Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[hwl]

Did this include the route via London Bridge in addition to the route via Elephant & Castle? Or because of the long period of trains being diverted via Elephant & Castle were there a significant number of drivers who had not been trained in the revised route via London Bridge?

One of the issues with Horsham - Peterborough has been the ex Southern Drivers signing P10-15 at London Bridge but not P4/5 and the route through to Blackfriars.

 

[Failed Unit]

One of the worse days on great northern since it was introduced on the Cambridge- London service (the slow one)

Still don’t get why it suffers so badly. Nothing has changed on the route. Are the 700s the problem?

 

[MikeWM]

Looks like today is one of the worst yet

I note from Twitter that MPs are rather more active today - I see at least one has suffered from a cancelled train themselves today (!) - and there's a statement to the Commons later.

......The Cambridge- London service (the slow one)

Still don’t get why it suffers so badly. Nothing has changed on the route. Are the 700s the problem?

I don't know either - but I did notice yesterday (when things seemed a little better - possibly the best day in two weeks, though that's an incredibly low bar) that there was at least one 387 set running on a stopper - perhaps that's part of the reason yesterday wasn't quite as bad?

On an unrelated note, I recall someone asking many pages ago how many 365s are still stored at Ely. I counted 9 sets when I went past on Saturday.

 

[gingerheid]

Rail magazine's Industry Insider columnist is reporting that just 9 out of 90 Peterborough depot drivers have the route knowledge for the run to Horsham and that Horsham has only two out of a complement of 40 drivers. Notwithstanding the logistical difficulties in acquiring route knowledge to sign the new diagrams, some of which are explained in the article, this seems rather shocking.

Based on the number of services we've been seeing, that seems very plausible!

But if that's the case... how did they think they were ever going to be able to operate the timetable that fateful Sunday morning???

And how quickly can it be fixed?

And why are they running so many less trains that before...?

I really wish they'd talk sense to us so we had an idea of when this misery might end

 

[hwl]

Looks like today is one of the worst yet

I note from Twitter that MPs are rather more active today...

Last week was half term so house not sitting so all bottled up till this week!

 

[JonathanH]

Rail magazine's Industry Insider columnist is reporting that just 9 out of 90 Peterborough depot drivers have the route knowledge for the run to Horsham and that Horsham has only two out of a complement of 40 drivers. Notwithstanding the logistical difficulties in acquiring route knowledge to sign the new diagrams, some of which are explained in the article, this seems rather shocking.

Did the same two drivers at Horsham drive all of the Horsham to Peterborough services during the 12-week preview period after 26 February? Surely the point of those workings was for more of them to learn the route?

When the decision was take to modify the Thameslink routes because of Windmill Bridge Jn capacity issues a big change also occured that wasn't picked up by many people. Prior to the change none of the existing routes were changed in a major way (minor = Bedford - Gatwick instead of Bedford Three Bridges) as all the ECML - TL routes were paired with new to TL services to the South (ex Southern) too (e.g. Cambridge - Tattenham Corner or Welwyn GC - Caterham (peak only) but with those changes they decided to chop some existing TL routes in 2. E.g. Sevenoaks - Bedford is no more with the Sevenoaks portion going to Welwyn GC from next May.

It also doesn't help that the early services via Redhill work Bedford-Gatwick-Peterborough and Horsham-Bedford.

 

[nlogax]

Sir Michael Fallon is right now probably midway through a conversation with Chris Grayling...

"Fallon, MP for Sevenoaks in Kent, told BBC News:

"This is now week three and this is becoming a scandal. My constituents can’t get to work in London. Their children can’t get on trains to school. And we are now into more cancellations even with the emergency timetable. So it really is time now that ministers got a grip on this and forced Thameslink to get on and run a decent service, if necessary borrowing drivers from other companies who know the routes ...

I shall be meeting Chris Grayling at three o’clock and I will be leaving him in absolutely no doubt as to the real, raw anger of my constituents. All of this was supposed to be an improvement. That was supposed to be the point of the new timetable, and it’s turned out to be a disaster ..." "

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eils-counter-terrorism-strategy-politics-live

I'm guessing from today's fallout that Grayling's position is less certain than ever.

 

[gingerheid]

One of the worse days on great northern since it was introduced on the Cambridge- London service (the slow one)

Still don’t get why it suffers so badly. Nothing has changed on the route. Are the 700s the problem?

And as for slow trains from Cambridge North, which never really ran at the best of times...

 

[ungreat]

Rail magazine's Industry Insider columnist is reporting that just 9 out of 90 Peterborough depot drivers have the route knowledge for the run to Horsham and that Horsham has only two out of a complement of 40 drivers. Notwithstanding the logistical difficulties in acquiring route knowledge to sign the new diagrams, some of which are explained in the article, this seems rather shocking.

Yup. Its actually 4 Horsham drivers though...but the rest is correct

 

[jon0844]

I think the 700s have been a life saver as they mean people aren't left behind after some large gaps in service. Of course some are going on buses, in taxis or going home etc.

 

[tsr]

Did this include the route via London Bridge in addition to the route via Elephant & Castle? Or because of the long period of trains being diverted via Elephant & Castle were there a significant number of drivers who had not been trained in the revised route via London Bridge?

The latter is a significant issue.

Rail magazine's Industry Insider columnist is reporting that just 9 out of 90 Peterborough depot drivers have the route knowledge for the run to Horsham and that Horsham has only two out of a complement of 40 drivers. Notwithstanding the logistical difficulties in acquiring route knowledge to sign the new diagrams, some of which are explained in the article, this seems rather shocking.

This is slightly misleading (and the numbers will gradually change for the better anyway). Whilst it would have been ideal for everyone to sign everything they needed by the time of the new timetable implementation, there was still a certain amount of flexibility when it came to pilot drivers and gradually signing further and further north from Horsham, or south from Peterborough. However, that flexibility has clearly been massively overused and I am also hearing that route learning has become drastically out-of-sync. Several drivers have been complaining that they have been learning St Pancras or Finsbury Park to Peterborough without learning London Bridge to St Pancras first. This means their route knowledge is not continuous. Allegedly this is so pilot working is only needed for a small stretch of track in central London, but it does not help with the crucial Core frequencies and moving passengers if their trains are turned round at each end due to pilot unavailability.

In turn, the pilot driver route knowledge apparently does not overlap neatly with the limitations of GN / SN driver competencies, so more than one pilot driver may be needed to cover the whole London Bridge - Finsbury Park section, or they may be needed for less route conducting if the main driver has actually already signed off part of the route.

One of the issues with Horsham - Peterborough has been the ex Southern Drivers signing P10-15 at London Bridge but not P4/5 and the route through to Blackfriars.

One of many issues. Southern drivers are having to learn an awful lot of new stuff. Just signing Platforms 4 & 5 is little use if they then wait there for a pilot, anyway. Ideally the pilots would be more plentiful and available from East Croydon northwards, so any route could be taken to reach the St Pancras/ECML area. This is what was done with preview services pre-TT change.

 

[NorthKent1989]

And what does your opinion on that have to do with Gravesend, exactly?

Because Abbey Wood no longer needs the fasts, since it has both Thameslink and Crossrail and that’s a massive step up.

 

[Class465fan]

You mean a massive step down? Everyday these services are either delayed or cancelled and it has been going on for three weeks. People are beginning to lose their jobs thanks to thameslink poor excuse of a timetable and you think it's a massive "step up"? Another reason why you keep praising this rubbish timetable is the fact that you don't have to deal with thameslink as it doesn't go via the sidcup area, whilst we in abbey wood and medway have to face this poor excuse of a timetable.

 

[Antman]

Because Abbey Wood no longer needs the fasts, since it has both Thameslink and Crossrail and that’s a massive step up.

Are you just trolling or what? I just struggle to understand why else you would post such nonsense.

 

[Hadders]

Tonight’s commute home is the worst since this shambles started.

All associated with this should be hanging their heads in shame.

Looking at the journey planners for tomorrow morning things look even worse!

 

[Mauve]

Sir Michael Fallon is right now probably midway through a conversation with Chris Grayling...

"Fallon, MP for Sevenoaks in Kent, told BBC News:

"This is now week three and this is becoming a scandal. My constituents can’t get to work in London. Their children can’t get on trains to school. And we are now into more cancellations even with the emergency timetable. So it really is time now that ministers got a grip on this and forced Thameslink to get on and run a decent service, if necessary borrowing drivers from other companies who know the routes ...

I shall be meeting Chris Grayling at three o’clock and I will be leaving him in absolutely no doubt as to the real, raw anger of my constituents. All of this was supposed to be an improvement. That was supposed to be the point of the new timetable, and it’s turned out to be a disaster ..." "

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eils-counter-terrorism-strategy-politics-live

I'm guessing from today's fallout that Grayling's position is less certain than ever.

Based on the Guardian live blog it sounds like Grayling is having a tough time of it in the Commons this afternoon.

He's announced an enquiry, to be chaired by Stephen Glaister (ORR Chair), into what went wrong. Is this likely to result in any substantial findings, or just be an effort to distract people from the problems until everyone has forgotten about it?

 

[Northhighland]

Based on the Guardian live blog it sounds like Grayling is having a tough time of it in the Commons this afternoon.

He's announced an enquiry, to be chaired by Stephen Glaister (ORR Chair), into what went wrong. Is this likely to result in any substantial findings, or just be an effort to distract people from the problems until everyone has forgotten about it?

It is designed to kick the can down the road, won’t report until the end of the year. Classic doing something but in reality doing nothing.

Sick of hearing how NR don’t deliver how TOC’s are powerless, yet when NR do deliver we get this disaster and still companies are allowed to walk away Scot free. Ridiculous, has to be huge financial penalties for totally screwing this up.

 

[Failed Unit]

It is designed to kick the can down the road, won’t report until the end of the year. Classic doing something but in reality doing nothing.

Sick of hearing how NR don’t deliver how TOC’s are powerless, yet when NR do deliver we get this disaster and still companies are allowed to walk away Scot free. Ridiculous, has to be huge financial penalties for totally screwing this up.

Agree. GTR are constantly highlighted as not performing in the public interest. Nothing ever gets done. I bet both Horton and Grayling are still both doing the same job this time next year as we are discussing the latest collapse of the timetable as they try to fit more services in the core without training drivers etc.

 

[Silver Cobra]

I honestly didn't think things could get worse on the Peterborough route. Looking through RTT, it seems that after the 1625 departure to Peterborough at Arlesey, there won't be another northbound service until 2025. That's four hours between services, and no peak time services from London at that. Absolutely ridiculous....

 

[Mauve]

It is designed to kick the can down the road, won’t report until the end of the year. Classic doing something but in reality doing nothing.

Sick of hearing how NR don’t deliver how TOC’s are powerless, yet when NR do deliver we get this disaster and still companies are allowed to walk away Scot free. Ridiculous, has to be huge financial penalties for totally screwing this up.

Thanks, that's what I suspected, so no different to most inquiries then. I won't hold my breath to see if there's anything interesting in the final report!

 

[NorthKent1989]

You mean a massive step down? Everyday these services are either delayed or cancelled and it has been going on for three weeks. People are beginning to lose their jobs thanks to thameslink poor excuse of a timetable and you think it's a massive "step up"? Another reason why you keep praising this rubbish timetable is the fact that you don't have to deal with thameslink as it doesn't go via the sidcup area, whilst we in abbey wood and medway have to face this poor excuse of a timetable.

I can bet you if by some miracle the fasts get restored and the Thameslink is re routed to the Sidcup line I’m sure he will be the first to complain about the loss of his fasts

Are you just trolling or what? I just struggle to understand why else you would post such nonsense.

I genuinely think he is serious, some people think we’re over exaggerating things, the fact is is that even people in Greenwich and Deptford are becoming extremely unhappy with Thameslink now that the honeymoon is over basically before it even begun, they’ve been down to just 4tph in some cases, contrary to what @Selkent Fellow believes, Greenwich is by far more important an area than Sidcup or New Eltham and cannot simply have 4tph or this basic service

Because Abbey Wood no longer needs the fasts, since it has both Thameslink and Crossrail and that’s a massive step up.

So does that mean Tottenham Hale no longer needs its own fasts then? I say that because TH has the Victoria Line which is quick into Central London, three stops to Kings Cross I believe? What you have to understand is that the fasts were never really about serving Abbey Wood or Woolwich Arsenal or Lewisham, not in the last three decades at least, when prior to that Woolwich Arsenal was the only Greater London station on this service (occasionally Lewisham and Greenwich) but primarily it was there to give those further out a faster service into London, the stops added later on were for various reasons; Abbey Wood was added because of Thamesmead mainly (and a small part to do with some lobbying from the residents of leafy Nuxley/Upper Belvedere according to my grandfather) you mention lots of homes being built, but Thamesmead was and is an entirely new town not just a housing estate, which happened to lie mostly within Abbey Wood.

Please be a bit more understanding to those who are struggling to get to work and getting about in general (Higham for instance) and also see that this isn’t really working well for a lot of commuters and travelers on the line.

 

[plcd1]

Based on the Guardian live blog it sounds like Grayling is having a tough time of it in the Commons this afternoon.

He's announced an enquiry, to be chaired by Stephen Glaister (ORR Chair), into what went wrong. Is this likely to result in any substantial findings, or just be an effort to distract people from the problems until everyone has forgotten about it?

I'm watching the statement and questions. Grayling's performance is lamentable but entirely predictable. Everyone but him and the DfT are responsible for the mess. The only person who can oversee the fix is him so no point in him resigning. He has also tried to say that Network Rail's non performance gives support to his ideas for merging rail operation and maintenance. He has threatened to "punish" GTR (and Govia) at some point in the future. Also measures being looked at to get some peak South Eastern and East Midlands Trains services to call at selected stations to fill in the gaps caused by GTR's non performance. A compensation scheme (not defined) for both GTR and Northern passengers is also proposed.

Labour MPs have clearly decided to take a "he must resign, he is responsible" line of attack. Grayling naturally disagrees.

It is more telling that Tory MPs are clearly having to hold back from calling him "rude names" so as not to appear disloyal. Crispin Blunt, though, get very close to a dangerous blow by saying "He and the DfT have to accept they are part of the industry alongside everyone else". Clearly rail issues in Redhill (much documented here and elsewhere) are a significant issue for Mr Blunt.

 

[Robert Symonds]

I can bet you if by some miracle the fasts get restored and the Thameslink is re routed to the Sidcup line I’m sure he will be the first to complain about the loss of his fasts



I genuinely think he is serious, some people think we’re over exaggerating things, the fact is is that even people in Greenwich and Deptford are becoming extremely unhappy with Thameslink now that the honeymoon is over basically before it even begun, they’ve been down to just 4tph in some cases, contrary to what @Selkent Fellow believes, Greenwich is by far more important an area than Sidcup or New Eltham and cannot simply have 4tph or this basic service



So does that mean Tottenham Hale no longer needs its own fasts then? I say that because TH has the Victoria Line which is quick into Central London, three stops to Kings Cross I believe? What you have to understand is that the fasts were never really about serving Abbey Wood or Woolwich Arsenal or Lewisham, not in the last three decades at least, when prior to that Woolwich Arsenal was the only Greater London station on this service (occasionally Lewisham and Greenwich) but primarily it was there to give those further out a faster service into London, the stops added later on were for various reasons; Abbey Wood was added because of Thamesmead mainly (and a small part to do with some lobbying from the residents of leafy Nuxley/Upper Belvedere according to my grandfather) you mention lots of homes being built, but Thamesmead was and is an entirely new town not just a housing estate, which happened to lie mostly within Abbey Wood.

Please be a bit more understanding to those who are struggling to get to work and getting about in general (Higham for instance) and also see that this isn’t really working well for a lot of commuters and travelers on the line.

I can't be bothered to reply to him anymore.I have asked him a couple of questions that he has just ignored.I would suggest everyone just ignores him

 

[Skimble19]

I honestly didn't think things could get worse on the Peterborough route. Looking through RTT, it seems that after the 1625 departure to Peterborough at Arlesey, there won't be another northbound service until 2025. That's four hours between services, and no peak time services from London at that. Absolutely ridiculous....

I'm sure you've already noticed but just in case: Great Northern services from Kings Cross will stop additionally at Arlesey to ensure the station still gets a service this evening.

 

[Mauve]

I honestly didn't think things could get worse on the Peterborough route. Looking through RTT, it seems that after the 1625 departure to Peterborough at Arlesey, there won't be another northbound service until 2025. That's four hours between services, and no peak time services from London at that. Absolutely ridiculous....

It does seem that Arlesey and Sandy have really got the short end of the stick on the Peterborough line compared to Biggleswade, St Neots and Huntingdon. Gaps of 2 hours seem to be routine all along the line, particularly if you want to travel off peak, but a 4 hour gap in service right in the middle of the evening peak is appalling. As if a refund of the ticket cost is going to make up for that inconvenience.

Do you know if RTT is accurate for some of these short term amendments? NRE is showing that the 1836 from KGX is also stopping at Arlesey and Sandy, though of course they might also be removed at some point on the way too.

 

[the Rat]

Any inquiry would do well to start by reading this thread and the very many considered, well-explained and illuminating posts on the reality of this monumental screw-up, not to mention all the positive suggestions on how to improve things.

 

[Skimble19]

It does seem that Arlesey and Sandy have really got the short end of the stick on the Peterborough line compared to Biggleswade, St Neots and Huntingdon. Gaps of 2 hours seem to be routine all along the line, particularly if you want to travel off peak, but a 4 hour gap in service right in the middle of the evening peak is appalling. As if a refund of the ticket cost is going to make up for that inconvenience.

Do you know if RTT is accurate for some of these short term amendments? NRE is showing that the 1836 from KGX is also stopping at Arlesey and Sandy, though of course they might also be removed at some point on the way too.

Yes that's correct, the below GN services will all stop additionally:

1P46 16:36 London Kings Cross to Peterborough
1P48 17:06 London Kings Cross to Peterborough
1P50 17:36 London Kings Cross to Peterborough
1P52 18:06 London Kings Cross to Peterborough
1P54 18:36 London Kings Cross to Peterborough
1P60 20:06 London Kings Cross to Peterborough
1P64 21:06 London Kings Cross to Peterborough

 

[Silver Cobra]

I'm sure you've already noticed but just in case: Great Northern services from Kings Cross will stop additionally at Arlesey to ensure the station still gets a service this evening.

It does seem that Arlesey and Sandy have really got the short end of the stick on the Peterborough line compared to Biggleswade, St Neots and Huntingdon. Gaps of 2 hours seem to be routine all along the line, particularly if you want to travel off peak, but a 4 hour gap in service right in the middle of the evening peak is appalling. As if a refund of the ticket cost is going to make up for that inconvenience.

Do you know if RTT is accurate for some of these short term amendments? NRE is showing that the 1836 from KGX is also stopping at Arlesey and Sandy, though of course they might also be removed at some point on the way too.

RTT doesn't currently list the additional stops on those services, so I was unaware that was happening (it also shows the 1806 as cancelled).

 

[Daz28]

It’s getting to the point where we would be better off if Thameslink just cancelled all services on the next few Fridays and dedicated the day to their drivers doing route learning. A bit like the teacher training days in schools.

Massively inconvenient, but at least people could plan around it.

 

[the Rat]

It’s getting to the point where we would be better off if Thameslink just cancelled all services on the next few Fridays and dedicated the day to their drivers doing route learning. A bit like the teacher training days in schools.

Massively inconvenient, but at least people could plan around it.

Agree, but that suggestion also smacks of common sense and we've all seen just how much that's in short supply when it comes to GTR/ TL and planning.