10+ yrs ago. There has been some small changes to Trainee paperwork and how they are assessed but its still the same ye olde 225hrs concept and training approach. Even when discussing the differences between different TOCs it is still generically the same. That is because everyone is still working to the same standards. Ergo a new TOC just brings in the same working practice with some nuance but essentially the same at the core. The DLP program that was brought in essentially failed and at my TOC a new Training school failed essentially due to the cost. In a thread many moons back it was discussed about 'SP' 'Cover' and 'AR' turns. Essentially a rose by any other name.

When Connex went to IKF There was little change because the intent was to change to a new TOC. IKF came in and drove forward a recruitment drive and effectively chucked money around. My T&Cs didn't magically change overnight. My roster didn't change and my job never changed. Even now we are running to the same core principles of rostering. ISK came in and stabilized everything.

Keeping the same staff, in the same positions is also part of the problem. When you TUPE over everyone you also TUPE over attitudes. The change at the top needs to filter down. Kicking out GTR isn't magically going to change anything. The problems will still exist and the people who cause them will still exist.

Excellent post.

 

[FOH]

I don’t get this relief driver business at Finsbury Park. When I met the GTR planners they said there would be no Thameslink stopping at New Cross Gate as stopping so close to London reduces line capacity but also increases operational risk. Why would the same people then plan to make driver changes at what is in effect a mirror station north of the Thames?

 

[Aictos]

The only stations where crew changeovers ought to take place is East Croydon and Finsbury Park so in essence GN drivers would learn the route to East Croydon via both Elephant and Castle as well as London Bridge and SN drivers would learn the route to Finsbury Park in the case of the GN drivers it allows for diversion knowledge if the booked route is unavailable because changing crew at London Bridge is a risk especially if the route is not available so changing at East Croydon migates it.

As to stopping at Finsbury Park, I think it's still done as it's the last station where you have the option of diverting to Kings Cross if need be for example no SN/TL driver to take the service onto Horsham/Brighton or a 313 has failed the tripcock detector so can't run to Moorgate.

The reason I think they closed Blackfriars depot and did away with the crew changeover there was simple because the powers to be thought it was too great a operational risk.

Now I don't know exactly what GN routes the SN/TL guys are learning but I would have thought that as well as learning the route to Peterborough via Welwyn Garden City they would also be learning the route via Hertford as well hopefully.

 

[Taunton]

Crew changes are a longstanding railway practice, and I can never recall, over many decades, being held at a place and then cancelled because no onward driver is available (and locomotives too, in the days of loco changes). Even on the Underground it happens at places like Earls Court without difficulty. Whatever are the unique issues that cause this constant problem at Finsbury Park?

 

[hwl]

Crew changes are a longstanding railway practice, and I can never recall, over many decades, being held at a place and then cancelled because no onward driver is available (and locomotives too, in the days of loco changes). Even on the Underground it happens at places like Earls Court without difficulty. Whatever are the unique issues that cause this constant problem at Finsbury Park?

So few trained drivers to take trains from Finsbury Park to St Pancras and further south.

Where crew changes work well there are plenty of trained drivers...

 

[HH]

Crew changes are a longstanding railway practice, and I can never recall, over many decades, being held at a place and then cancelled because no onward driver is available (and locomotives too, in the days of loco changes). Even on the Underground it happens at places like Earls Court without difficulty. Whatever are the unique issues that cause this constant problem at Finsbury Park?

Oddly enough I've seen plenty of problems at Edgware Road, also used for Underground changeovers.

 

[Downthelane]

What was shocking this morning at HAT was that staff (all four of them) had no idea the 7.32 from WGC was not going to run. Clearly RTT was saying that but they had no means to check.

They rang WGC and then it was confirmed, but RTT had this info but staff didn't know what RTT was or how to access that info without making a call to staff at WGC.

What an utter farce, passengers having to tell station staff how to do their job.

The info board flipped to Delayed at around 7.37 and this delay increased slowly before any formal announcement was made to finally admit cancellation.

 

[ComUtoR]

What was shocking this morning at HAT

HAT ?

They rang WGC and then it was confirmed, but RTT had this info but staff didn't know what RTT was or how to access that info without making a call to staff at WGC.

RTT (realtimetrains) is not an official source so there is no reason why staff would be aware of its existence. RTT is not reliable either. It was showing 3 of my services as cancelled the other day. Two of them turned up, as booked and on time. For one service, RTT was showing it as cancelled and National Rail was showing it as on time :/

 

[jon0844]

Indeed, RTT is often very inaccurate. Live updates put into the live database probably won't show, so it won't help find out if a train is running or not. That comes down to making a call to control or another station that may know more.

The 700s that start from WGC usually come from KGX and return (the first service or two of the day may come from the yard) and if there's no inbound then it's quite likely the KGX run will be cancelled, but sometimes there are spare 700s in the yard so it's a case of checking that there's a driver and the train is prepped in time to run. If late, it will either run fast to KGX or be cancelled.. and that's a decision being made based on many factors, so staff at the time will NOT know and can only make educated guesses. Which of course the general public can do too.

The best advice is to tell people to board a train that's running and on the platform than wait, if there's any sign of a delay. Better to be on a slow train and cursing that the fast did run, than on the platform letting trains go and then find the fast train isn't going to run.

Last week, everything was looking good for the 0732 until there was a door fault and the service was heavily delayed but there was a desire to run it (fast) but continued problems then resulted in a cancellation and it forming a service to Cambridge instead.

These problems existed before May 20 I might add. Anything starting from WGC can be a problem when the train isn't actually on the platform.

 

[Kanrakuq]

Since I moaned yesterday seems like I should at least say that today the service at Arlesey has been very stable. I think two early morning cancellations going north (both from Kings Cross, not the core) but apart from that the morning rush hour worked fine with all trains going through the core as intended. As it stands everything is running on time, all trains are going between Peterborough and Horsham and it seems fairly predictable (apart from every, say, third or fourth train where there is an hour gap because something got removed from the timetable, but at least it's been written into the schedules for all to see).

I am interested in the evening rush hour more because I don't think there has ever been a single even half-successful rush hour involving Arlesey and the core (by the end of last week they had just resorted to almost train overkill, with five trains usually arriving from Kings Cross between 6 and 7pm: nice, but, also, we don't actually need that many) so if that goes okay and there's a stable half-hourly return service, then hopefully it'll be a sign that a corner has finally been turned and they can start to gradually add in the trains that have been removed for whatever reasons.

It is a relief to possibly have a functional train station again.

 

[sefton]

Since I moaned yesterday seems like I should at least say that today the service at Arlesey has been very stable. I think two early morning cancellations going north (both from Kings Cross, not the core) but apart from that the morning rush hour worked fine with all trains going through the core as intended. As it stands everything is running on time, all trains are going between Peterborough and Horsham and it seems fairly predictable (apart from every, say, third or fourth train where there is an hour gap because something got removed from the timetable, but at least it's been written into the schedules for all to see).

I would agree.

All very positive with the trains from Peterborough this morning, but fortunately still one missing from the planned May timetable so allowing Delay Repay if you intended to catch it but couldn't (and can't for the months ahead).

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridge appears to have had a considerable improvement today; at the time of typing (pre-evening peak, so touching wood etc.), all booked Thameslink departures towards London, bar the cancelled 0727 departure, have run: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/07/16/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[TheDavibob]

There seems to be a little disruption rumbling in from the Brighton Mainline - it'll be interesting to see how this effects the evening peak. Hopefully it's fine.

I'm rather optimistic that there will be a useable train service again (and the promised through trains to Brighton actually seem to exist, with reasonable regularity, for the first time).

 

[OwenB]

GN outers still at on time = 59%. Can this mainly be put down to issues with the first proper morning that will be ironed out for tomorrow?

 

[transmanche]

Crew changes are a longstanding railway practice, and I can never recall, over many decades, being held at a place and then cancelled because no onward driver is available (and locomotives too, in the days of loco changes).

I can recall when Great Northern moved over to DOO operation, but guards were still required on the Northern City line. Large numbers of trains were diverted at Finsbury Park to Kings Cross instead of Moorgate, due to the lack of an available guard. Made a right mess of the service for ages.

This is essentially exactly the same problem almost twenty years later. A lack of trained staff in the right place at the right time.

 

[Downthelane]

So 'progress' is not having a 17.51 KGX to CBG semi fast now?

And the 17.21 isn't running.

Great work Grant...

Awaiting the justification from the usual suspects.

 

[Failed Unit]

Everyone comes in with new ideals and new company values etc but the same core running of the TOCs remains the same. The same Managers that run the TOC previously still remain in their positions. Director level seems to have very little input to the day to day running. Take the issue with Driver training etc. This hasn't changed in years. GTR previously messed up and lost a Director the last time they took new routes. IF a new TOC came in and changed the way Drivers are trained, increased the number of Instructors, changed outdated training practices etc then maybe you would see change. However; that takes a lot of investment with months and potentially years of change. Sadly, the person in charge of HR and the Training schools etc is still the same person with the same attitudes.

If I'm honest, I believe the railway is rotten to the core and that's what needs to change. With short franchises there is little incentive for any new TOC to change the day to day running. I can understand why long franchises look to be the future.

We still have a few BR Drivers left and they still having the same complaints they had years ago and are still working in the same way. Even I haven't seen much in terms of change. Route learning is still the same I did when I first started 10+ yrs ago. There has been some small changes to Trainee paperwork and how they are assessed but its still the same ye olde 225hrs concept and training approach. Even when discussing the differences between different TOCs it is still generically the same. That is because everyone is still working to the same standards. Ergo a new TOC just brings in the same working practice with some nuance but essentially the same at the core. The DLP program that was brought in essentially failed and at my TOC a new Training school failed essentially due to the cost. In a thread many moons back it was discussed about 'SP' 'Cover' and 'AR' turns. Essentially a rose by any other name.

When Connex went to IKF There was little change because the intent was to change to a new TOC. IKF came in and drove forward a recruitment drive and effectively chucked money around. My T&Cs didn't magically change overnight. My roster didn't change and my job never changed. Even now we are running to the same core principles of rostering. ISK came in and stabilized everything.

Keeping the same staff, in the same positions is also part of the problem. When you TUPE over everyone you also TUPE over attitudes. The change at the top needs to filter down. Kicking out GTR isn't magically going to change anything. The problems will still exist and the people who cause them will still exist.

I don’t dispute any of what you have posted. But surely there comes a point the we must try something new. Anything new. GTR have gone from one disaster to another.

But when senior management go on national TV and lie - that is a new low. OK he is gone now and may be the bad apple. Maybe the replacement will improve things.

Looking at things another way. The contract is rotten. That is the problem. GTR have no incentive to fix things as they are not taking and financial risk. When the revenue drops because the weekend service is unusable, GTR get paid the same as DFT took the revenue risk. If this runs successfully GTR have no incentive to increase passenger numbers.

That is what is hurting passengers. We haven’t even had an apology from GTR management. Saying “we are sorry but this is all network rails fault” is like sending your child round to your neighbours because they have kicked a football through the window. The child isn’t sorry and is only apologising because they are told to.

This couldn’t give a damn about the passenger within GTR is why I want them out. But would also love to see some accountability for the area that wrote such a weak contract that lets the poor performance happen unpunished.

 

[Failed Unit]

GN outers still at on time = 59%. Can this mainly be put down to issues with the first proper morning that will be ironed out for tomorrow?

The mornings always tended to be worse. Evening looks as bad as ever for Welwyn / Hatfield. We you say 59% on time is a success. It shows how bad things have become.

 

[OwenB]

The mornings always tended to be worse. Evening looks as bad as ever for Welwyn / Hatfield. We you say 59% on time is a success. It shows how bad things have become.

Sorry, I think 59% is shocking. I meant how much can be put down to it being the first morning. Find out tomorrow, I guess.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sorry, I think 59% is shocking. I meant how much can be put down to it being the first morning. Find out tomorrow, I guess.

Yeah. We certainly sound like we have had the rough end of the stick today. That is the other thing I don’t understand. The apologists are saying it is the first day. Surely the railway isn’t that bad that we can no longer expect things to work on day 1? Guess not.

 

[OwenB]

Yeah. We certainly sound like we have had the rough end of the stick today. That is the other thing I don’t understand. The apologists are saying it is the first day. Surely the railway isn’t that bad that we can no longer expect things to work on day 1? Guess not.

Yep. No choice but to suck it up and hope it runs well tomorrow.

On another note, removing the 17.51 KGX-CBG makes my 18.06 busy. Presume that's that until Christmas. Along with the appalling weekend service.

Fun times.

 

[Aictos]

Looking at things another way. The contract is rotten. That is the problem. GTR have no incentive to fix things as they are not taking and financial risk. When the revenue drops because the weekend service is unusable, GTR get paid the same as DFT took the revenue risk. If this runs successfully GTR have no incentive to increase passenger numbers.

That's just it, regardless of what GTR actually run they get paid the same so they can run 1tph or 15tph it's the same.

A proper contract would ensure there was incentive for GTR to fix things however unlikely, for every service that doesn't run or gets cancelled then GTR should have been fined by the DfT so it's in GTR best interests to ensure they run a service as advertised.

I don't want to insult our primate relations but a monkey could have set up a better contract then what we've got!

 

[morgainelive]

an excellent report on Look East Cambridge tonight a good 10 minutes dedicated to the chaos and the new timetables lots of views well worth a watch

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

just a thought... some people have swallowed the line "there may be problems on the first day".... how? the temporary timetable needs less trains and drivers than originally planned... so they can't really use the excuse of "things in the wrong place" can they? they've got more resources than they need in bucketloads... so how can a "train in the wrong place" cause any problems... when there's half a dozen sitting there doing nothing.