Apologies if this has already been asked but why did they decide to declssify a first class section or is it simply that a standard class section has been classified as first class?
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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress
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I am not sure why, or even that it will stay on all services (or any).
With such a long train, I'd say that on a 12-car version, why not have first at either end? It's certainly a long walk from one end to another.
When I went to Brighton from London Bridge last time, the country end wasn't declassified as it was before. I didn't walk back to the London end to see, so as far as I know it may have been first class at both ends.
Coming back to St Pancras, the screens were off. This does of course mean that if they continue to have problems with them, there won't be any way to declassify them. Obviously the old-fashioned way could work - namely removing signs from one end so it's permanently declassified.
One problem at the moment is that you won't know until the train has started in service if it is declassified or not even if the screens do work!
With such a long train, I'd say that on a 12-car version, why not have first at either end? It's certainly a long walk from one end to another.
When I went to Brighton from London Bridge last time, the country end wasn't declassified as it was before. I didn't walk back to the London end to see, so as far as I know it may have been first class at both ends.
Coming back to St Pancras, the screens were off. This does of course mean that if they continue to have problems with them, there won't be any way to declassify them. Obviously the old-fashioned way could work - namely removing signs from one end so it's permanently declassified.
One problem at the moment is that you won't know until the train has started in service if it is declassified or not even if the screens do work!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Just tried one. Legroom as expected poor, but other than that it feels very spacious with excellent views from the huge windows from all seats. PIS not annoying, though surprised the small font on the TfL update complies with regs. Quite impressed, and I bet the IC "Desiro Verve" will also be good if anyone orders those.
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Oh, forgot... overhead luggage racks huge, easily the largest I have ever seen in the UK.
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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, forgot... overhead luggage racks huge, easily the largest I have ever seen in the UK.
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I assume the TfL info screen doesn't need to comply with anything, as it isn't something that has to be provided. I can't recall how often it is updated, and it always seems odd being shown when you're leaving London.
But we have seen on here that the screens are capable of more, so it may just be during testing that things are set up like this.
One thing I noticed is that on a trip, one screen went blank. Well, the long screen. It was off for a minute or so, and then came back on. It then proceeded to flash through every screen that should have been displayed until it got back 'in sync' with the left-hand one.
All the other screens I could see from my seat were just fine.
But we have seen on here that the screens are capable of more, so it may just be during testing that things are set up like this.
One thing I noticed is that on a trip, one screen went blank. Well, the long screen. It was off for a minute or so, and then came back on. It then proceeded to flash through every screen that should have been displayed until it got back 'in sync' with the left-hand one.
All the other screens I could see from my seat were just fine.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Units out today: 700114, 700104, 700108 and 700112 in service.
700003 (I assume) on driver training.
Had a ride on 700104 between ECR and STP outside of the peak. Sat in both Standard and First. Although the seats in First were thicker and slightly more comfortable, the seats in Standard were not uncomfortable. Again, I could sit by the window with my arm resting on the sill and not being tall, my knees did not touch a tall(er) gentleman sitting opposite.
PIS and aircon worked well, the ride through South London smooth and reasonably uneventful. Driver probably stressing at STP as the doors wouldn't release for a couple of minutes but this wasn't a problem for me.
Roll on Saturday working when I can sample a decent run on the MML without having to clockwatch for getting to work.
700003 (I assume) on driver training.
Had a ride on 700104 between ECR and STP outside of the peak. Sat in both Standard and First. Although the seats in First were thicker and slightly more comfortable, the seats in Standard were not uncomfortable. Again, I could sit by the window with my arm resting on the sill and not being tall, my knees did not touch a tall(er) gentleman sitting opposite.
PIS and aircon worked well, the ride through South London smooth and reasonably uneventful. Driver probably stressing at STP as the doors wouldn't release for a couple of minutes but this wasn't a problem for me.
Roll on Saturday working when I can sample a decent run on the MML without having to clockwatch for getting to work.
Bishopstone
Established Member
Because if First Class was enforced at both ends, the ratio of First to Standard seating would shift towards the former, versus the outgoing 319, 377 and 387 stock. With lots of standing in Standard during the peaks, this is not regarded as being politically acceptable.
Obviously the situation is more pronounced on the 8-car units, which have just as many 'first class' seats as the 12-cars. I'm surprised the 8s were ordered with First at both ends, as I doubt they'll ever run with two live First Class compartments, and they could have fitted in a few more Standard seats.
Why didn't they just have one first class section full stop or was it a case of they had agreed two so couldn't change it without further costs.
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Wouldn't that have:
a) created two types of driving car
and
b) immediately been defeated the first time the train went round the loop.
and
b) immediately been defeated the first time the train went round the loop.
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Class377/5
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Originally there was going to be 3 versions of the 700s.
12 cars with first class
8 cars with first class
8 cars without first class
The latter was dropped due it requiring more units to be built plus events like disprution meant to was far easier to get stock right at the end of the day so it went down to two variants.
12 cars with first class
8 cars with first class
8 cars without first class
The latter was dropped due it requiring more units to be built plus events like disprution meant to was far easier to get stock right at the end of the day so it went down to two variants.
I doubt it - London Bridge (Sussex side) and environs has been performing very well for the best part of a year now!
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Like the current split of London terminii for services from Bedford, Cambridge, Luton, Welwyn, Hatfield and just about every station on the Southern and Southeastern Networks? How do people cope?
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Chatting to SAC passengers about why they would rather stand to save ten minutes or so than take a slower train and get a seat is very enlightening
.
Hey, time is money. Or in my case, 10 minutes more in bed.
Also an hour a day standing up is another 50 calories I don't have to walk off
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westcoaster
Established Member
There is an extra digit to add to pis codes to either declassify the rear first class, or declassify both sections.
Dhassell
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Would anyone be able to remind me where I can find the Diagrams these units now work in this Thread?
Islineclear3_1
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You've kinda given yourself a clue, you'll find the answer further up in this thread...perhaps a few pages up
There are currently 5 diagrams + the London Bridge - Brighton one
Fincra5
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Amuses me slightly.. the SWT 707's are also Lighter Trains but can handle at Seat Powerpoints and Wifi on trains that will arguably be running a short distance!
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
I meant to ask if there are any 700 drivers on here, how they find the large unobtrusive cab windscreen and central driving position in comparison to a 377/387. This must be a great bonus
Class377/5
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You've kinda given yourself a clue, you'll find the answer further up in this thread...perhaps a few pages up
There are currently 5 diagrams + the London Bridge - Brighton one
Er its just five diagrams.
As its been awhile, here are this weeks diagrams...
TB501 SX
5Y91 02+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
2W91 02.40 Bedford to Brighton
1B00 05.47 Brighton to London Bridge
1B05 07.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B10 08.27 Brighton to London Bridge
1B15 09.42 London Bridge to Brighton
1B22 11.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B25 12.12 London Bridge to Brighton
5B25 13+29 Brighton to Down Yard
5B38 14+42 Down Yard to Brighton
1B38 15.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B41 16.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B48 17.32 Brighton to London Bridge
1B51 18.42 London Bridge to Brighton
5W51 20+06 Brighton to Three Bridges Depot
TB502
5W93 05+10 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W94 05.20 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W13 07.34 Bedford to Brighton
1W24 10.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W41 13.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W92 15+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W92 15+56 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
1W92 15.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W61 18.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W66 20.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y68 23+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings
TB503
5Y11 06+32 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W11 06.58 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W22 09.11 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W29 11.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W40 14.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W57 17.20 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W62 19.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y62 22+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings
TB504
5W02 05+07 Brighton Down Yard to Brighton
1W02 05.30 Brighton to Bedford
2W21 08.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W30 10+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W30 10+56 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W30 10.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W37 13.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W96 16.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y96 19+03 Bedford to Jowett Sidings
TB505
5Y01 03+47 Jowett Siding to Bedford
1W01 04.16 Bedford to Brighton
1W82 07.22 Brighton to Bedford
1W23 10.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13.05 Brighton to Bedford
1W45 15.50 Bedford to Brighton
1W56 18.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y69 21+14 Bedford to Jowett Sidings
5Y69 21+27 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W69 21.40 Bedford to Brighton
5W69 00+25 Brighton to Down Yard
The Box Photter
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If they're designed to ease congestion on TfL, why bother with first class at all. There's no first class on the Northern Line. Declassifying one end is only useful if you happen to be standing at the "lucky" end.
As for justifying my comment about reliability, only once in the last three weeks have I been able to catch the 1752 Blackfriars - Bedford home in the evening. Tonight the train was 39 minutes late at Flitwick, but at least the unit hadn't expired en-route. Most of the other no-shows were, I've been told by Thameslink Twitter/platform staff, either no driver trained to operate the train or a defect on the train causing termination.
In any event its a **** poor service for passengers. I wish I could afford to tool about during the working day hoping to sample the new wondertrains. Whilst the spotters and gricers are getting priapic, I'm trying to earn a living so I can pay for my season ticket. And then at the end of the day I have to play GTR Roulette, wondering how late the trains will be or how many will be cancelled today.
1W13 07.34 Bedford to Brighton was cancelled this morning too.
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Class377/5
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No-one said the 700s cannot have power points. Its just a completely different set of demands where the 707s will not operate at loads like the 700s do on a two track railway. No-were on SWT has the traffic levels like the Core will on a pure two track section.
Islineclear3_1
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Harbornite
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The retrofitting of 700s with this equipment is being considered, so in theory it is possible.
Class377/5
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Because first class are provided on many routes already. Your mixing one objective with being the only objective to make an attack. Perhaps you need some perspective and remember its not all input one transport group.
Problem with your attack is the fact that the 700s are failing the most often so it wouldn't be magically sorted by just having older type trains anyway. But your mixing up the issues facing your commute and shouting abut one type of train as the pure reason for your issues. Lets be honest, with the 700s would affect one train.
As alternatives I thought I'd look at other services you have to choose from for some perspective on your plight.
17.40 ex Sevenoaks
17.52 ex Brighton
17.56 ex Beckenham Junction
18.06 ex Sevenoaks
18.10 ex Three Bridges
What this does is mean there is a certain level of robustness so any one point of failure further out reduces it affects on the other side on Thameslink. That is unless the issue is at a point where all these merge but post 2018 that is at Blackfriars. So the woes of your having so many 700 hiccups is balances by plenty of alternative services unless your only waiting for a 700. Not quite sure how your a tool waiting for a service especially when an alternative one is simply 4mins later from your starting point but guessing you only want the fastest train as it gets you back 13mins later due to more calling points.
But you certainly can't blame the 700s for hours of misery your postings are suggesting. That is caused by (many, likely,) other things.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
Southeastern's 395's don't have first class either but the seats are a little more comfy than your average '375
I rarely ever get a weekday off as I'm working my ass off 12 hours a day 5 days a week so that I can have the weekends off. I have my own quibbles with my own commute but until I can afford to retire, I will just have to suck it up like everyone else.
Of course, we're a nation of complainers - and good at it too !
Class377/5
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No they are not. The talks are for Wifi and tables. Not power sockets.
oops...must be the heat...
Well its bloody roasting. And to be fair its been a few weeks since I last posted them and this thread is very active.
Dhassell
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Are the Diagrams still all Monday-Friday Only?
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Class377/5
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Yes. The next increase will see weekend working I believe but not yet confirmed.
Given declassification is done via the screens, it actually makes sense to have first at both ends - so you can then have some consistency, assuming you choose to always have it at the front or rear of the train - and advertise that fact on the platform screens.
People who have first class tickets can at least always know where to stand, rather than on the 377s where it's a bit hit and miss (or you have to hope the screens say).
BUT the screens will need to possibly be modified so there's a permanent notice of the fact, or at least when the train is stopped at a station. But, what about when an RPI wants to give you a ticket and the screens have gone blank just moments before as the train went through a neutral section...?!
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If only they could automatically modify the seats and surroundings when it switched from being standard class into first class.
I imagine there won't be much point in anyone buying a first class ticket off peak as the section that is the same but not aurally first class will often have space.
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The Box Photter
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Let's look at the alternatives you put forward:
17.40 ex Sevenoaks - Calls W Hampstead, Mill Hill, Elstree & Radlett before St Albans & all station to Bedford - would actually get me home AFTER the 17.56 ex Beckenham Jcn (see below) - also 2x319 so no aircon.
17.52 ex Brighton - Usually cancelled or so late it ends up behind the 17.56 (see below).
17.56 ex Beckenham Junction - Usually reliable and usually 2x387/1. Aircon mostly working but often gets platformed at Blackfriars BEFORE late running 17.52, so then has to soak up the 12-car passengers as well as its own at City, Farringdon & St Pancras.
18.06 ex Sevenoaks - Currently 2x377/5 on which the aircon is patchy at best at present.
18.10 ex Three Bridges - Too late & only 8 cars, the delayed 17.52 will be just behind (if running) - I wouldn't be getting home until around 19.30, having left the office at 17.00. I think 2.5 hours to get home is a bit much, don't you.
I expect working airconditioning in the summer, so a ratty well-past its sell-by date 319 doesn't seem like value for £5,172 per annum.
17.40 ex Sevenoaks - Calls W Hampstead, Mill Hill, Elstree & Radlett before St Albans & all station to Bedford - would actually get me home AFTER the 17.56 ex Beckenham Jcn (see below) - also 2x319 so no aircon.
17.52 ex Brighton - Usually cancelled or so late it ends up behind the 17.56 (see below).
17.56 ex Beckenham Junction - Usually reliable and usually 2x387/1. Aircon mostly working but often gets platformed at Blackfriars BEFORE late running 17.52, so then has to soak up the 12-car passengers as well as its own at City, Farringdon & St Pancras.
18.06 ex Sevenoaks - Currently 2x377/5 on which the aircon is patchy at best at present.
18.10 ex Three Bridges - Too late & only 8 cars, the delayed 17.52 will be just behind (if running) - I wouldn't be getting home until around 19.30, having left the office at 17.00. I think 2.5 hours to get home is a bit much, don't you.
I expect working airconditioning in the summer, so a ratty well-past its sell-by date 319 doesn't seem like value for £5,172 per annum.
On my first two trips I bought first class tickets, and then discovered I was in a declassified compartment!
I think another way to have done things would have been 'toilet out of use' type signs that illuminate only when first class is declassified. They could have been on the external doors and the internal entrance door. Simple really, but obviously too late now.
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