Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[AM9]

Yeah that's a good point. Did manage to catch one in the end, 1W92 Gatwick Airport to Bedford, from between St Pancras Intl and St Albans. Was a great fun, little slow out of St Pancras but quickly hit the fast lines and started speeding passed all those 319's! Think it was 700004 operating. Great expereince, even for rush hour there were a few spaces on the train, though it was extremely busy. I guess if the other Class 700 diagram trains hadn't had been cancelled, this train probably wouldn't be as packed given it had 12 coaches. But an enjoyable experience overall, nice A/C and very spacious inside, my favourite part being the destination displays which are very informative. To be honest, can't see what all the fuss is about!

The MML is slow through Kentish town up to Carlton Road junction where the ladder takes you from the slow to fast lines. The close signal spacing there prevents faster speeds anyway. The rapid acceleration is through the tunnel and past West Hampstead, or if it stops there, north to Elstree tunnel.
700004 is an 8-car train and I don't think they are running on passenger services yet. Maybe it was 700104. They are good people movers. Once all the early grumbles are out of the way, they will be seen for what they are and ease the heavy overcrowding on the MML. The seats are good enough for the average journey time on the line, (25mins - e.g. St Pancras to Harpenden) so for some actually being able to board their desired train all in the peak will be a blessing. Come October when passenger levels return to normal, the space will be well appreciated.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Will there be any extra 700 services added next week?

 

[physics34]

I emailed the DfT regarding the units and the lack of thought to the mid to long distance traveller and I finally got a response....... but it was basically all that we know already....

*no armrest so there is more aisle room

*WiFi and seat back tables still being discussed with Siemens

*Seats comfortable enough for longer distances (they would say that)

*they are made to move huge numbers of people through the core.

 

[leomartin125]

700004? Are you sure it wasn't 700104 - 004 isn't in service yet!

I have changed it, was 700104. And regarding 004 not being in service.... hardly ANY 700's are in bloody working order so I'm not surprised there! When I finally got on one, it was jam packed.

 

[J-2739]

I have changed it, was 700104. And regarding 004 not being in service.... hardly ANY 700's are in bloody working order so I'm not surprised there! When I finally got on one, it was jam packed.

None of the 8 car units are in service, IIRC.

 

[infobleep]

In the next 50 years, I wonder if there would be plans to tunnel an entirely new railway connecting north to south? Not sure where from or where to, but the two line core is always going to be a bottleneck, with huge delays if something bad happens.

Maybe one day, there will be a new high-speed Crossrail style line from the MML to BML (or maybe even to go and connect to HS2) and the current line will revert back to a more simple sub-surface like metro service to shortcut the alternative circle line route.

Hiw about the MML to SWT seeing as the SWT network us one of the busiest.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

Hiw about the MML to SWT seeing as the SWT network us one of the busiest.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Yeah, why not. The fact is that the core can't cope forever and the 'build it and they will come' line is so true here. With so many new services and so many more people getting moved through the bottleneck, extra capacity will be needed quite soon I think.

 

[infobleep]

Can anyome explain why the Class 387 trains needed to have plug sockets for every one to two seats but the class 700s don't? Apologies if it's already been asked.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[asylumxl]

Can anyome explain why the Class_387 trains needed to have plug sockets for every one to two seats but the class 700s don't? Apologies if it's already been asked.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Because they were never intended to be kept on Thameslink. According to the DfT nobody uses Thameslink for longer journeys.

 

[infobleep]

Because they were never intended to be kept on Thameslink. According to the DfT nobody uses Thameslink for longer journeys.

So how long is the average journey onone of these 387 trains likely to be once they move on?

Do many people travel from Brighton to City Thameslink? That's longer than 25 minutes.

I'm not saying plug sockets are the most essential thing, just surprised some trains have time and others don't.

 

[asylumxl]

So how long is the average journey onone of these 387 trains likely to be once they move on?

Do many people travel from Brighton to City Thameslink? That's longer than 25 minutes.

Im.not saying plug sockets are the most essential thing, just surprised some trains have time and others don't.

I'm not entirely sure.

In all seriousness though, these trains were specified in 2008 as has been previously discussed, so it seems that the parties involved were reluctant to change the specification and incur extra cost.

 

[infobleep]

I'm not entirely sure.

In all seriousness though, these trains were specified in 2008 as has been previously discussed, so it seems that the parties involved were reluctant to change the specification and incur extra cost.

OK. Didn't realise it was that far in advance. Technology moves at such a pace now. Back them smartphones were not what they are now. Portable battery packs didn't exist quite the same. Laptops didn't last as long as they can do now.

Rate of technology change might even increase going forward. If it takes 6 years for a train to go from planning to planning to service then trains could be out of date compared to latest technology even more quickly. However this probably doesn't matter so it's fine.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

OK. Didn't realise it was that far in advance. Technology moves at such a pace now. Back them smartphones were not what they are now. Portable battery packs didn't exist quite the same. Laptops didn't last as long as they can do now.

Rate of technology change might even increase going forward. If it takes 6 years for a train to go from planning to planning to service then trains could be out of date compared to latest technology even more quickly. However this probably doesn't matter so it's fine.


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Demands from phones has increased massively. No longer a device for calls and the odd text, now it's the web, watching video, taking photos and sharing content in real time.

But portable battery packs are a better solution in many cases, for numerous reasons. Wi-Fi is also something that is useful but often restricted, and that's even before you consider potential security issues.

 

[jaig]

Demands from phones has increased massively. No longer a device for calls and the odd text, now it's the web, watching video, taking photos and sharing content in real time.

But portable battery packs are a better solution in many cases, for numerous reasons. Wi-Fi is also something that is useful but often restricted, and that's even before you consider potential security issues.

Maybe there are no plug sockets and tables in standard class just to make first class more worth it, compared to the class 377/87s

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

 

[infobleep]

Maybe there are no plug sockets and tables in standard class just to make first class more worth it, compared to the class 377/87s

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Well the 387s don't seem to make first class worth it then.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[TheNewNo2]

The 13.24 BD - BI yesterday (formed of 700104) was originally announced (at Harpenden) to be 20mins late but was subsequently cancelled - reason given "due to a train defect". Yet, 20mins later it must have been doing line speed as it literally bombed though on the Up Fast heading south. Boy I would have liked to have been riding on that one....

I got on board that at Farringdon, and took it to East Croydon. The train sat for 10mins at Farringdon after I got on. According to the driver there was a problem with the doors on one of the trains ahead, and so that was slowing stuff down. [http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G74324/2016/08/12/advanced According to RTT] the 700 was cancelled at Gatwick rather than continuing to Three Bridges, allegedly due to door issues.

My impression was that the interior seemed very spacious, but that legroom is pretty bad - you really need to sit vertically in a seat if you want your knees to not touch the one in front. Overall the train impressed me.

 

[AM9]

... hardly ANY 700's are in bloody working order ...

How have you arrived at that view?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well the 387s don't seem to make first class worth it then.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Many passengers are happy to pay the additional fare in order to get more chance of a seat, particularly on a line as busy as the Thamelink routes. Not everybody thinks that they can't be more than a few feet away from a power socket for every part of their day.

 

[infobleep]

How have you arrived at that view?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Many passengers are happy to pay the additional fare in order to get more chance of a seat, particularly on a line as busy as the Thamelink routes. Not everybody thinks that they can't be more than a few feet away from a power socket for every part of their day.

Well the 387s aren't going to be on the Thameslink route for that long. They were being designed anyway and just ordered for the Thameslink route as a stop gap.

Unless they move to a line that is really popular, people won't see any benefit for first class.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[asylumxl]

Many passengers are happy to pay the additional fare in order to get more chance of a seat, particularly on a line as busy as the Thamelink routes. Not everybody thinks that they can't be more than a few feet away from a power socket for every part of their day.

I'd not say many passengers are "happy" to pay the additional fare in order to, rather they're "willing" to in the (rather naive) hope it'll mean a higher chance of a seat.

 

[bramling]

How have you arrived at that view?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Many passengers are happy to pay the additional fare in order to get more chance of a seat, particularly on a line as busy as the Thamelink routes. Not everybody thinks that they can't be more than a few feet away from a power socket for every part of their day.

The idea that anyone is "happy" to pay an extra thousand or two, per year, just to get the chance of a seat is a misnomer. Some do it because it makes sense in the form of the extra productivity, whilst for others the extra might not impact too heavily on their personal finances, but I don't think anyone's "happy" being in that position.

Likewise it has been suggested in the past that those who don't like the seating or lack of tables in the class 700 should pay extra for first class. It's interesting that, despite all we read on here about the class 700's inferior layouts being all about core capacity, over half of both driving vehicles are devoted to this. Evidently core capacity and loading times aren't quite so precious after all, or did we read on here somewhere it was the increase in vehicle weight that was a reason tables couldn't be provided? Any old reason to defend the inadequate product it seems.

 

[The Box Photter]

Can we just lay to rest once and for all the idea that in the rush hour southbound Thameslink trains currently arrive at St Pancras virtually empty and then a zillion people cram onto them to travel between St Pancras and Blackfriars. Southbound trains fill up to standing capacity+ between Bedford & St Albans, then a few people cram on at St Albans for the non-stop journey to St Pancras.

At St Pancras, around half the passengers get off the train and a few get on. Then the train runs between St Pancras & Blackfriars. Upon leaving Blackfriars, the train is around one quarter full.

The reverse happens in the evening rush. Northbound evening trains leave St Pancras full to bursting and then most of the standing passengers alight at St Albans.

I presume there's a similar pattern for northbound trains from Brighton into and out of London, with it being virtually impossible to get on a northbound am peak train at E Croydon.

Of course, RMT willing, there are a number of alternative ways passengers can get into London from places like E Croydon, Wimbledon etc. If you live in Harpenden or St Albans you've only Thameslink.

Most of the seated passengers using the trains do so for considerably longer than 25 mins. Its the standing passengers who use the trains for 25 mins or less currently and they'll still be standing on the class 700s because they have no more seats.

Crush loading doesn't happen THROUGH the core, it happens either side of it.

 

[class387]

I have changed it, was 700104. And regarding 004 not being in service.... hardly ANY 700's are in bloody working order so I'm not surprised there! When I finally got on one, it was jam packed.

The 8-cars (700004 included), are not in service and not planned to be in service - they haven't broken down. I might just be lucky, but on the six 700 trips I have had all of the units performed faultlessly.

 

[bramling]

Can we just lay to rest once and for all the idea that in the rush hour southbound Thameslink trains currently arrive at St Pancras virtually empty and then a zillion people cram onto them to travel between St Pancras and Blackfriars. Southbound trains fill up to standing capacity+ between Bedford & St Albans, then a few people cram on at St Albans for the non-stop journey to St Pancras.

At St Pancras, around half the passengers get off the train and a few get on. Then the train runs between St Pancras & Blackfriars. Upon leaving Blackfriars, the train is around one quarter full.

The reverse happens in the evening rush. Northbound evening trains leave St Pancras full to bursting and then most of the standing passengers alight at St Albans.

I presume there's a similar pattern for northbound trains from Brighton into and out of London, with it being virtually impossible to get on a northbound am peak train at E Croydon.

Of course, RMT willing, there are a number of alternative ways passengers can get into London from places like E Croydon, Wimbledon etc. If you live in Harpenden or St Albans you've only Thameslink.

Most of the seated passengers using the trains do so for considerably longer than 25 mins. Its the standing passengers who use the trains for 25 mins or less currently and they'll still be standing on the class 700s because they have no more seats.

Crush loading doesn't happen THROUGH the core, it happens either side of it.

This was exactly my observation when using Thameslink for 7 years. The trains tended to empty out at (then) King's Cross Thameslink on the southbound.

 

[infobleep]

Can we just lay to rest once and for all the idea that in the rush hour southbound Thameslink trains currently arrive at St Pancras virtually empty and then a zillion people cram onto them to travel between St Pancras and Blackfriars. Southbound trains fill up to standing capacity+ between Bedford & St Albans, then a few people cram on at St Albans for the non-stop journey to St Pancras.

At St Pancras, around half the passengers get off the train and a few get on. Then the train runs between St Pancras & Blackfriars. Upon leaving Blackfriars, the train is around one quarter full.

The reverse happens in the evening rush. Northbound evening trains leave St Pancras full to bursting and then most of the standing passengers alight at St Albans.

I presume there's a similar pattern for northbound trains from Brighton into and out of London, with it being virtually impossible to get on a northbound am peak train at E Croydon.

Of course, RMT willing, there are a number of alternative ways passengers can get into London from places like E Croydon, Wimbledon etc. If you live in Harpenden or St Albans you've only Thameslink.

Most of the seated passengers using the trains do so for considerably longer than 25 mins. Its the standing passengers who use the trains for 25 mins or less currently and they'll still be standing on the class 700s because they have no more seats.

Crush loading doesn't happen THROUGH the core, it happens either side of it.

Interesting. So they really need to make the seats comfortable as people will be on there for a while when seated but they also need lots of space for those standing who will be on their for a short time.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[bramling]

Interesting. So they really need to make the seats comfortable as people will be on there for a while when seated but they also need lots of space for those standing who will be on their for a short time.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

One way or other, they've basically made it uncomfortable for everyone. Perhaps the exception is if you're in a facing aisle seat and haven't got someone sitting opposite - although even then the seats are still hard and upright.

Meanwhile, of course, many people who currently board at King's Cross and today often get to sit on their train waiting to depart, will now find themselves standing on a crowded core platform, for a train that's more likely to be delayed compared to today. Another downgrade from today.

 

[infobleep]

One way or other, they've basically made it uncomfortable for everyone. Perhaps the exception is if you're in a facing aisle seat and haven't got someone sitting opposite - although even then the seats are still hard and upright.

Meanwhile, of course, many people who currently board at King's Cross and today often get to sit on their train waiting to depart, will now find themselves standing on a crowded core platform, for a train that's more likely to be delayed compared to today. Another downgrade from today.

Why is it more likely to be delayed? Will it be more delayed than the rolling stock that made up the same or similar service when that rolling stock was first introduced?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[asylumxl]

Why is it more likely to be delayed? Will it be more delayed than the rolling stock that made up the same or similar service when that rolling stock was first introduced?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I think they mean it's more likely to incur knock on delays in the core.

 

[Class2ldn]

I've had about 7 now and all apart from 1 have been faultless.
Had 104 last week I think it was and it had a fault where doors on the 2nd coach wouldn't release.
Fitter at Brighton couldn't sort it out either.
It went into the sidings after so not sure if it was fixed.

 

[trainmania100]

Seems to be a lot of problems with the doors...

 

[southern442]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many passengers are happy to pay the additional fare in order to get more chance of a seat, particularly on a line as busy as the Thamelink routes. Not everybody thinks that they can't be more than a few feet away from a power socket for every part of their day.

Slightly off topic, but, what about the Gatwick Express class 387's? Absolutely no difference between first and standard class, yet it's a whole lot more expensive. On GatEx, most trains you are pretty much guaranteed a seat anyway that argument doesn't work.