Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Steve Harris]

Right back to when the preview services ran there was an understanding that trains couldn't divert easily into the Cross.. and would be cancelled at Finsbury Park. Now it seems that isn't the case either and the trains must continue on, regardless of the chaos caused.

Caping these trains seems like the only way to fix things until a driver can go all the way on his/her own.

At Finsbury Park ?

Finsbury Park just simply doesn't have the passenger capicaty.

 

[Steve Harris]

Which requires more units - the 700 fleet is just enough to deliver the 2020 timetable.

I will leave it there as you seem to be set in your ways and unable to think out of the box.

Meanwhile everyone else has to suffer not being able to get to school, work or meet friends on time.

While loads of units sit idle awaiting substantial numbers of drivers to be trained on the 50+ miles of new routes.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I will leave it there as you seem to be set in your ways and unable to think out of the box.

Meanwhile everyone else has to suffer not being able to get to school, work or meet friends on time.

I'm yet to be persuaded of why places like Bedford (where the Littlehampton service will provide 2tph) should lose out. A good short term solution perhaps, but long term these services need to go further out.

Did I ever say anything that endorsed the current practice of GTR cancelling services like there is no tomorrow?

 

[kw12]

Being an optimist, at some point things will have to start to slowly improve, if only as they can't really get any worse.

I was wondering what metrics and statistics would be good to track this.

Could some be deceiving, i.e. statistics around lateness may become worse as less trains are canceled, which would not reflect the improvement in more trains running.
I wondered if simply the number of trains running through the core (especially in the peak) might be a good metric to track.

Any thoughts on what can show an over-all picture as to how well - or how badly - (mostly the latter) things are performing (relatively) on a day to day basis, and are there useful websites to access these?

thanks

Here are some stats on how many trains operated (in passenger service) through the core each weekday last week, based on the details published on Real Time Trains for Farringdon.

4th 5th 6th 7th 8th
Northbound timetabled 195 198 197 194 193
Northbound ran 151 160 152 143 151
Southbound timetabled 199 191 194 190 185
Southbound ran 161 153 156 149 150

% of reduced timetable that ran 79% 79% 79% 76% 80%


Of the trains that ran, the number of trains that ran through the core to or from Cambridge, Peterborough or Bedford were:

4th 5th 6th 7th 8th
Cambridge - Brighton 7 4 3 3 4
Brighton - Cambridge 7 6 4 3 4
Three Bridges - Cambridge 0 0 0 0 1

Peterborough - Horsham 6 6 9 7 4
Peterborough - Gatwick Airport 1 1 1 1 1
Peterborough - elsewhere 1 1 2 0 1
Horsham - Peterborough 2 4 4 3 1
Gatwick Airport - Peterborough 4 3 4 3 3
Elsewhere - Peterborough 1 1 4 0 0

Bedford - Brighton 24 24 21 23 22
Bedford - Gatwick Airport 17 19 16 17 19
Bedford - elsewhere 15 13 22 13 13
Brighton - Bedford 21 24 22 23 23
Gatwick Airport - Bedford 15 17 19 14 12
Elsewhere - Bedford 21 21 16 19 26

 

[jon0844]

At Finsbury Park ?

Finsbury Park just simply doesn't have the passenger capicaty.

No, not running at all if there's no guarantee of a driver being at FPK to take it forward. Run a service to KGX instead (with a timetable that means it goes out soon after, not an hour or more) or shuttle people to Stevenage to get other services to KGX.

Once drivers have the route knowledge in sufficient numbers, reintroduce the trains.

 

[Steve Harris]

I'm yet to be persuaded of why places like Bedford (where the Littlehampton service will provide 2tph) should lose out. A good short term solution perhaps, but long term these services need to go further out.

You can't loose something you never had!

Up here in GN land we have a Peterborough - Horsham service, but i have never been on it because when i get the time to travel on it, it's cancelled!!

Did I ever say anything that endorsed the current practice of GTR cancelling services like there is no tomorrow?

No, but some posters on here (including myself) are trying to come up with possible solutions and you are coming across as being (dare i say it, but) defeatist.

If you have a better idea, I'm all ears!

 

[The Box Photter]

And where do you propose the new management team are funded from?

Your anti-Thameslink rhetoric is plausible, but having a go isn't going to solve the problem.

Trust me, my anti-rail privatisation, anti-fare gouging and anti-Thameslink rhetoric isn't rhetoric. I believe in it wholeheartedly.

The railway, like water, power and gas, is a national asset, which should be run as a public service, by a non-profit organisation, for the benefit of passengers.

 

[Steve Harris]

No, not running at all if there's no guarantee of a driver being at FPK to take it forward. Run a service to KGX instead (with a timetable that means it goes out soon after, not an hour or more) or shuttle people to Stevenage to get other services to KGX.

Is it or is it not what is already happening at weekends with all services going into KGX?

Or why not run them and just divert them to Kings Cross (as the path to Belle Isle is already there)!

 

[The Box Photter]

This seems to fail to grasp the idea that some people actually need to get through London and out the other side - maybe not every day - but through trains make this much easier.

Even with terminal stations, Victoria a prime example, 12 car trains come in from the coast and return to the coast - how is this different to a Littlehampton train going to Bedford and a Bedford train going to Littlehampton with much less downtime than if they were at a terminal station.

Its roughly twice the distance and involves navigating "the core", plus a change of power supply at City Thameslink. By extending the distance travelled, the risk of disruption increases exponentially, especially when the wires come down or some poor unfortunate decides to end it all under an EMT service at Leagrave or Harlington. Or more regularly, there's a power failure or signal failure in the Bedford area.

 

[Agent_Squash]

You can't loose something you never had!

Up here in GN land we have a Peterborough - Horsham service, but i have never been on it because when i get the time to travel on it, it's cancelled!!



No, but some posters on here (including myself) are trying to come up with possible solutions and you are coming across as being (dare i say it, but) defeatist.

If you have a better idea, I'm all ears!

I think TL should half the frequency of new routes until further notice, with 1tph for route learning. This will allow much quicker learning albeit with the need to strengthen Victoria/KGX services.

 

[mmh]

But why isn't it working? No drivers are trained on the route.

I think this is the problem with the large majority of TL criticism. Your idea would still be subject to delays as drivers simply don't have the route knowledge yet.

I think the big elephant in the room that nobody in the media has, unsurprisingly, mentioned but more surprisingly doesn't seem to have been mentioned on here, is some drivers moved to new depots in preparation for the change.

That's surely the real reason you can't revert a timetable. If it wasn't for staffing of course you could. All of the trains can go everywhere, if the drivers have a route they can drive it - not ignoring that route knowledge isn't an obvious problem otherwise you wouldn't have the diversions through south london which often happen.

 

[Steve Harris]

I think TL should half the frequency of new routes until further notice, with 1tph for route learning. This will allow much quicker learning albeit with the need to strengthen Victoria/KGX services.

Good idea but, where are you going to get all the extra Instructors from ?

It has already been proven that 1 training run cancels more than 1 service.

Up here in GN land we have had 2 or 3 hour gaps in a 2tph service.

 

[GoatSarah]

I think TL should half the frequency of new routes until further notice, with 1tph for route learning. This will allow much quicker learning albeit with the need to strengthen Victoria/KGX services.

The BTN-CBG route was only timetabled to be 1tph anyway!

 

[Agent_Squash]

Good idea but, where are you going to get all the extra Instructors from ?

It has already been proven that 1 training run cancels more than 1 service.

Up here in GN land we have had 2 or 3 hour gaps in a 2tph service.

That's the problem. Paths on the SEML are very much short in supply, making it harder to terminate trains. Personally, I'm a supporter of using Virtual Reality for route learning purposes, which will massively speed up the process.

 

[mmh]

That's the problem. Paths on the SEML are very much short in supply, making it harder to terminate trains. Personally, I'm a supporter of using Virtual Reality for route learning purposes, which will massively speed up the process.

As mentioned on here before many, many, many times, it's really not as simple as that. Videos have their place to show somewhere before you see it but they don't replace actual experience.

 

[Steve Harris]

That's the problem. Paths on the SEML are very much short in supply, making it harder to terminate trains. Personally, I'm a supporter of using Virtual Reality for route learning purposes, which will massively speed up the process.

Even if VR was used (which i believe is actually not currently available) you would still need a certain number of trips with a Instructor for him to be able to asses the drivers competence.

 

[Agent_Squash]

As mentioned on here before many, many, many times, it's really not as simple as that. Videos have their place to show somewhere before you see it but they don't replace actual experience.

Virtual reality is not just ‘a video’ - it’s 360 (or 180) degrees view of the route. I think it has the potential to significantly reduce the amount of learning trips required.

Even if VR was used (which i believe is actually not currently available) you would still need a certain number of trips with a Instructor for him to be able to asses the drivers competence.

VR is currently used for some training purpose in rail already. I think it’s a great technology to take advantage of.

 

[bramling]

Which requires more units - the 700 fleet is just enough to deliver the 2020 timetable.

No problem - any KX vice core services can revert to 365s. 11 still off-lease stored at Ely, no issue at all with traction knowledge.

Kudos for who places the closest bet on when the first 365 comes out of store back to GN!

 

[bramling]

Virtual reality is not just ‘a video’ - it’s 360 (or 180) degrees view of the route. I think it has the potential to significantly reduce the amount of learning trips required.



VR is currently used for some training purpose in rail already. I think it’s a great technology to take advantage of.

Not sure to be honest. I’d say things just don’t sink in as effectively. I suspect many would feel the same.

 

[gingerheid]

I'm confused by the timetable for tomorrow.

It's much the same timetable as they haven't come anywhere close to running any other day, so I wonder if they have a specific reason for believing they can run it tomorrow rather than an unspecified aspiration.

 

[GoatSarah]

I'm confused by the timetable for tomorrow.

It's much the same timetable as they haven't come anywhere close to running any other day, so I wonder if they have a specific reason for believing they can run it tomorrow rather than an unspecified aspiration.

Well I stayed on the south coast an extra day. Hoping to get back to Cambridge tomorrow morning after the peak. Let's see what happens. Prepared to have to get creative.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm confused by the timetable for tomorrow.

It's much the same timetable as they haven't come anywhere close to running any other day, so I wonder if they have a specific reason for believing they can run it tomorrow rather than an unspecified aspiration.

No trains for Cambridgeshire villages between 0627 and 0757. Ie the entire rush hour.

 

[Steve Harris]

VR is currently used for some training purpose in rail already. I think it’s a great technology to take advantage of.

Which purposes are they ?

Is it currently being used for route knowledge training ?

 

[WeGoAgain]

Not sure to be honest. I’d say things just don’t sink in as effectively. I suspect many would feel the same.

Yes, 'feel' is very useful in learning a route. It can be very useful in Foggy conditions also.

The feel in Sims are either non existent or a good replica (aircraft), but not quite the real thing.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Which purposes are they ?

Is it currently being used for route knowledge training ?

Not route learning specifically, but for other skills training (mainly in depots)

Yes, 'feel' is very useful in learning a route. It can be very useful in Foggy conditions also.

The feel in Sims are either non existent or a good replica (aircraft), but not quite the real thing.

I don't think it should make up a driver's whole training - but it would allow some reduction in the amount of route learning trips.

 

[otomous]

The original service pattern joined the Great Northern stoppers and the majority of Southern trains that go via the fasts from London Bridge to East Croydon, thus freeing terminating capacity at London Bridge and Kings Cross. Hence the East Grinsteads, peak only coastals, Horshams and Tattenham Corners. Uckfield was not included for obvious reasons and the peak Epsom/Dorkings were presumably deemed too risky due to the sheer number of conflicts they encounter from Norwood Junction onwards. I'm guessing at some point it was realised that 8 cars was wasted on Tattenhams, aside from the Windmill Bridge Junction issue. So Grinsteads are joined to Bedfords on the basis that an up Grinstead becomes a down Bedford rather than it having to turn to turn round elsewhere such as London Bridge.

 

[ComUtoR]

It has already been proven that 1 training run cancels more than 1 service.

How so ?

 

[Minstral25]

Good idea but, where are you going to get all the extra Instructors from ?

It has already been proven that 1 training run cancels more than 1 service.

Up here in GN land we have had 2 or 3 hour gaps in a 2tph service.

Down here in Southern Land where three Quarters of our service has been converted to Thameslink from Southern, we have four hour gaps in a 4 trains per hour service, including right through the evening peak. Tonight after 5:30pm, we only have one train timetabled until 8:50pm in a 4tph service.

Trying to push 4 crowded trains worth of passengers onto an already overcrowded 2 tph service from Victoria just doesn't work. However between 4 and 5:30pm there are 6 trains running - why can't they be more spread out rather than all run together then a gap of 6-8 trains without service

 

[farleigh]

In my view, Thameslink has now failed.

It s more than a blip and they will struggle to rid the name Thameslink of the odour of uncaring unreliability.

 

[700007]

In my view, Thameslink has now failed.

It s more than a blip and they will struggle to rid the name Thameslink of the odour of uncaring unreliability.

No, ThamesLink itself has not failed.

Govia ThamesLink Railway meanwhile has.