Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[physics34]

Southern put a round handrail attached to its existing handrails on its 455s to create extra grab places!!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Why clutter up the floors making them more difficult to keep clean? Also, the space beneath seats is for (permitted) large items of luggage.

The LO class 378s seem to cope well enough with a similar amount of hand holds and journeys on them are a lot more erratic in speed and smoothness.

You're probably not going to get too large an item of luggage below them seats, you'd probably get something larger in the overhead racks. Does the roof space literally have electronics for various bits all the way along or just certain areas of the roof space

 

[AM9]

You're probably not going to get too large an item of luggage below them seats, you'd probably get something larger in the overhead racks. Does the roof space literally have electronics for various bits all the way along or just certain areas of the roof space

I have no absolute knowledge of the equipment layout but given that the AC kit is encapsulated within the roofspace, splitting that up would be messy and probably take up more space overall. The fact is that the roofspace is easy for kit removal and replacement, even quite large items could be done without stripping down whole systems into component parts.
The seat-back hand grips are designed for two separate persons to hold on to with ease. Taller passengers can hold onto/rest on the front of the overhead luggage racks, (maybe a close in rail could be fitted provided it didn't deter passengers from using the racks for their intended purpose.
The layout of the trains allows for the standing area to be absolutely filled with standing passengers, such as would be found when the service is severely disrupted. I don't believe that even the busiest trains (1W96 maybe) have had such a load yet but time will tell.

p.s. putting kit under the seats would reduce room for feet, particularly with airline seating.

 

[Class377/5]

You're probably not going to get too large an item of luggage below them seats, you'd probably get something larger in the overhead racks. Does the roof space literally have electronics for various bits all the way along or just certain areas of the roof space

short answer yes, bar the connection from pan to motors IIRC. You'd be surprised just how stuff is up there. I know I was.

Currently sat on 377210 and noticing even less grabbing points than the 700s do with just 5 nubs between doors and coach end and only bars to hold around the doors so the 700s are a huge increase in grabbing points with each seat row providing at least two points. In this case the 700s increase in a much bigger % compared to the passenger capacity increase. My example alone going from 5 grab nubs to 16 full hand grips. That's a massive increase when you actually look at it.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I forgot that SE drivers would have to sign the 700s as well. I wasn't sure if that agreement was still in place. It does explain the Sevenoaks thing, so good to know!

 

[SAPhil]

Currently sat on 377210 and noticing even less grabbing points than the 700s do with just 5 nubs between doors and coach end and only bars to hold around the doors so the 700s are a huge increase in grabbing points with each seat row providing at least two points. In this case the 700s increase in a much bigger % compared to the passenger capacity increase. My example alone going from 5 grab nubs to 16 full hand grips. That's a massive increase when you actually look at it.

It depends on which 700 carriage you are in! If you have the misfortune to enter one of the wheelchair accessible ones then there are large areas with nowhere to grab. Obviously you can't stick extra poles in but some kind of overhead grabs would be very useful here.

 

[physics34]

short answer yes, bar the connection from pan to motors IIRC. You'd be surprised just how stuff is up there. I know I was.

Currently sat on 377210 and noticing even less grabbing points than the 700s do with just 5 nubs between doors and coach end and only bars to hold around the doors so the 700s are a huge increase in grabbing points with each seat row providing at least two points. In this case the 700s increase in a much bigger % compared to the passenger capacity increase. My example alone going from 5 grab nubs to 16 full hand grips. That's a massive increase when you actually look at it.

not around the doors themselves though.

 

[hwl]

short answer yes, bar the connection from pan to motors IIRC. You'd be surprised just how stuff is up there. I know I was.

Currently sat on 377210 and noticing even less grabbing points than the 700s do with just 5 nubs between doors and coach end and only bars to hold around the doors so the 700s are a huge increase in grabbing points with each seat row providing at least two points. In this case the 700s increase in a much bigger % compared to the passenger capacity increase. My example alone going from 5 grab nubs to 16 full hand grips. That's a massive increase when you actually look at it.

How are the 700s grab rails an improvement over the more modern 377/6 &/7s?

 

[J-2739]

As I've said before, you cannot have handrails in the ceiling as the whole thing opens out to access the electronics. People holding on would cause the ceiling to come down. The alternative would be to remove seats and put the equipment there reducing capacity.

Still, some commuter/metro trains (E231, R160) has managed to achieve grab rails on the ceiling.

 

[Bishopstone]

Standing people better get good with their balancing then....! There must be another way

Valid point. I have no problem with standing per se, but suffer from poor balance and like to have hold of something solid. The 700s are better than the 377s in this regard, but the absence of ceiling-hung grab rails is regrettable.

I know the theory is that two or three people can use each seat-mounted grab - as opposed to one each on the 377s - but I'm not sure commuters will arrange their bodies in such a considerate way as to allow others access. Even if they do, the number of standees will still exceed the availability of grabs, quite often.

Has the Crossrail stock managed to incorporate ceiling-hung grab rails which don't pull the roof down?

 

[AM9]

... Has the Crossrail stock managed to incorporate ceiling-hung grab rails which don't pull the roof down?

It's not just about not pulling the roof down, the problem with any stock is access to roof-mounted equipment. If the ceiling has to come down in 20 different panels just to get to the AC etc., there is a severe maintenance hit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

not around the doors themselves though.

Which is sensible as it is the last place that people should congregate on busy trains. But having just checked, both the 377/387s and the 700s have four vertical handrails in the door area, one each side of each door close to the wall and one at the limit of the setback/luggage rack plus of course the centre vertical pole. There would be no point in closing the door width down having created a clear space to reduce door blocking, - a major problem that adds to dwell times.
See here and compare with your pictures of the 700s:

and here

 

[Bishopstone]

It's not just about not pulling the roof down, the problem with any stock is access to roof-mounted equipment. If the ceiling has to come down in 20 different panels just to get to the AC etc., there is a severe maintenance hit.

Noted, but - to answer my own question - it looks as though the 345s have ceiling-mounted grabs through much of the carriage length, and they're air conditioned....

 

[AM9]

Noted, but - to answer my own question - it looks as though the 345s have ceiling-mounted grabs through much of the carriage length, and they're air conditioned....

So Bombardier may have taken a different view of maintenance but time will tell. Electrostars are notorious for their rattling plastic panels whereas the Desiro Cities don't seem to have the same problems.

 

[hwl]

I know the theory is that two or three people can use each seat-mounted grab - as opposed to one each on the 377s - but I'm not sure commuters will arrange their bodies in such a considerate way as to allow others access. Even if they do, the number of standees will still exceed the availability of grabs, quite often.

Not all 377s are the same though - the /6s &/7s have the same type of grab handles on the seats as well as other grab rail improvements over the older 377s. The users of the /6s &/7s generally appear to have to used to arranging themselves in mutually beneficial ways.

 

[Domh245]

Standing people better get good with their balancing then....! There must be another way

Pack in so many commuters that you are wedged upright?

Drivers are getting used to the units now and incidents of delay due to stopping outside the mark are dropping rapidly

Good to hear, but I thought that in a few cases it was that the stop markers had been put in the wrong place? Either way, I expect that there will still be a few incidents as drivers learn where the train wants to be on the new routes, although probably less than we've seen recently as they have a better idea of where they need to stop.

 

[physics34]

Pack in so many commuters that you are wedged upright?

ha ha ha ha

 

[AM9]

Not all 377s are the same though - the /6s &/7s have the same type of grab handles on the seats as well as other grab rail improvements over the older 377s. The users of the /6s &/7s generally appear to have to used to arranging themselves in mutually beneficial ways.

The seats fitted to the latest designs of Electrostar (377/6, 377/7, 387) have similar twin loop handles to the Desiro Cities rather than the inadequate 'knobs' on the 377/1-5s (no, not the passengers ). Compare the doorways though, the Electrostars have four vertical handrails, located either side of the entrance to the seating area. There is also a high bar across the doorways, only used by taller people who are blocking the doors. The 700s have four vertical handrails located one on each side of the doors plus another four vertical handrails located at the end of the setback area, plus the central vertical pole. So that's nine vertical poles all designed to give standing passengers a safe handhold yet keep the doors as clear as possible.

 

[physics34]

The seats fitted to the latest designs of Electrostar (377/6, 377/7, 387) have similar twin loop handles to the Desiro Cities rather than the inadequate 'knobs' on the 377/1-5s (no, not the passengers ). Compare the doorways though, the Electrostars have four vertical handrails, located either side of the entrance to the seating area. There is also a high bar across the doorways, only used by taller people who are blocking the doors. The 700s have four vertical handrails located one on each side of the doors plus another four vertical handrails located at the end of the setback area, plus the central vertical pole. So that's nine vertical poles all designed to give standing passengers a safe handhold yet keep the doors as clear as possible.

i feel they need the high horizontal bars aswell.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yep. Quite a few standees with not much to hold on too.

I hardly ever hold on to anything when I'm standing on a train - and I don't even have a good sense of balance ( I'm cloth eared and one ear has been drained as I have an implant ).

It's not that difficult to stay upright on a train without holding on to anything. Even on the Underground.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

short answer yes, bar the connection from pan to motors IIRC. You'd be surprised just how stuff is up there. I know I was.

Would a good chunk of the electronics now in the roof space on the 700s have been located in cabinets at the ends of the coaches on "classic" units?

 

[Class377/5]

It depends on which 700 carriage you are in! If you have the misfortune to enter one of the wheelchair accessible ones then there are large areas with nowhere to grab. Obviously you can't stick extra poles in but some kind of overhead grabs would be very useful here.

That was a design choice as disable groups asked for it.

not around the doors themselves though.

That's why you have more poles to hold onto so your points moot.

How are the 700s grab rails an improvement over the more modern 377/6 &/7s?

Haven't been on a five car in awhile but think they are more like the 700s with nubs at every seat bay so a single hand compared to the two handed handles on the 700s.

Still, some commuter/metro trains (E231, R160) has managed to achieve grab rails on the ceiling.

Different gauges and solutions to pressures means different solutions will be done.

Good to hear, but I thought that in a few cases it was that the stop markers had been put in the wrong place? Either way, I expect that there will still be a few incidents as drivers learn where the train wants to be on the new routes, although probably less than we've seen recently as they have a better idea of where they need to stop.

From what I've seen, drivers are adapting quickly. It's ones not used to the stock still learning.

Would a good chunk of the electronics now in the roof space on the 700s have been located in cabinets at the ends of the coaches on "classic" units?

Yes.

 

[Bishopstone]

It's not that difficult to stay upright on a train without holding on to anything. Even on the Underground.

The Electrostars are particularly 'lively' northbound on the fast at Earlswood, and southbound through Stoats Nest Junction. The 700s might be better: I've only sampled them south of Gatwick.

It's also a matter of driving style. Some drivers favour a sharp initial braking action that catches standees off guard, then ease off before another sharp application, whereas others are more progressive.

To not hold onto anything* is rather to discount the possibility of emergency braking being required.

*Or, alternatively, to prop yourself against a suitable vertical.

 

[physics34]

The Electrostars are particularly 'lively' northbound on the fast at Earlswood, and southbound through Stoats Nest Junction. The 700s might be better: I've only sampled them south of Gatwick.

It's also a matter of driving style. Some drivers favour a sharp initial braking action that catches standees off guard, then ease off before another sharp application, whereas others are more progressive.

To not hold onto anything* is rather to discount the possibility of emergency braking being required.

*Or, alternatively, to prop yourself against a suitable vertical.

...and during the current leaffall season, electrostar drivers are required to make harsher brake applications to get the sander going.

 

[jon0844]

The Electrostars are particularly 'lively' northbound on the fast at Earlswood, and southbound through Stoats Nest Junction. The 700s might be better: I've only sampled them south of Gatwick.

It's also a matter of driving style. Some drivers favour a sharp initial braking action that catches standees off guard, then ease off before another sharp application, whereas others are more progressive.

To not hold onto anything* is rather to discount the possibility of emergency braking being required.

*Or, alternatively, to prop yourself against a suitable vertical.

The 387s also seen very lively on the ECML too. Probably best to hold on to something.

 

[physics34]

enough vertical poles maybe bout no horizontal ones close to the door area. How about the springy things that you used to see on the underground.

 

[Bald Rick]

I hardly ever hold on to anything when I'm standing on a train - and I don't even have a good sense of balance ( I'm cloth eared and one ear has been drained as I have an implant ).

It's not that difficult to stay upright on a train without holding on to anything. Even on the Underground.

I challenge you to stand at the rear of an 8 or 12 car 387 heading north from St Pancras, with the driver on the back end of his shift with his new girlfriend waiting for him at home.

Just before Scratchwood services you will be on the floor.

 

[Bantamzen]

I challenge you to stand at the rear of an 8 or 12 car 387 heading north from St Pancras, with the driver on the back end of his shift with his new girlfriend waiting for him at home.

Just before Scratchwood services you will be on the floor.

Or a Pacer, anywhere, anytime......

 

[AM9]

Or a Pacer, anywhere, anytime......

Well, there won't be any pacers running in the Thamelink routes so how is that relevant to this thread?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I challenge you to stand at the rear of an 8 or 12 car 387 heading north from St Pancras, with the driver on the back end of his shift with his new girlfriend waiting for him at home.

Just before Scratchwood services you will be on the floor.

Pay for the ticket for me and I'll try it...

*throws gauntlet down*

Or a Pacer, anywhere, anytime......

I've done the standing up thing on Pacers...

 

[Goldfish62]

As I've said before, you cannot have handrails in the ceiling as the whole thing opens out to access the electronics. People holding on would cause the ceiling to come down. The alternative would be to remove seats and put the equipment there reducing capacity.

Why would they have to be in the ceiling? The edges of the luggage rack as on other trains would suffice, unless you are expecting exceptionally tall people.