Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[physics34]

The suspension on Electrostars is always a bit lively, particularly at the back of the train. Try a brand new 387/2 going through Cricklewood on the down fast.

yeh, they sway, unlike more other stock. Can be quite uncomfortable above a motor bogie.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

I assume the 387s have a different bogie design to the 378s and 172s? The latter two I've always found excellent for ride quality, so I assume the 387 design is not as good. Yet to get a 387, but sure it beats a Pacer by a mile

 

[Domh245]

I assume the 387s have a different bogie design to the 378s and 172s? The latter two I've always found excellent for ride quality, so I assume the 387 design is not as good. Yet to get a 387, but sure it beats a Pacer by a mile

387s and 378s have the same kind of bogie design (as also used in all Bombardier UK products apart from the 220/221/222 classes, and 172) which IIRC is derived from the BREL bogie design. The 172s (along with the 220/222 classes and the new 345/710 classes) use an inboard framed bogie.

At this point, I half expect Phillip Phlopp to appear and inform us that the bogie used on the 387 has a different wall thickness in the section forming the outside frame compared to the 377s, which makes it a completely different bogie

 

[Sparks807Evo]

387s and 378s have the same kind of bogie design (as also used in all Bombardier UK products apart from the 220/221/222 classes, and 172) which IIRC is derived from the BREL bogie design. The 172s (along with the 220/222 classes and the new 345/710 classes) use an inboard framed bogie.

At this point, I half expect Phillip Phlopp to appear and inform us that the bogie used on the 387 has a different wall thickness in the section forming the outside frame compared to the 377s, which makes it a completely different bogie

Thanks for clearing that up - interesting that the 387s retain the older style bogie in that case. Hopefully the 345/710s will ride better judging by comments on here. The inboard framed bogie I find is very good, but no surprise if it's the newer design. The 378s may just ride well in my experiences as they don't reach the higher speeds that the 387s do.

 

[Domh245]

interesting that the 387s retain the older style bogie in that case.

Given that the 387s are really just a 110mph, dual voltage 397 (itself an "evolution" of the 377s and 375s before it, it isn't really a surprise. It would have been more work (and thus time and money) to convert that design to accept the new design of bogie, which is rather contrary to what the 387 order started out as - a stopgap solution to the Thameslink Programme delay.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Very true - as you say, no surprise there was no real change considering what was intended to be a short term build. Not worth the cost or hassle of implementing the new bogie design into what is essentially a 12/13 year old design. As it turns out, the 387 programme has gone far further than was originally expected.

 

[asylumxl]

The suspension on Electrostars is always a bit lively, particularly at the back of the train. Try a brand new 387/2 going through Cricklewood on the down fast.

I find the down fasts between Henson and the Elstree Tunnel the worst. It's like the train is being thrown around by a Mexican wrestler.

I believe it was you that told me it was due to problems with the underlying track structure in the area, but the Electrostars don't absorb it anywhere near as well as the 319s.

 

[Class377/5]

Very true - as you say, no surprise there was no real change considering what was intended to be a short term build. Not worth the cost or hassle of implementing the new bogie design into what is essentially a 12/13 year old design. As it turns out, the 387 programme has gone far further than was originally expected.

It's a lot older than 12/13 years. First Electrostars were in service in built in 1999 and that's without looking at the fact thy were initially designed under BR (the original full sized model BR built has 442 like drivers windows).

 

[Sparks807Evo]

It's a lot older than 12/13 years. First Electrostars were in service in built in 1999 and that's without looking at the fact thy were initially designed under BR (the original full sized model BR built has 442 like drivers windows).

Very true - somehow forgot about the older 357s and 375s! :roll:

 

[Nic Robinson]

2 X 700 sets just passed gatwick heading down. Inside 5 minutes.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

387s and 378s have the same kind of bogie design (as also used in all Bombardier UK products apart from the 220/221/222 classes, and 172) which IIRC is derived from the BREL bogie design. The 172s (along with the 220/222 classes and the new 345/710 classes) use an inboard framed bogie.

At this point, I half expect Phillip Phlopp to appear and inform us that the bogie used on the 387 has a different wall thickness in the section forming the outside frame compared to the 377s, which makes it a completely different bogie

No changes, as far as I know.

The BREL P3/T3 bogie design has only materially changed in design once - it started life as a fabricated design used under the Mark 3 units - initially the Class 150, Class 317 and Class 455. It came in two variants, one with a yaw damper, for speeds above 75mph, and one without, with 75mph being the maximum speed.

The P3 bogie was only used on the Class 150 and later Class 156 at this point, and was only for a final drive connected to the usual Voith T211 gearbox, at the time, the DC motors used by the Mark 3 family, particularly the EE507 motors, were too bulky and heavy to work on the P3 bogie, so the Mark 3 EMU family used the P7 bogies on the motor vehicles.

The movement to lighter and more compact AC motors on the Networker family allowed the P3 bogies to be used, and the old P7 bogie design effectively disappeared.

The T3 bogie is the unpowered variant, and is what features on the driving vehicles and trailers on Mark 3 multiple units, and generally the PTSO vehicle on Electrostars. They have sub-variants with lifeguard fittings, AWS sensors, that sort of thing, as does the P3 bogie.

AdTranz moved to a cast variant of the design and later had it certified for 110mph operation, which is what's under the Class 387.

There are other BREL bogie designs - sadly Bombardier didn't progress with the P4/T4 as it's the best riding bogie we've ever had. It's essentially a heavily modified P3/T3 for 140mph running, designed for the IC225 Mark 4 coaching stock, and it's lovely. There's also the BREL BT10 and BP10 bogies, under Mark 3 and HST PC vehicles, respectively, the BREL P7 bogie as mentioned above, BREL B4 and B5 bogies on the Mark 2 stock, and BX1 bogies on the PEP stock (they were developed into the P3/T3 design).

And the Bombardier Flexx Eco inside frame bogie is the old BR Advanced Suburban Bogie, the IP for it went in a management buyout deal of Doncaster WagonWorks which became RFS (the ASB drifted at that time into becoming a bogie for container flats as I recall) and RFS was bought out of administration by Bombardier. ASB became B5000 and later Flexx Eco but Bombarider and AdTranz were still separate companies at that time.

 

[Class2ldn]

2 X 700 sets just passed gatwick heading down. Inside 5 minutes.

One was a driver training unit and the other a shunt move

 

[Class377/5]

Think you guys might like this info, Thursday & Friday this week only. Different workings next week.

1W26 11.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W43 13.54 Bedford to Three Bridges

 

[superalbs]

Think you guys might like this info, Thursday & Friday this week only. Different workings next week.

1W26 11.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W43 13.54 Bedford to Three Bridges

Thanks, but what is it working today, anybody know?

 

[class387]

Think you guys might like this info, Thursday & Friday this week only. Different workings next week.

1W26 11.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W43 13.54 Bedford to Three Bridges

Would next week be full diagrams?

 

[Class377/5]

Would next week be full diagrams?

No diagrams next week. Just a single diagram that works most of the day to/from London Bridge. No Core trips.

Thanks, but what is it working today, anybody know?

Check back on a few pages as it's already been stated.

 

[fgwrich]

No diagrams next week. Just a single diagram that works most of the day to/from London Bridge. No Core trips.



Check back on a few pages as it's already been stated.

Mods and Class377/5 - is it worth creating a temporary sticky / note in the frequently requested diagrams thread with this, just to save people asking everyday?

 

[Class377/5]

Mods and Class377/5 - is it worth creating a temporary sticky / note in the frequently requested diagrams thread with this, just to save people asking everyday?

Not really as they are going to change a lot. There's two different diagrams this week, next week is different again and following week changes again.

 

[tramps01]

Hope one of the diagrams includes 12 42 LBG - BTN, today left LBG F & S, 4 coaches only, still F & S leaving ECR, incoming service looked a bit crowded too. Certainly looks a case for 8 cars. Anyone say what unit came in from Dollands Moor this am.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not really as they are going to change a lot. There's two different diagrams this week, next week is different again and following week changes again.

Hope one of the diagrams includes 12 42 LBG - BTN, today left LBG F & S, 4 coaches only, still F & S leaving ECR, incoming service looked a bit crowded too. Certainly looks a case for 8 cars. Anyone say what unit came in from Dollands Moor this am.

 

[Bald Rick]

I find the down fasts between Henson and the Elstree Tunnel the worst. It's like the train is being thrown around by a Mexican wrestler.

I believe it was you that told me it was due to problems with the underlying track structure in the area, but the Electrostars don't absorb it anywhere near as well as the 319s.

It was indeed me, and that is indeed a problem. However having sat in row ZZ of a 12 x 387 tonight, I barely noticed the section in question, whereas everyone noticed Cricklewood!

Besides, a 319 on a down evening peak service will be lucky to get to 85mph by Mill Hill, whereas a 3x7 will be at or near 100mph at Cricklewood.

 

[trainmania100]

700007 came in this morning move

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It was indeed me, and that is indeed a problem. However having sat in row ZZ of a 12 x 387 tonight, I barely noticed the section in question, whereas everyone noticed Cricklewood!

Besides, a 319 on a down evening peak service will be lucky to get to 85mph by Mill Hill, whereas a 3x7 will be at or near 100mph at Cricklewood.

A 3x7 can coast from the M25 bridge - and still be on time at SAC (as one driver will occassionally tell you on the PA) - this to do , with 3xx running in 319 SRT's. 700's will do even / much better.

(or they wait time at SAC on the down fast) ..

Best ever recorded speed in too many years travelling was about a 110 mph in the dip Elstree -Radlett on an NSE 317 , straight onto the DF from old St Pancras with a "keen driver" ...

 

[Class377/5]

Hope one of the diagrams includes 12 42 LBG - BTN, today left LBG F & S, 4 coaches only, still F & S leaving ECR, incoming service looked a bit crowded too. Certainly looks a case for 8 cars. Anyone say what unit came in from Dollands Moor this am.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hope one of the diagrams includes 12 42 LBG - BTN, today left LBG F & S, 4 coaches only, still F & S leaving ECR, incoming service looked a bit crowded too. Certainly looks a case for 8 cars. Anyone say what unit came in from Dollands Moor this am.

Don't think that diagram is changing just let. Worth noting that since Dec most 1Bxx services inbetween the peaks are 4 cars.

 

[westcoaster]

It was indeed me, and that is indeed a problem. However having sat in row ZZ of a 12 x 387 tonight, I barely noticed the section in question, whereas everyone noticed Cricklewood!

Besides, a 319 on a down evening peak service will be lucky to get to 85mph by Mill Hill, whereas a 3x7 will be at or near 100mph at Cricklewood.

319 will do 85/90 by graham park neutral section, a 377/387 you have to shut of power by cricklewood as to not break the 95mph limit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A 3x7 can coast from the M25 bridge - and still be on time at SAC (as one driver will occassionally tell you on the PA) - this to do , with 3xx running in 319 SRT's. 700's will do even / much better.

(or they wait time at SAC on the down fast) ..

Best ever recorded speed in too many years travelling was about a 110 mph in the dip Elstree -Radlett on an NSE 317 , straight onto the DF from old St Pancras with a "keen driver" ...

Works the other way too, you can coast from the M1 bridge to St Pancras low level. 319's will just reach 100 by radlett station, loose a few mph up to harpers lane, gain it back in the dip by the siding and then scream on full power upto napsbury loosing about 5/10 mph.

 

[Uzair]

Will be at Blackfriars today for the Brighton to Bedford run.

 

[physics34]

Will be at Blackfriars today for the Brighton to Bedford run.

I'm gonna do it from East croydon to Farringdon

 

[AM9]

I'm gonna do it from East croydon to Farringdon

Anybody else at ECR?

 

[Nic Robinson]

Ok. Sitting aboard 700109 as I type. First impressions are mixed. Seats are v hard and airline legroom insufficient. This would make working on a laptop much harder than 377/387. Seats are a little narrow but nothing too worrying. The conduit allows me to just about have my legs vertical at a window seat. Does not seem any quieter than an electrostar tbh. Ride is ok but occasional side to side movement evident. Certainly no worse than other stock but no better. At 88 mph the ride is rough ( probably Brighton line to blame). There is a nasty smell of disinfectant throughout. The on board station announcement is odd; she seems more and more surprised with each station read with a bizarre up inflection every word! Just reached gatwick. Not much use being made of the tiny luggage racks. If open plan is the way forward I'm not entirely convinced A medium level conversation is perfectly audible from the next carriage. Annoying laughter is intrusive from two carriages away. So these are first impressions as as head for M25. Cheers, Nic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Epic door fail at st Pancras. Not sure why but the didn't open for a good 2 minutes after arrival. Passengers not impressed!! Other than this passage through the core was efficient.

 

[Class2ldn]

That's weird with the doors as we can override them quickly and even if say the front 4 opened you just click on the back of the train and release (cut down version).
I drove that recently and it had a few software issues.

 

[Nic Robinson]

That's weird with the doors as we can override them quickly and even if say the front 4 opened you just click on the back of the train and release (cut down version).
I drove that recently and it had a few software issues.

Odd then! So my review doesn't look too negative, delighted with the overhead racks (which were being used a lot on other parts of the train as I walked through). They are so much deeper than the useless Electrostar ones. Loos were like the ones I'm used to on other classes.