Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[FOH]

Don’t forget that if we hadn’t spent all that money on the Gibb report after the Southern debacle things would’ve been even worse

 

[OwenB]

Any inquiry would do well to start by reading this thread and the very many considered, well-explained and illuminating posts on the reality of this monumental screw-up, not to mention all the positive suggestions on how to improve things.

An inquiry... That will help me get to and from work over the next few days and weeks.

 

[MikeWh]

Greenwich is by far more important an area than Sidcup or New Eltham and cannot simply have 4tph or this basic service

You are absolutely correct. Which is why Greenwich has 12 trains an hour each way on the DLR.

 

[philjo]

RTT, GTR journeycheck, the station screens at Letchworth and various journey planners were all showing the 0712 Baldock to Kings Cross as Cancelled this morning. However I understand that the train turned up unannounced so it was fairly empty leaving Letchworth as no-one knew it was running! I ended up going to the London office today as I would have a 2 hour wait for a stopping service to Potters Bar.

 

[ijmad]

How long does it take a driver to learn a route? What are the steps? Can multiple drivers be trained at once in the same cab?

 

[Taunton]

Any inquiry would do well to start by reading this thread and the very many considered, well-explained and illuminating posts on the reality of this monumental screw-up, not to mention all the positive suggestions on how to improve things.

I see that Stephen Glaister, heading the enquiry, has merely been described by the BBC as "A university Professor of Transport". As they undoubtedly just lifted this from the DfT press release, that too will have made no mention that he is, in addition, the Chair of ORR, a central part (and sometimes shown to be one of the weaker ones) of the government's rail bureaucracy. He is just going to take the various submissions from the bodies like GTR, the DfT, and Grayling himself, who we have been hearing from in recent days, at face value.

In fact, as the ORR are responsible for the economic regulation of the railway, I would have liked to have seen their role in all this put under scrutiny as part of the enquiry into how all this was allowed to happen. Which is obviously now not going to take place.

 

[tsr]

How long does it take a driver to learn a route? What are the steps? Can multiple drivers be trained at once in the same cab?

Anything from a week or two to months depending on length and complexity. Drivers will typically be issued a briefing on the route and then be expected to travel over it a set number of times and/or observe video footage of various movements on it. Particular care must then be taken to apply the route characteristics to their existing knowledge of how the appropriate rolling stock for the route will handle, not to mention unusual route features and any special regulations. There will need to be an assessment process of some sort as well.

The number of people in a cab depends if the driver in charge of the train is qualified recently or more experienced, and sometimes whether or not they have recently had any safety incidents, but a typical maximum for an experienced driver is 3 extra staff (who must hold appropriate passes), bearing in mind one of those 3 may be a pilot who is route-conducting them over the route anyway.

 

[jon0844]

Anything from a week or two to months depending on length and complexity. Drivers will typically be issued a briefing on the route and then be expected to travel over it a set number of times and/or observe video footage of various movements on it. Particular care must then be taken to apply the route characteristics to their existing knowledge of how the appropriate rolling stock for the route will handle, not to mention unusual route features and any special regulations. There will need to be an assessment process of some sort as well.

The number of people in a cab depends if the driver in charge of the train is qualified recently or more experienced, but a typical maximum for an experienced driver is 3 extra staff (who must hold appropriate passes), bearing in mind one of those 3 may be a pilot who is route-conducting them over the route anyway.

Don't they also have to learn a series of diversionary routes too?

 

[CentralTrainer]

Because Abbey Wood no longer needs the fasts, since it has both Thameslink and Crossrail and that’s a massive step up.

You are Charles Horton and I claim my £10.

Any news on when you’re going to grow some stones and resign?

 

[talldave]

I can't be bothered to reply to him anymore.I have asked him a couple of questions that he has just ignored.I would suggest everyone just ignores him

Talks like a GTR employee as far as I can tell!

 

[mmh]

Talks like a GTR employee as far as I can tell!

GTR management, surely - the Southern employees I know wouldn't defend them in an way

 

[Mikey C]

I'm watching the statement and questions. Grayling's performance is lamentable but entirely predictable. Everyone but him and the DfT are responsible for the mess. The only person who can oversee the fix is him so no point in him resigning. He has also tried to say that Network Rail's non performance gives support to his ideas for merging rail operation and maintenance. He has threatened to "punish" GTR (and Govia) at some point in the future. Also measures being looked at to get some peak South Eastern and East Midlands Trains services to call at selected stations to fill in the gaps caused by GTR's non performance. A compensation scheme (not defined) for both GTR and Northern passengers is also proposed.

Labour MPs have clearly decided to take a "he must resign, he is responsible" line of attack. Grayling naturally disagrees.

It is more telling that Tory MPs are clearly having to hold back from calling him "rude names" so as not to appear disloyal. Crispin Blunt, though, get very close to a dangerous blow by saying "He and the DfT have to accept they are part of the industry alongside everyone else". Clearly rail issues in Redhill (much documented here and elsewhere) are a significant issue for Mr Blunt.

Tory MPs loyalty will only last so long. Their constituents are some of the victims of this shambles, and MPs, especially in more marginal seats, will be extremely concerned that they will lose votes due to this, especially if the election is soon and they've not been seen taking some sort of action!

 

[ComUtoR]

The number of people in a cab depends if the driver in charge of the train is qualified recently or more experienced, and sometimes whether or not they have recently had any safety incidents, but a typical maximum for an experienced driver is 3 extra staff (who must hold appropriate passes), bearing in mind one of those 3 may be a pilot who is route-conducting them over the route anyway.

What GTR changed recently to accommodate route learning is F!"£$"£$!"£$"ing disgraceful.

 

[GordonT]

I see that Stephen Glaister, heading the enquiry, has merely been described by the BBC as "A university Professor of Transport". As they undoubtedly just lifted this from the DfT press release, that too will have made no mention that he is, in addition, the Chair of ORR, a central part (and sometimes shown to be one of the weaker ones) of the government's rail bureaucracy. He is just going to take the various submissions from the bodies like GTR, the DfT, and Grayling himself, who we have been hearing from in recent days, at face value.

In fact, as the ORR are responsible for the economic regulation of the railway, I would have liked to have seen their role in all this put under scrutiny as part of the enquiry into how all this was allowed to happen. Which is obviously now not going to take place.

Seems very much like appointing King Herod to oversee major deficiencies within the Judean child protection agencies.

 

[Minstral25]

London Bridge to Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley tonight - 16 consecutive trains cancelled from 16:51 to 20:30 (although technically the 17:30 went through 20 late having previously shown as cancelled for some time by which time everyone had given up on it) - almost impossible to get home for commuters - Southern service from East Croydon to Redhill - most trains overwhelmed by passenger load.

 

[the Rat]

You are Charles Horton and I claim my £10.

Any news on when you’re going to grow some stones and resign?

Ha, ha, I think you might be on to something here. If the next communique from GTR suggests he's somewhere on the South Coast carrying a copy of the TL emergency timetable, then it's game on...

 

[Cricketer8for9]

London Bridge to Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley tonight - 16 consecutive trains cancelled from 16:51 to 20:30 (although technically the 17:30 went through 20 late having previously shown as cancelled for some time by which time everyone had given up on it) - almost impossible to get home for commuters - Southern service from East Croydon to Redhill - most trains overwhelmed by passenger load.

All Thameslink or were Southern getting cancelled as well?

 

[gingerheid]

I pity the poor passengers from Cambridge that got dumped at Alexandra Palace earlier. At least Finsbury Park has a fighting chance of trains to some of the places they might have been wanting to go to!

 

[NorthKent1989]

So just because I’m trying to have an optimistic view on Thameslink I’m suddenly an employee of them, wow all Im doing is looking forward to what will eventually be a successful line, I never said there weren’t any issues, I don’t deny that, but I’m stating that Medway really doesn’t have much to complain about, and it’s true you can’t have semi fast trains on a busy two track railway on a very busy suburban line, personally there is no reason why this train can’t stop at Erith, Belvedere and Woolwich Dockyard, aren’t the so called “minor stations” that @NorthKent1989 calls them, deserving of a full 8tph metro service?

 

[ComUtoR]

personally there is no reason why this train can’t stop at Erith, Belvedere and Woolwich Dockyard,

There is a very good reason why those stops were missed.

 

[tsr]

Don't they also have to learn a series of diversionary routes too?

For some routes, yes. For others, there may not be any.

Don’t forget drivers also have to learn things like applicable shunt manoeuvres etc.

What GTR changed recently to accommodate route learning is F!"£$"£$!"£$"ing disgraceful.

Have heard rumours. Not seen any briefings though. Could you PM me?

 

[mrmartin]

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-timetable-change-accepting-the-blame/

More crucially though, the DfT also said that Govia had agreed to pay, up front, a flat fee of £10m. This would cover performance payments for any Thameslink disruption up until September 2018.


Confused, the Committee asked the Department to explain how agreeing fines in advance of services that had not yet been delivered was in the best interests of taxpayers or passengers. In reply, the DfT asserted that they felt the performance regime within the contract would actually not benefit passengers because of the amount of management time the DfT might have to spend ‘‘arguing over a huge number of detailed claims”. The DfT stressed to the committee that they believed they had made a reasonable assessment of the costs, based on what they believed would be the ‘worst case scenario of disruption’, so the amount was fair.

This is absolutely bonkers. DfT agreed an ahead of time fine of £10m for 'expected' disruption over the summer and rollout of the timetables. This really means GTR has 0 monetary incentive (at least from DfT fines - which must be the most important bit as it is a slimmed down management contract).

I think this probably explains the attitude of GTR - no real incentive to do anything that costs money as they can run the worst possible service and they won't get any financial trouble from the DfT.

 

[otomous]

Anything from a week or two to months depending on length and complexity. Drivers will typically be issued a briefing on the route and then be expected to travel over it a set number of times and/or observe video footage of various movements on it. Particular care must then be taken to apply the route characteristics to their existing knowledge of how the appropriate rolling stock for the route will handle, not to mention unusual route features and any special regulations. There will need to be an assessment process of some sort as well.

The number of people in a cab depends if the driver in charge of the train is qualified recently or more experienced, and sometimes whether or not they have recently had any safety incidents, but a typical maximum for an experienced driver is 3 extra staff (who must hold appropriate passes), bearing in mind one of those 3 may be a pilot who is route-conducting them over the route anyway.

Might be able to get three extra in the cab but they all need to be able to see out! In a 377 it’s two if one stands behind the driver and there isn’t always room to do that even.

It’s quite hard to get a very accurate idea of how long route learning takes. First there needs to someone qualified free to brief the drivers - that can be done in groups - then there is a minimum number of trips required, the undertaking of which depends on when the driver’s days on and off are; if they are driving instead; then they need to find a cab with space and a driver able to take them; and a train that is actually running. Bear in mind also that one can only route learn for a few hours before it becomes counterproductive ie no more is being absorbed. After all that you need a qualified assessor, again free, and again a suitable train to use. Marrying up trainers, drivers and trains is not necessarily straightforward. Driver A goes on rest days as Trainer A comes back from his and Driver B is already trained etc etc.

 

[MML]

It will be interesting to read an independent report into such a monumental failure to deliver the GTR timetable change which has been in the planning for so long.

I do wonder whether the modern business disease of project management has infected the rail industry. Today, we are led to believe nothing can be done without a huge project management organisation between senior management and subject matter experts.
Indeed we are constantly reminded that we cannot do without such people, their roadmaps or Gantt charts.

We do know that either Senior management at DfT, Network Rail and GTR were fully aware of the impending failure or they were being advised that everything was being correctly managed and deliverables were indeed being delivered, albeit with some challenges along the way.
It appears grass roots staff, technical staff and various subject matter experts recognised the failings and were not convinced that things were running as smoothly as the internal and external PR propaganda was extolling.

Drivers, driving instructors and driver managers knew they were behind on training and route knowledge accumulation.
Schedulers and timetabling staff recognised the timetable they were being asked to deliver did not match reality on the ground.
With a fragmented railway system, with lots of different companies each dependent on each other, there has been a growth in project management to oversee the interfaces and interaction of competing interests. Unfortunately, these people are in most cases 'generalists' delivering one project after another, sometimes with little understanding of the technicalities or practicalities involved.

Network Rail is full of these people, a burgeoning organisation almost wound up in its own policies and bureaucracy - with few wise railway experts left within the ranks of employees - and those that do remain are most likely stifled by the new business speak of those jostling to further their career in delivering the next 'exciting' project.

Project managers would lead us to believe their role is pivotal in successful delivery of projects. But their generalist nature with generic project management skills working across different industries, means this is often far from the truth.
The reality is the senior management team become blind to the realities, since they are being briefed by project managers rather than senior technical experts from within the industry. The senior management then attempt to convince frontline staff that all is well, often using an internal propaganda machine to sell the message to bewildered staff. And external media are sold the same positive message by an external PR team.

The myth which has been sold by those non-technical project managers aims to show they are successfully delivering projects for which they are responsible. Senior management believe this, since they are now removed from reality and their subject matter experts. And neither the front line staff nor customers believe half of what they are told from the company propaganda machine since it rarely bears any resemblance to everyday reality and their daily experiences.

Unfortunately the independent investigation into the shambles will probably recommend a growth in project management and expensive consultants, since the usual excuse for failure of a project is lack of resources - rather than apportioning blame on those who incorrectly stated in their mind numbing Powerpoint presentations to the Executive Committee that they were delivering a project successfully.

 

[otomous]

It will be interesting to read an independent report into such a monumental failure to deliver the GTR timetable change which has been in the planning for so long.

I do wonder whether the modern business disease of project management has infected the rail industry. Today, we are led to believe nothing can be done without a huge project management organisation between senior management and subject matter experts.
Indeed we are constantly reminded that we cannot do without such people, their roadmaps or Gantt charts.

We do know that either Senior management at DfT, Network Rail and GTR were fully aware of the impending failure or they were being advised that everything was being correctly managed and deliverables were indeed being delivered, albeit with some challenges along the way.
It appears grass roots staff, technical staff and various subject matter experts recognised the failings and were not convinced that things were running as smoothly as the internal and external PR propaganda was extolling.

Drivers, driving instructors and driver managers knew they were behind on training and route knowledge accumulation.
Schedulers and timetabling staff recognised the timetable they were being asked to deliver did not match reality on the ground.
With a fragmented railway system, with lots of different companies each dependent on each other, there has been a growth in project management to oversee the interfaces and interaction of competing interests. Unfortunately, these people are in most cases 'generalists' delivering one project after another, sometimes with little understanding of the technicalities or practicalities involved.

Network Rail is full of these people, a burgeoning organisation almost wound up in its own policies and bureaucracy - with few wise railway experts left within the ranks of employees - and those that do remain are most likely stifled by the new business speak of those jostling to further their career in delivering the next 'exciting' project.

Project managers would lead us to believe their role is pivotal in successful delivery of projects. But their generalist nature with generic project management skills working across different industries, means this is often far from the truth.
The reality is the senior management team become blind to the realities, since they are being briefed by project managers rather than senior technical experts from within the industry. The senior management then attempt to convince frontline staff that all is well, often using an internal propaganda machine to sell the message to bewildered staff. And external media are sold the same positive message by an external PR team.

The myth which has been sold by those non-technical project managers aims to show they are successfully delivering projects for which they are responsible. Senior management believe this, since they are now removed from reality and their subject matter experts. And neither the front line staff nor customers believe half of what they are told from the company propaganda machine since it rarely bears any resemblance to everyday reality and their daily experiences.

Unfortunately the independent investigation into the shambles will probably recommend a growth in project management and expensive consultants, since the usual excuse for failure of a project is lack of resources - rather than apportioning blame on those who incorrectly stated in their mind numbing Powerpoint presentations to the Executive Committee that they were delivering a project successfully.

It's very frustrating. You mention about drivers and instructors knowing things were going badly - yet they are powerless to do anything. I've personally been in many a route learning scenario where my own actions have pushed things forward against apparent apathy, and that was for myself only. In the end many end up going with the tide because they despair at the inability to change anything.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think that there may well be another timetable shake up in December, I think there is a general consensus that people are rightfully p***ed off, this isn't just a regional thing or even a GTR thing (as much as I dislike them and cannot wait to see them make their final call in Medway) but its ridiculous that most of the country are basically playing Russian Roulette with their trains.

 

[lordbusiness]

It will be interesting to read an independent report into such a monumental failure to deliver the GTR timetable change which has been in the planning for so long.

I do wonder whether the modern business disease of project management has infected the rail industry. Today, we are led to believe nothing can be done without a huge project management organisation between senior management and subject matter experts.
Indeed we are constantly reminded that we cannot do without such people, their roadmaps or Gantt charts.

We do know that either Senior management at DfT, Network Rail and GTR were fully aware of the impending failure or they were being advised that everything was being correctly managed and deliverables were indeed being delivered, albeit with some
etc....

.

You're pretty much spot on there

 

[OwenB]

Services are literally getting worse by the day. Surely we should be expecting some kind of improvement, albeit gradual. It worries me that there appears to be absolutely zero light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Silver Cobra]

No surprise to see that the 0755 northbound from Arlesey is cancelled yet again. So I've just committed to buying that £6.80 advance from Stevenage to Peterborough for June 18th. I'd rather have a far more certain chance of getting to Peterborough through VTEC than what Thameslink would offer currently.

 

[Class465fan]

I think that there may well be another timetable shake up in December, I think there is a general consensus that people are rightfully p***ed off, this isn't just a regional thing or even a GTR thing (as much as I dislike them and cannot wait to see them make their final call in Medway) but its ridiculous that most of the country are basically playing Russian Roulette with their trains.

This just gets better and better by the minute