Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[physics34]

I wasn't disputing that they have been a less than perfect TOC, just like Connex, FCC and others. I was surprised that just replacing them with an unknown was a benefit like getting a better service as in:
"If it succeeds then we get a reliable service but keep GTR. If it fails we have a rubbish service but hopefully get rid of GTR."
Even if GTR has their management contract curtailed, they will be replaced by another profit-seeking commercial company from the buggins-turn pool, AND, they will do what the DfT tells them. That's the problem with harbouring an all-consuming hatred. We should all be careful of what we wish for.

...although im quite confident it cannot be any worse. GTR continue to shoot themselves in the foot at every given opportunity. Maybe another company wouldnt be so sloppy.

 

[greyman42]

They advertise brand new experience from July the 15th, I judge from July the 15th.

I think most passengers would simply settle for going back to the old one.

 

[OwenB]

...although im quite confident it cannot be any worse. GTR continue to shoot themselves in the foot at every given opportunity. Maybe another company wouldnt be so sloppy.

Whether a different company managing the contract would be better or worse isn't really in people's thinking. Commuters want some repercussions for having their lives detrimentally affected over the past two months. Who can blame them?

 

[mmh]

I wasn't disputing that they have been a less than perfect TOC, just like Connex, FCC and others. I was surprised that just replacing them with an unknown was a benefit like getting a better service as in:
"If it succeeds then we get a reliable service but keep GTR. If it fails we have a rubbish service but hopefully get rid of GTR."
Even if GTR has their management contract curtailed, they will be replaced by another profit-seeking commercial company from the buggins-turn pool, AND, they will do what the DfT tells them. That's the problem with harbouring an all-consuming hatred. We should all be careful of what we wish for.

And the problem with apologism is how long do you keep giving the benefit of the doubt. Will you be saying the same in another two months? I'll take "all-consuming hatred" over that.

 

[physics34]

Whether a different company managing the contract would be better or worse isn't really in people's thinking. Commuters want some repercussions for having their lives detrimentally affected over the past two months. Who can blame them?

the issue is also that its been 4 years not 2 months (barring GN passengers).

 

[jon0844]

But it is GTR that have claimed everything was going to be perfect from today. You knew it wasn’t. They knew it wasn’t. Nothing stopped them saying July 17th was the beginning of stability did they. This is a GTR own goal. They didn’t prepare again.

I don't recall them being stupid enough to say today would be perfect. Sunday is a terrible day to start. World Cup final day is insane. It should have been launched tomorrow, hence me wondering if Sunday has to be set because the railway works on Sunday as the start of a working week?

There will still be cancelled trains with the new timetable, even if for different reasons than today. Trains were cancelled before May 20th and there will still be train faults. Of course whenever any train is cancelled in the future it will be put down to the timetable, but I would hope that such issues will be rare now every driver should have a clear diagram and turn up at the right location to find the right train to work.

On Friday just gone, the morning peak was pretty good and no worse than pre-May 20. The 0732 from WGC had a door fault, which was later meant to run fast to King's Cross but ongoing issues meant it remained in the sidings and later formed the 0856 to Cambridge starting at WGC (people from KGX to HAT left out as the service should have been there). Otherwise it was a few late inbound trains having an impact on the return workings, but no trains left on the platform with no driver or stop orders being refused for fast trains south. I think there were a couple of KGX trains cancelled on platform 2, but at least at this time in the morning there isn't too long to wait for another (and of course everyone can board a train starting at WGC).

I believe the delays with Moorgate trains was down to a trespasser, and there was another trespass incident Saturday. In fact, I think there have been 5 trespass incidents in the last week or so. 30 minutes of cautioning can have an impact for 3-4 hours. It's not even the school holidays yet. The problem for GTR is anything that goes wrong will be proof the new timetable doesn't work.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't recall them being stupid enough to say today would be perfect. Sunday is a terrible day to start. World Cup final day is insane. It should have been launched tomorrow, hence me wondering if Sunday has to be set because the railway works on Sunday as the start of a working week?

There will still be cancelled trains with the new timetable, even if for different reasons than today. Trains were cancelled before May 20th and there will still be train faults. Of course whenever any train is cancelled in the future it will be put down to the timetable, but I would hope that such issues will be rare now every driver should have a clear diagram and turn up at the right location to find the right train to work.

On Friday just gone, the morning peak was pretty good and no worse than pre-May 20. The 0732 from WGC had a door fault, which was later meant to run fast to King's Cross but ongoing issues meant it remained in the sidings and later formed the 0856 to Cambridge starting at WGC (people from KGX to HAT left out as the service should have been there). Otherwise it was a few late inbound trains having an impact on the return workings, but no trains left on the platform with no driver or stop orders being refused for fast trains south. I think there were a couple of KGX trains cancelled on platform 2, but at least at this time in the morning there isn't too long to wait for another (and of course everyone can board a train starting at WGC).

I believe the delays with Moorgate trains was down to a trespasser, and there was another trespass incident Saturday. In fact, I think there have been 5 trespass incidents in the last week or so. 30 minutes of cautioning can have an impact for 3-4 hours. It's not even the school holidays yet. The problem for GTR is anything that goes wrong will be proof the new timetable doesn't work.

Read the twitter feed and press releases. All stating the the fact 15th July is when the stable service starts. They stated the date. They could have picked a later one.

 

[jon0844]

I agree they should, but if it has to be a Sunday then do you really think they should have waited a week? Sunday's have been a write-off for months. Hardly anyone travels (just as well given there are quite a few 4 car trains going around today as 12 and 8 cars are split up to fill gaps).

 

[Failed Unit]

I wasn't disputing that they have been a less than perfect TOC, just like Connex, FCC and others. I was surprised that just replacing them with an unknown was a benefit like getting a better service as in:
"If it succeeds then we get a reliable service but keep GTR. If it fails we have a rubbish service but hopefully get rid of GTR."
Even if GTR has their management contract curtailed, they will be replaced by another profit-seeking commercial company from the buggins-turn pool, AND, they will do what the DfT tells them. That's the problem with harbouring an all-consuming hatred. We should all be careful of what we wish for.

But how long do you trust a supplier before you withdraw the contract. They haven’t delivered anything successfully so far. You can’t keep forgiving them and letting them make lots of money.

FCC were not perfect but at least they got extra capacity on the network in terms of more 313s and 321s. Performance was ok.

When central trains lost the franchise- EMT improved things (the timetable is the same) just operated better. They were also shafted by CT legacy of incompetence. (Who was the MD)

Yes it may be a gamble. But so is keeping GTR. Who so far have failed every delivery they committed to including today. So I take the view new blood can’t be worse. We can’t reward failure.

 

[Failed Unit]

I agree they should, but if it has to be a Sunday then do you really think they should have waited a week? Sunday's have been a write-off for months. Hardly anyone travels (just as well given there are quite a few 4 car trains going around today as 12 and 8 cars are split up to fill gaps).

Who says it has to be Sunday? They haven’t had a published timetable for weeks. They could have selected any date. Passengers would be no wiser.

 

[43094]

The timetable was on a hiding to nothing for today, due to the World Cup final amongst other things, and the fact that Sundays are outside the working week.

The number of Drivers who made themselves available for today on the GN side is very, very low... the sort of number that makes you do a double-take and go 'HOW many'?!

Fingers crossed tomorrow will be the start of something more reliable, at least Monday - Saturday.

 

[elstreepilot]

I completely understand the frequently voiced sentiment that GTR must be removed. Well, all of the senior management anyway.

What I have not seen are any thoughts about how this would actually work the day after they’re fired. Surely any replacement ToC could need months to set up timetables, rosters, liaising with NR and the DfT and whatever else, before they could start a viable and workable service. I’m assuming this would be profoundly more complex than the recent start of LNER.

I’m assuming there’s nothing in GTR’s operations manual which would be of any use and, unless they already have a very large box of fully trained drivers, we would surely face a lengthy and doubtless painful handover period?

I say “we”, but I’m actually at the southern end of LNWR (other abbreviations are available), so I realise just how fortunate I am. Has the Abbey Flyer seen a significant increase in rush hour traffic, or is it really the case that St Albans is not at the very sharp end of all the suffering.

 

[sefton]

The timetable was on a hiding to nothing for today, due to the World Cup final amongst other things, and the fact that Sundays are outside the working week.

A crazy situation in itself.

If the train companies want to have stupid contracts they should suffer when they fail to deliver. Perhaps exponential fines for failing to run a service on a Sunday due to the lack of a driver may concentrate their minds.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The timetable was on a hiding to nothing for today, due to the World Cup final amongst other things, and the fact that Sundays are outside the working week.

The number of Drivers who made themselves available for today on the GN side is very, very low... the sort of number that makes you do a double-take and go 'HOW many'?!

Fingers crossed tomorrow will be the start of something more reliable, at least Monday - Saturday.

that's the bit that is beyond me... how, in this day and age, can a service provider wishing to provide an intensive service still be relying on good will and volunteering for sunday working? The bus industry grasped this nettle over 30 yrs ago, and most, if not all, companies with intensive sunday operations have them rostered in as part of the normal working week!

 

[Failed Unit]

that's the bit that is beyond me... how, in this day and age, can a service provider wishing to provide an intensive service still be relying on good will and volunteering for sunday working? The bus industry grasped this nettle over 30 yrs ago, and most, if not all, companies with intensive sunday operations have them rostered in as part of the normal working week!

Also a bit of a chicken and egg here.

The drivers are treated badly - why would anyone volunteer to work to get abuse from the public because the company you work for can’t provide a basic timetable. You are not going to volunteer to do a job that isn’t pleasant.

GTR also can’t provide the drivers with an indication of what shifts are available, again because they are incapable of producing a timetable. A driver may be happy to work in the morning. However doesn’t know what shifts are available so doesn’t volunteer.

Sunday’s has being bad for ages. GTR are not the only ones that rely on volunteers. You could always tell when national express was pissing of the drivers as Sunday’s suffered. GTR treat people badly, why go the extra mile for them?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Also a bit of a chicken and egg here.

The drivers are treated badly - why would anyone volunteer to work to get abuse from the public because the company you work for can’t provide a basic timetable. You are not going to volunteer to do a job that isn’t pleasant.

GTR also can’t provide the drivers with an indication of what shifts are available, again because they are incapable of producing a timetable. A driver may be happy to work in the morning. However doesn’t know what shifts are available so doesn’t volunteer.

Sunday’s has being bad for ages. GTR are not the only ones that rely on volunteers. You could always tell when national express was pissing of the drivers as Sunday’s suffered. GTR treat people badly, why go the extra mile for them?

I fully agree... but if GTR are the only TOC still relying on rest day working to cover sundays doesn't that just add another proof to the argument that the management are incompetent?

 

[sefton]

The drivers are treated badly - why would anyone volunteer to work to get abuse from the public because the company you work for can’t provide a basic timetable. You are not going to volunteer to do a job that isn’t pleasant.

So there are two options the train companies have to run their 7 day a week schedule -

1. Leave it as it is with Sundays relying on volunteers but you will inevitably get occasions when people don't volunteer.
2. Change their employment contracts so they don't have to reply on volunteers as Sundays are just part of the working week.

What needs to happen is that option 1 is not a financially beneficial position for the train companies due to the impact of their customers. The penalties for failing to deliver if they have gone for option 1 should be be so high they make the CEO's eyes water.

 

[43074]

I fully agree... but if GTR are the only TOC still relying on rest day working to cover sundays doesn't that just add another proof to the argument that the management are incompetent?

Rest day working (RDW) is relied on by all TOCs every day of the week to a degree; you could argue that GTR could have taken the opportunity to reduce their dependency on RDW though given how widespread and critical the timetable changes were. The fact that much of the route learning for May 18 was planned on the assumption of drivers using their rest days for this (which understandably many didn't do anyway) shows this dependency has come back to bite, in spectacular fashion, but it is by no means an issue exclusively with GTR.

 

[Failed Unit]

Rest day working (RDW) is relied on by all TOCs every day of the week to a degree; you could argue that GTR could have taken the opportunity to reduce their dependency on RDW though given how widespread and critical the timetable changes were. The fact that much of the route learning for May 18 was planned on the assumption of drivers using their rest days for this (which understandably many didn't do anyway) shows this dependency has come back to bite, in spectacular fashion, but it is by no means an issue exclusively with GTR.

The other thing I would add is the should have planned for this for years. Yes other TOCs have problems at weekends but great northern has not ran a reliable Sunday service for about 2 years once they started running into Moorgate on Sunday’s.

You don’t see the IC operators suffering in this way. Don’t know how they have resolved it, but I am sure GTR has the same levers. If they cared about providing a decent service. (When I say levers I mean carrots rather than sticks. Using sticks normally makes things much worse.)

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Rest day working (RDW) is relied on by all TOCs every day of the week to a degree; you could argue that GTR could have taken the opportunity to reduce their dependency on RDW though given how widespread and critical the timetable changes were. The fact that much of the route learning for May 18 was planned on the assumption of drivers using their rest days for this (which understandably many didn't do anyway) shows this dependency has come back to bite, in spectacular fashion, but it is by no means an issue exclusively with GTR.

I was referring to the archaic practice of having no drivers rostered to work sundays...ie utilising a 6 day rota when you operate 7 days a week

 

[Envy123]

I casually checked the departure boards at Kings Cross (KGX), Farringdon (ZFD) and St Pancras (STP) - and I was shocked at what I saw.

No fast services to places like Letchworth, and only the slow Cambridge trains seem to be operating (to get to Letchworth)? Surely that can't be right?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

having just discovered this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-class-319s-into-storage.141248/ started in jan 17 I have a question.... if the 319's went into storage then, what was Thameslink using between then and the timetable change this May? I just wondered seeing as though lack of traction knowledge on the 700's is being partly blamed for the problems TL are having with the new timetable....

 

[BRX]

Read the twitter feed and press releases. All stating the the fact 15th July is when the stable service starts. They stated the date. They could have picked a later one.

I've had a look through the twitter feed etc. The timetable from the 15th has been described as 'amended', 'interim' and intended to provide a 'more consistent and reliable' service. I certainly can't see that they've claimed it will be perfect. I can't even see where they've said it will be 'stable'. There have also been lots of posts saying to expect disruption on the 15th itself.

 

[malc-c]

To be pedant, the role of Station Master was lost when BR got privatised and replaced with the role of Station Manager.

There was probably a proper Station Master in about 1966 , now you have distant and commercial / safety compliance "managers" at say Stevenage ...

Er, if you're going to be pedantic BR were calling them Station Managers well before privatisation. I was one nigh on 30 years ago

To be even more pedantic, the roles of Station Manager/Area Manager etc predated privatisation by about 25 years.

LOL - you guys crack me up with the one-upmanship over a simple mistaken use of a single word...

 

[contractor]

Let's say that GTR are removed and someone/something else takes over, which people are TUPEd over and which are actually going to be out of a job?

Eg are operational staff like drivers, station staff transferred and head of department and above let go?

Let's assume another organisation steps in, how many ex-GTR decision-makers will just simply reapply, maybe on contract?

 

[swt_passenger]

Let's say that GTR are removed and someone/something else takes over, which people are TUPEd over and which are actually going to be out of a job?

Eg are operational staff like drivers, station staff transferred and head of department and above let go?

Let's assume another organisation steps in, how many ex-GTR decision-makers will just simply reapply, maybe on contract?

Everyone who is salaried is able to be TUPEd across. Basically everyone below board level is protected. That’s why “getting rid of the TOC” is almost meaningless.

 

[Failed Unit]

Everyone who is salaried is able to be TUPEd across. Basically everyone below board level is protected. That’s why “getting rid of the TOC” is almost meaningless.

Partly true. The culture of lying and treating passengers with contempt is / was lead by Nick Brown and Charles Horton themselves. Horton was caught lying to national media on multiple occasions. Get rid of GTR it is possible a more customer focused senior management team will take over.

If this shambles is accountable to anyone who is likely to be Tuped over - they would already have being scapegoated.

 

[jon0844]

Rest day working (RDW) is relied on by all TOCs every day of the week to a degree; you could argue that GTR could have taken the opportunity to reduce their dependency on RDW though given how widespread and critical the timetable changes were. The fact that much of the route learning for May 18 was planned on the assumption of drivers using their rest days for this (which understandably many didn't do anyway) shows this dependency has come back to bite, in spectacular fashion, but it is by no means an issue exclusively with GTR.

The new contract drivers have accepted, with a rather substantial 5 year pay deal (with 1 year backdated) has some Sunday working now compulsory. Ultimately, I am sure the DfT must approve anything major like this because operators come and go.

I don't know if it is true, but there were whispers that drivers were being offered quite a substantial amount of money to work this Sunday. I assume they still refused*.

* As ever refused is possibly not the best word, as they are not forced to work on a rest day. They just turned down the chance of some extra money, which as pay levels increase is easy to do. Work/life balance and all that.

 

[swt_passenger]

having just discovered this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-class-319s-into-storage.141248/ started in jan 17 I have a question.... if the 319's went into storage then, what was Thameslink using between then and the timetable change this May? I just wondered seeing as though lack of traction knowledge on the 700's is being partly blamed for the problems TL are having with the new timetable....

It wasn’t as straightforward as stop 319, start 700, there was also the 377s and 387s. I’m sure the exact date is around somewhere in the depths of the Class 700 thread, but there was a year or so where 319s were running down and 387 and then 700 numbers ramped up.

 

[Domh245]

having just discovered this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-class-319s-into-storage.141248/ started in jan 17 I have a question.... if the 319's went into storage then, what was Thameslink using between then and the timetable change this May? I just wondered seeing as though lack of traction knowledge on the 700's is being partly blamed for the problems TL are having with the new timetable....

Variously 700s, 377s, and 387s. The first 700 entered service in June 2016 and the final 319 service was in August 2017 - however it is generally speaking not the traction knowledge that is an issue but the route knowledge as far as I'm aware