Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

Getting stock into position isn't an excuse. Sure, you can ask why it hadn't been done sooner but that was half of the problem. The problems with running a service you almost made up as you went along had drivers AND stock in the wrong places.

The solution was to split up 387s and 365s, which meant people getting 4 car trains roll up that nobody could board.

 

[gingerheid]

They used the getting stock into position excuse first time around. It was a c*ap excuse then and it still is now

 

[MML]

an excellent report on Look East Cambridge tonight a good 10 minutes dedicated to the chaos and the new timetables lots of views well worth a watch

Except they interviewed a certain Robert Nisbet from the Rail Delivery Group who blamed the 'issues' on delayed infrastructure and late acceptance of the timetable.
A rail expert you might think. But no, he is a former BBC and Sky journalist who has now accepted the rather highly paid job of a PR merchant and spin doctor to sell the media half truthes from his fat cat bosses.
My pet hamster knows more about the rail industry than this propaganda merchant.
Hardly a word about the lack of enough trained drivers or driving instructors, nor the poor rostering of drivers with train diagrams. In spite of this project being planned for introduction years ago.
The PR parasites are half the reason the industry is in such a mess.
He explained Thameslink was responsible for trains in Sheffield having to use a different platform (bizarre comment that he probably picked up on when being briefed for the interview), but he still didn't explain why almost 2 months later GTR are still unable to deliver the original timetable.

 

[Failed Unit]

Getting stock into position isn't an excuse. Sure, you can ask why it hadn't been done sooner but that was half of the problem. The problems with running a service you almost made up as you went along had drivers AND stock in the wrong places.

The solution was to split up 387s and 365s, which meant people getting 4 car trains roll up that nobody could board.

But that was something within GTRs control. Something they should have planned. Perhaps if they had attempted to run the Sunday service they might have being prepared for Monday. Let’s face it the Sunday service was hardly demanding.

Successful companies don’t make excuses for things in their control. They don’t always look for someone else to blame.

Today’s performance is hardly anything to be proud of on Great Northern. Still the lowest of all the GTR routes. Still skip stopping. If only they had trained more drivers on the 700s or kept the 365s.

 

[class387]

Does anyone know what happened on the Hertford Loop today? Seen 313s running fast on the ECML from Stevenage.

 

[Failed Unit]

Except they interviewed a certain Robert Nisbet from the Rail Delivery Group who blamed the 'issues' on delayed infrastructure and late acceptance of the timetable.
A rail expert you might think. But no, he is a former BBC and Sky journalist who has now accepted the rather highly paid job of a PR merchant and spin doctor to sell the media half truthes from his fat cat bosses.
My pet hamster knows more about the rail industry than this propaganda merchant.
Hardly a word about the lack of enough trained drivers or driving instructors, nor the poor rostering of drivers with train diagrams. In spite of this project being planned for introduction years ago.
The PR parasites are half the reason the industry is in such a mess.
He explained Thameslink was responsible for trains in Sheffield having to use a different platform (bizarre comment that he probably picked up on when being briefed for the interview), but he still didn't explain why almost 2 months later GTR are still unable to deliver the original timetable.

I must admit. I do find it very frustrating that these people don’t press these PR gurus more.

Let’s look at great northern. 3 tph through the core. Ok so why is the London - Cambridge route performing so badly. No new infrastructure here.

Why is the significantly reduced weekend virtually non existent? Again no new infrastructure here.

Why after 12 weeks (the industry standard) can you still not operate the reduced version. This proves even if network rail had approved it on time you still couldn’t deliver it.

They need someone from the railway press to interview them. Soon have the pr guru in knots.

 

[philjo]

Does anyone know what happened on the Hertford Loop today? Seen 313s running fast on the ECML from Stevenage.

There are urgent track repairs blocking the down line between Watton at Stone and Stevenage.
Journeycheck:

The 0521 London Kings Cross to Stevenage train developed a mechanical fault which we were unable to reset, fleet engineers liaised with the driver and the train was able to move forward. The next service through the area reported a similar issue, therefore Network Rail maintenance are carrying out work to the affected area to resolve the matter as soon as possible.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

It's due to high ballast causing a tripcock to be activated I believe

 

[notverydeep]

Whisper it - all the trains in the new interim timetable from the start of traffic at Welwyn Garden City seem to have run thus far and only one has been late to any degree (at least at WGC), that being 2C09, the 0627 Cambridge - King's Cross which was 16 late. Even better for at least Bramling and I, 2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross was 2x365 instead of the booked 700! Obviously, without Selective Door Operation this was not better if you wanted to board or alight at any of the villages...

I noticed again yesterday that no attempt is being made to get any late train to King's Cross to catch up time, even if the fast line is clear. 2C15, the 0744 Cambridge North - KGX left WGC 14 late and it arrived Potters Bar, just after the passage of 1B81 0730 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross with nothing behind on the fast line until 1A09 0715 Leeds to London Kings Cross running some eight minutes behind. More than enough of a gap to fit in on the up fast to Finsbury Park platform 2, had it done so, given its planned 12 minutes from arriving at Finsbury Park to King's Cross, an arrival at King's Cross only about six minutes late would have been possible. Instead it was further held up by Moorgate services and ended up triggering Delay Repay at around 17 minutes late. Presumably one person at Three Bridges is signaling everything from something like Doncaster to King's Cross and will often not spot opportunities to recover...

 

[Fred26]

Whisper it - all the trains in the new interim timetable from the start of traffic at Welwyn Garden City seem to have run thus far and only one has been late to any degree (at least at WGC), that being 2C09, the 0627 Cambridge - King's Cross which was 16 late. Even better for at least Bramling and I, 2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross was 2x365 instead of the booked 700! Obviously, without Selective Door Operation this was not better if you wanted to board or alight at any of the villages...

I noticed again yesterday that no attempt is being made to get any late train to King's Cross to catch up time, even if the fast line is clear. 2C15, the 0744 Cambridge North - KGX left WGC 14 late and it arrived Potters Bar, just after the passage of 1B81 0730 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross with nothing behind on the fast line until 1A09 0715 Leeds to London Kings Cross running some eight minutes behind. More than enough of a gap to fit in on the up fast to Finsbury Park platform 2, had it done so, given its planned 12 minutes from arriving at Finsbury Park to King's Cross, an arrival at King's Cross only about six minutes late would have been possible. Instead it was further held up by Moorgate services and ended up triggering Delay Repay at around 17 minutes late. Presumably one person at Three Bridges is signaling everything from something like Doncaster to King's Cross and will often not spot opportunities to recover...

Signalling sections are much smaller than that. It's also still controlled at Kings Cross.

 

[urpert]

Quite surprised to see pretty much all the off-peak Orpington - Kentish Town trains have been unceremoniously dumped from the ‘interim’ timetable (taking the Catford Loop back to 2tph, I knew it was too good to be true!)

 

[bramling]

Yep. No choice but to suck it up and hope it runs well tomorrow.

On another note, removing the 17.51 KGX-CBG makes my 18.06 busy. Presume that's that until Christmas. Along with the appalling weekend service.

Fun times.

Can’t help but notice some late running affecting northbound Peterborough and Cambridge services this eveninv

Whisper it - all the trains in the new interim timetable from the start of traffic at Welwyn Garden City seem to have run thus far and only one has been late to any degree (at least at WGC), that being 2C09, the 0627 Cambridge - King's Cross which was 16 late. Even better for at least Bramling and I, 2C13, the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross was 2x365 instead of the booked 700! Obviously, without Selective Door Operation this was not better if you wanted to board or alight at any of the villages...

I noticed again yesterday that no attempt is being made to get any late train to King's Cross to catch up time, even if the fast line is clear. 2C15, the 0744 Cambridge North - KGX left WGC 14 late and it arrived Potters Bar, just after the passage of 1B81 0730 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross with nothing behind on the fast line until 1A09 0715 Leeds to London Kings Cross running some eight minutes behind. More than enough of a gap to fit in on the up fast to Finsbury Park platform 2, had it done so, given its planned 12 minutes from arriving at Finsbury Park to King's Cross, an arrival at King's Cross only about six minutes late would have been possible. Instead it was further held up by Moorgate services and ended up triggering Delay Repay at around 17 minutes late. Presumably one person at Three Bridges is signaling everything from something like Doncaster to King's Cross and will often not spot opportunities to recover...

It was one prediction that the stopping trains would often be left to run late - there’s enough turnaround time to ride out most delays, and it’s very easy for the signallers to leave all the intermediate sites on through running. This may be workable now, however if these services ever start running from and to the core then things will be rather worse.

It’s a relief to see things are more stable - however never forget that we are only still at the point of running 3 of the 8 planned core services, with many of those themselves missing. And, true to form, last night saw some late running off the southern region right in the middle of the evening peak affecting Peterborough and Cambridge journeys. So whilst they seem to have elevated themselves up from a meltdown which should never have even come close to happening, things are still far from perfect.

Bets on when the next Sussex infrastructure failure happens!

 

[Aictos]

Signalling sections are much smaller than that. It's also still controlled at Kings Cross.

For now until control moves to York ROC by then the Canal Tunnels will be the handover point between Three Bridges ROC and York ROC one would have thought so.

 

[ESONEULB]

To all posters on this thread.

Keep up the great posts as this is fascinating reading and tells me more about what's going on than I could ever search for on the internet.

I'm in the talent pool for Great Northern Trainie Train Driver.. So getting things right and back to normal, so I and others can move on with thier lives is really important.

Understanding what is happening is really valuable to me..

Congratulations to all and keep up the good work

 

[notverydeep]

Signalling sections are much smaller than that. It's also still controlled at Kings Cross.

Yes, I thought it would be at least a little bit smaller, the 'Doncaster to King's Cross' suggestion was exaggeration for effect, but if I understand correctly somewhat remote control of a larger area is already in place at Three Bridges and remote signaling of a wider area is the medium term objective? Presumably for now, then the relevant signalers have the opportunity and local knowledge to facilitate recovery where possible. Do you know how the 'desks' at King's Cross are divided up in terms of the geographical areas they cover?

I would assume that improvement of how trains are managed in these sorts of circumstances forms part of the business case for Traffic Management systems alongside future signaling. All three trains that I observed in my earlier post were around 5 to 7 minutes late and thus out of their nominal paths, so presumably spotting this would be beyond current Automatic Route Setting (ARS)...

 

[jon0844]

Looking at trains.im the PPM today for GTR as a whole is 81% (15% late and 4% very late or cancelled). As at 1250.

GN outers 77/23/0
GN inners 85/8/7

 

[bramling]

Yes, I thought it would be at least a little bit smaller, the 'Doncaster to King's Cross' suggestion was exaggeration for effect, but if I understand correctly somewhat remote control of a larger area is already in place at Three Bridges and remote signaling of a wider area is the medium term objective? Presumably for now, then the relevant signalers have the opportunity and local knowledge to facilitate recovery where possible. Do you know how the 'desks' at King's Cross are divided up in terms of the geographical areas they cover?

I would assume that improvement of how trains are managed in these sorts of circumstances forms part of the business case for Traffic Management systems alongside future signaling. All three trains that I observed in my earlier post were around 5 to 7 minutes late and thus out of their nominal paths, so presumably spotting this would be beyond current Automatic Route Setting (ARS)...

The SimSig simulation for Kings Cross provides a fairly accurate simulation of reality, barring that the layout is very slightly out of date and the actual signaller interface arrangement is different. You can even download the May 18 timetable and put in a few ex-core delays to see what the effect is! You’ll be doing the work of five signallers, but it is just about manageable.

 

[paul332]

Anyone know why two successive St Albans - Sutton loop stoppers were terminated at Kentish Town at 8.21 and 8.36? The BedPan stoppers are still getting a very raw deal in all this. 35-min gap in the northbound p.m. peak (up from 30 in the previous post-20 May timetable), against a regular 15-minute service pre-May 20. Compounds the disgrace. GTR spits in our face.

 

[Failed Unit]

Looking at trains.im the PPM today for GTR as a whole is 81% (15% late and 4% very late or cancelled). As at 1250.

GN outers 77/23/0
GN inners 85/8/7

I have seen that, but also know the GN outers have had at least 2 trains skip stops. So why they haven’t got cancellations on the outers is odd. See post above. The 0727 couldn’t stop until Royston. One outer ran non-stop to Cambridge from KX because of a late start.

 

[urpert]

Quite surprised to see pretty much all the off-peak Orpington - Kentish Town trains have been unceremoniously dumped from the ‘interim’ timetable (taking the Catford Loop back to 2tph, I knew it was too good to be true!)

Correction : just realised the off peak trains are all terminating at Blackfriars rather than running through the core. So this is the worst service we’ve had since it transferred to FCC in 2008.

 

[Aictos]

Yes, I thought it would be at least a little bit smaller, the 'Doncaster to King's Cross' suggestion was exaggeration for effect, but if I understand correctly somewhat remote control of a larger area is already in place at Three Bridges and remote signaling of a wider area is the medium term objective? Presumably for now, then the relevant signalers have the opportunity and local knowledge to facilitate recovery where possible. Do you know how the 'desks' at King's Cross are divided up in terms of the geographical areas they cover?

The following panels at Kings Cross are as follows:

Kings Cross to Holloway including the Up Goods as far as Finsbury Park aka Panel 1
Finsbury Park to Hornsey aka Panel 2
Hornsey to Brookmans Park and to Cuffley aka Panel 3
Brookmans Park to Knebworth and Cuffley to Watton at Stone aka Panel 4
Knebworth to Biggleswade/Royston and Watton at Stone to Stevenage aka Panel 5

The Hertford Loop has it's own Westcad panel which controls Langley Junction to Palmers Green

 

[notverydeep]

You’ll be doing the work of five signallers, but it is just about manageable.

I have had a limited amount of experience of being in signal control rooms and watching / talking to signallers and controllers, particularly during first few days of operation of new timetables, but not on any routes operated by GTR. Hence my asking the question - do you know how is the workload of the five signallers at King's Cross (and assume you mean five per shift) divided up?

If the area corresponding to the Open Train Times King's Cross to Hitchin map is entirely covered one signaller, I can imagine that the chance of spotting the sort of recovery opportunity in my earlier post (#3609) is quite low. If on the other hand one signaller only covers say just the up lines from Stevenage to Alexandra Palace via WGC, then they could reasonably expect to pick most such opportunities up simply by following the late running trains...

Thanks to Class 403 for clarifying while I typed the above, do you know if the crossovers at Potters Bar come under panel 3 or 4?

 

[Expression357]

Anyone know why two successive St Albans - Sutton loop stoppers were terminated at Kentish Town at 8.21 and 8.36? The BedPan stoppers are still getting a very raw deal in all this. 35-min gap in the northbound p.m. peak (up from 30 in the previous post-20 May timetable), against a regular 15-minute service pre-May 20. Compounds the disgrace. GTR spits in our face.

Trespass Incident at Tulse Hill, emergency traction current discharge. Terminated and detrained there as nowhere to go that wouldn’t have spread further delay.

 

[jon0844]

I thought panel 3 went to Hatfield and 4 was WGC to Hitchin.

 

[Stampy]

1 would presume that 3 Bridges ROC would be able to "see" trains approaching their "patch" approaching Canal Street tunnels......

Slightly off topic whilst mentioning ROC's...

I'm interested to see how the system will cope when Peterborough PSB goes, as it's area will probably be covered by 3 ROC's (York, EMCC & Romford/Colchester ROC) - be good if one of THEM goes up the Swannee!!!!

 

[Kanrakuq]

Hitchin arrivals board right now for the next two hours of evening rush hour — 22 trains, none cancelled, all on time. I know this should be the norm, but still, can’t help feeling happy anyway. Not seen that for a very long time!

 

[ijmad]

Correction : just realised the off peak trains are all terminating at Blackfriars rather than running through the core. So this is the worst service we’ve had since it transferred to FCC in 2008.

Yeah, I noticed this.

Hopefully we'll get our promised 4tph back at some point before the end of the year.

 

[tsr]

Not doing brilliantly on routes via East Croydon tonight. At least a couple of East Grinstead services cancelled due to lack of driver resources, plus 700136 was a very naughty train and sat down on the Up Slow south of Purley for some time (just terminated and now ECS).

 

[jimney]

Can anyone explain to me why the Northbound service seems more regular than the Southbound on the GN inners?

E.g. from my local stations of Brookmans Park and Welham Green during the evening peak coming out of London we have a fairly regular every 15 minute all stations train. In the morning things are a lot more all over the place; still 4tph, but with varying stopping patterns and timings.

Off-peak under the interim timetable is also confusing. Northbound, train every half an hour. Southbound two trains an hour but both call within 16 minutes of each other, leaving us 44 minutes without a service (worst planned service gap I think we've had since I started travelling many years ago!)

 

[Hadders]

I am in shock.

The 1816 from St Pancras arrived a minute early at Stevenage!