Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[tramps01]

Getting back onto the introduction of the 700's, seems to have gone quiet on deliveries the last fortnight. Surely not holding back to fit tables.
Are we not due for an additional unit or two into the weekday workings.

 

[AM9]

Surely not holding back to fit tables.

That's part of the mid-life refit.

 

[grid56126]

Getting back onto the introduction of the 700's, seems to have gone quiet on deliveries the last fortnight. Surely not holding back to fit tables.
Are we not due for an additional unit or two into the weekday workings.

The brake runner wagons involved have not had a particularly fast return to the Fatherland. At least one of the containers was found to be a little out of guage before the empties were sent back. The set is now in the Down yard at Three Bridges awaiting movement of the offending container (s?) by road.

I have no idea if there is a spare set of wagons available. If there is a spare set my reason is not valid. . .

 

[Islineclear3_1]

700003, 700014 & 700102, 700108, 700113 spied out today

 

[Western15]

Deliveries will restart next week, with a delivery on 26/10.
Different set of barrier/brake force wagons has been sourced.

 

[Class377/5]

The brake runner wagons involved have not had a particularly fast return to the Fatherland. At least one of the containers was found to be a little out of guage before the empties were sent back. The set is now in the Down yard at Three Bridges awaiting movement of the offending container (s?) by road.

I have no idea if there is a spare set of wagons available. If there is a spare set my reason is not valid. . .

Bit more serious than that.

However next Monday will see three more diagrams (1x 8 car ad 2x 12 cars) being introduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

deliveries will restart next week, with a delivery on 26/10.
Different set of barrier/brake force wagons has been sourced.

700027?

 

[Class 466]

Bit more serious than that.

However next Monday will see three more diagrams (1x 8 car ad 2x 12 cars) being introduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


700027?

What will these diagrams be replacing? Electrostars I assume

 

[transmanche]

I can tell you from experience, Finsbury Park struggled to cope with the number of passengers disembarking from East Coast services (either last Christmas or the year before, I can't remember) when engineering works between it and Kings Cross overran..

There is, however, a world of difference between post-Christmas occasional travellers laden with luggage and regular commuters. It's surprising how many passengers Finsbury Park can absorb (just look at it after any Arsenal home match) and works are currently underway to increase passenger capacity.

 

[asylumxl]

There is, however, a world of difference between post-Christmas occasional travellers laden with luggage and regular commuters. It's surprising how many passengers Finsbury Park can absorb (just look at it after any Arsenal home match) and works are currently underway to increase passenger capacity.

While I appreciate it can absorb a lot of passengers, I'm still sceptical. The placement of the barriers and the stairs are a real physical restriction.

I'd say, from experience, commuters are far more impatient than "occasional travelers". I reckon a few 700s arriving and departing close to each other will cause issues, with those wishing to board barging through those alighting.

 

[Class377/5]

I find it weird people think Finsbury Park cannot cope with two trains an hour terminating there. Comparing it to everything terminating is really crap attempt to force a untrue point.

What will these diagrams be replacing? Electrostars I assume

Yes. 6x 387 and 2x 377.

 

[transmanche]

While I appreciate it can absorb a lot of passengers, I'm still sceptical. The placement of the barriers and the stairs are a real physical restriction.

In times of severe disruption, you can bet that the barriers will be open. And there are now four spiral staircases available to link the NR platforms with the tube platforms, instead of the previous two.

I'd say, from experience, commuters are far more impatient than "occasional travelers". I reckon a few 700s arriving and departing close to each other will cause issues, with those wishing to board barging through those alighting.

I never suggested it would be 'sweetness and light'. However, it's not about how 'patient' the passengers may be, but about how easy it is to move them between the NR and tube platforms in times of disruption - and it's far easier to do that with regular commuters then occasional travellers laden with luggage and Christmas presents!

 

[asylumxl]

In times of severe disruption, you can bet that the barriers will be open. And there are now four spiral staircases available to link the NR platforms with the tube platforms, instead of the previous two.

I never suggested it would be 'sweetness and light'. However, it's not about how 'patient' the passengers may be, but about how easy it is to move them between the NR and tube platforms in times of disruption - and it's far easier to do that with regular commuters then occasional travellers laden with luggage and Christmas presents!

Well, even if the barriers are open it'll still be more restrictive than the previous arrangement without barriers.

And if you think commuters are easy to direct around a station... Well...

 

[transmanche]

Well, even if the barriers are open it'll still be more restrictive than the previous arrangement without barriers.

Have you seen the barrier arrangements on the NR platforms at Finsbury Park? There are gates which can be opened, meaning passengers can bypass the barriers altogether.

You can see the gates open (as well as the ticket barriers themselves) in this picture.

And if you think commuters are easy to direct around a station... Well...

Because finding the tube platforms at Finsbury Park is so difficult... :roll:

 

[jon0844]

Have you seen the barrier arrangements on the NR platforms at Finsbury Park? There are gates which can be opened, meaning passengers can bypass the barriers altogether.

You can see the gates open (as well as the ticket barriers themselves) in this picture.

the photo above doesn't show just how big the side 'emergency' gates are, so the actual limitation is the stairs - and they're quite wide.

In the future, there will be lifts I believe, and I would agree that regular users are quite likely familiar with the station and can get around quite easily. Impatience doesn't come into it, as people at least know where they're going (likewise football fans).

If an Intercity train has to terminate there and people with luggage all alight then it's a different story, as many won't have ever been to the station before.

 

[physics34]

I find it weird people think Finsbury Park cannot cope with two trains an hour terminating there. Comparing it to everything terminating is really crap attempt to force a untrue point.



Yes. 6x 387 and 2x 377.

Are they the last 6x TL 387s?

 

[Class377/5]

Are they the last 6x TL 387s?

Not by a long shot. After this there will still be 14x 387 left. It's the half way point for the 387/1 cascade and the start of the 377 cascade.

 

[physics34]

Not by a long shot. After this there will still be 14x 387 left. It's the half way point for the 387/1 cascade and the start of the 377 cascade.

Oh ha ha..its just that i havent seen many 387/1s lately.

 

[SAPhil]

Travelling home in last night's rush hour on a train that was full and standing, the passenger information system was informing us that there were plenty of seats available in every carriage! If it can't get that right then it isn't worth having - apart from the amusement value

 

[AM9]

Travelling home in last night's rush hour on a train that was full and standing, the passenger information system was informing us that there were plenty of seats available in every carriage! If it can't get that right then it isn't worth having - apart from the amusement value

As the data is generated from load (weight) sensing on each car, maybe you were on a train of very light people.

 

[aleggatta]

As the data is generated from load (weight) sensing on each car, maybe you were on a train of very light people.

Or it might show a proportional overview, so that they don't have people complaining of overcrowding and using the companies own pax loading system against them...

 

[AM9]

Apart from remaining software issues with the PIS, it looks like most of the initial problems have either been solved, or maybe weren't actually issues with the delivered stock and just consequences of driver training, poor systems engineering and the ever present 'let's blame the new trains' by uninformed commentators.

 

[asylumxl]

Apart from remaining software issues with the PIS, it looks like most of the initial problems have either been solved, or maybe weren't actually issues with the delivered stock and just consequences of driver training, poor systems engineering and the ever present 'let's blame the new trains' by uninformed commentators.

And your evidence for such claims?

If you're going to call other people's posts uninformed, then you'd do well to back up your own with proof.

 

[AM9]

And your evidence for such claims?

If you're going to call other people's posts uninformed, then you'd do well to back up your own with proof.

I didn't mention 'posts', - there are complaints outside the RailUK world.

 

[asylumxl]

I didn't mention 'posts', - there are complaints outside the RailUK world.

It doesn't really matter either way. Without any statistics, either side is just speculating.

It may well be that there never were many issues or it could be that the "commentators" are no longer talking about them. We can't really say without evidence.

 

[SAPhil]

Does the 8 carriage variant also have first class at front and rear - and if so, is the rear section declassified like the 12 car version?

 

[jon0844]

I didn't mention 'posts', - there are complaints outside the RailUK world.

Most of the issues mentioned here, PIS aside, seem to have been related to door opening issues.

Drivers being 'at fault' doesn't mean they did anything wrong, as that's the point of training. Knowing where to stop, knowing how to override problems, signs being in the right place etc etc.

That's the point of the slow introduction isn't it? To find real world issues that can't be found anywhere else.

I don't think anyone needs to take offence, and I read things to mean that generally speaking the trains are proving reliable - so aren't just breaking down with unknown faults and having to be dragged back home for repairs and modifications.

So far have any trains been sent back to Germany for work to be done, as seems to have happened a few times with stock built/assembled nearer Derby?

 

[AM9]

Most of the issues mentioned here, PIS aside, seem to have been related to door opening issues.

Drivers being 'at fault' doesn't mean they did anything wrong, as that's the point of training. Knowing where to stop, knowing how to override problems, signs being in the right place etc etc.

That's the point of the slow introduction isn't it? To find real world issues that can't be found anywhere else.

I don't think anyone needs to take offence, and I read things to mean that generally speaking the trains are proving reliable - so aren't just breaking down with unknown faults and having to be dragged back home for repairs and modifications.

So far have any trains been sent back to Germany for work to be done, as seems to have happened a few times with stock built/assembled nearer Derby?

Thanks jonmorris0844, you have understood my post correctly. I think that the trains are beset by small problems of a systems nature but don't seem to have any significant hardware design or production failings. Their ride, speed and braking performance seems well suited to their intended use and mechanical systems that the public do understandably get upset about, e.g. doors, heating/cooling and noise don't seem to have any weaknesses. The issue of seats/power outlets/tables have been debated at length here but are presumably compliant with the customer's (as in DfT) requirement so are not an issue in a Construction and Testing Progress - Now Entering Service discussion. No doubt their wi-fi will be commented on when it arrives.
As I've previously posted, I presume that actual train failure in-service data are commercially sensitive between the TOC, the customer and the supplier so we are unlikely to see those data any time soon, but I would guess that service failures where the cause is wholly down to a class 700 train is very low, (maybe even zero) when the software systems integration with the infrstructure and external sources is still so immature.
AFAIK, no buttons have fallen off yet and the toilets still seem to be functioning as intended. Soon we'll see if tracks strewn with the wrong type of leaves bothers these trains. As we go into winter, adverse conditions may test the robustness of the design and the effectiveness of the extensive environmental stress testing undertaken before design approval.
Meanwhile, the Herts Advertiser and others will periodically jump on a moaning commuter bandwagon with reports that completely miss the issues. You'd think that they would prefer the 319s to stay forever, or bring back the 317s, - even the 127s!

 

[hwl]

It doesn't really matter either way. Without any statistics, either side is just speculating.

It may well be that there never were many issues or it could be that the "commentators" are no longer talking about them. We can't really say without evidence.

With over 60 units manufactured, 31 delivered (32nd on the way) and only 10? weekday diagrams currently this suggests lots of issues getting rectified behind the scenes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's the point of the slow introduction isn't it? To find real world issues that can't be found anywhere else.

I don't think anyone needs to take offence, and I read things to mean that generally speaking the trains are proving reliable - so aren't just breaking down with unknown faults and having to be dragged back home for repairs and modifications.

So far have any trains been sent back to Germany for work to be done, as seems to have happened a few times with stock built/assembled nearer Derby?

The introduction is far slower than planned, the number of diagrams has increased far more slower than planned. (currently less than the revised (reduced) number for mid -August? with only delays rather than any speeding up)

Far easier and cheaper for Bombardier to return units to Derby than Siemens to Germany so more incentive to fix here as they also run the maintenance operations. I think Bombardier are also doing some rectification work at Bletchley.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Far better for a slow introduction, getting drivers trained and used to the stock and getting things right rather than wholesale introduction and catostropic problems when s**t hits the fan due to "failures" in the core.

And of course, units have to accumulate so many miles of fault free running before they are passed for traffic

 

[Brian Aylott]

With over 60 units manufactured, 31 delivered (32nd on the way) and only 10? weekday diagrams currently this suggests lots of issues getting rectified behind the scenes]

I suppose it could suggest that to you - it could suggest to others that there is one issue - it could suggest to others that driver training is taking longer than planned for - it could suggest something else - it could suggest nothing
Brian