Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[jon0844]

Is that large cabinet in picture 4 where the pantograph feed is run?

The bit that looks a bit like a poster board on the side is in fact a 'break in emergency' panel, which then opens to release clip on seat-back tables.

But don't tell anyone.

 

[Domh245]

I don't think that anyone has commented yet on the apparent blueness of the lights. Not like those distinctly yellow ones as fitted to S stock.

 

[jon0844]

They are a cool white light, but in reality they won't be as blue as some cameras are making them look.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think that anyone has commented yet on the apparent blueness of the lights. Not like those distinctly yellow ones as fitted to S stock.

They did, but back in November. Discussion then also mentioned that cameras were exaggerating the effect due to external lighting, as jonmorris0844 has just pointed out.

If you go here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=92632&page=115 there are plenty of comments about the pictures on the previous page.

 

[Skimble19]

What I still find somewhat amusing is that with all this talk of the lack of tables and armrests, it seems to be largely forgotten that if you go into First Class you'll get a table and an arm rest!

I must admit though the more I see the standard class interior the more I wish it could still be altered..

 

[southern442]

What I still find somewhat amusing is that with all this talk of the lack of tables and armrests, it seems to be largely forgotten that if you go into First Class you'll get a table and an arm rest!

We know that, but up until now you didn't have to pay extra for those things.

 

[Skimble19]

True, and I do disagree with it, but my point was more that for anyone who finds it essential to have them they can still have them, they'll just have to use First. My personal opinion is that the standard class interior is a massive downgrade for most passengers and compared to a 365 is laughable. But there's no point expressing any negativity towards these as you'll just be told it didn't meet the spec etc.

Still, let's see wha the general public think of them when they enter service, that should be amusing.. (Especially on GN services!)

 

[bramling]

True, and I do disagree with it, but my point was more that for anyone who finds it essential to have them they can still have them, they'll just have to use First. My personal opinion is that the standard class interior is a massive downgrade for most passengers and compared to a 365 is laughable. But there's no point expressing any negativity towards these as you'll just be told it didn't meet the spec etc.

Still, let's see wha the general public think of them when they enter service, that should be amusing.. (Especially on GN services!)

It won't be long before something will have to give. It's not just the inferior trains, but worse will be when passengers used to today's largely right-time railway (despite the inherent fragility of the Great Northern's mix of service patterns) find themselves getting caught up in disruption as a result of problems elsewhere. Today a problem somewhere between St Pancras and Brighton / Horsham / Tattenham Corner quite simply won't affect the Great Northern, post-Thameslink it will.

I suspect that, without the word 'failure' being heard, nor those who planned or specified this mess being held to account, the Thameslink service will be scaled back a bit following implementation. How much will depend on just how much of a disaster things turn out to be. Still won't solve the problem of the horrible incompetently specified class 700s though.

 

[MML]

I have to agree. 24 trains per hour through the core presumably means 12 northbound and 12 southbound per hour. If evenly spaced, an interval of 5 minutes between each service.

How on earth are they going to ensure the trains from the myriad of destinations are delivered to the core so punctually ? MML has a fairly simple service pattern when there are no problems, but GN and lines south of the river are far more complex with competition for the limited resources.

It's certainly going to be fun waiting for late running services only to board a train to find the 'ironing board' seats are all taken.

 

[sarahj]

As this is around post 2230sih, I might have missed someone saying something, but when one on test came through Gatwick tonight, I did notice old style block brakes on some boogies. It was on the ones with shoes, so I was wondering if they are motor boogies, and if its some 'high tech' way to deal with the leaf fall issue.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have to agree. 24 trains per hour through the core presumably means 12 northbound and 12 southbound per hour. If evenly spaced, an interval of 5 minutes between each service.

No you are quite wrong - a 24 tph service means 24 per hour in each direction.

That is the normal way of expressing service frequencies, unless you work in rail PR, in which case you'd call it 48 tph... :roll:

 

[hwl]

As this is around post 2230sih, I might have missed someone saying something, but when one on test came through Gatwick tonight, I did notice old style block brakes on some boogies. It was on the ones with shoes, so I was wondering if they are motor boogies, and if its some 'high tech' way to deal with the leaf fall issue.

Correct on all points - the motor bogies have traditional tread brakes as there isn't room for modern type brakes on Siemens inside framed motor bogies, they should be useful in removing leaf paste...

(however there is room on bombardiers inside framed bogies as seen on future 345s and 710s though)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No you are quite wrong - a 24 tph service means 24 per hour in each direction.

That is the normal way of expressing service frequencies, unless you work in rail PR, in which case you'd call it 48 tph... :roll:

or 30tph in service recovery mode which is probably the real reason for requiring ultra quick dwell times with doors open for circa 30s in the core.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

As this is around post 2230sih, I might have missed someone saying something, but when one on test came through Gatwick tonight, I did notice old style block brakes on some boogies. It was on the ones with shoes, so I was wondering if they are motor boogies, and if its some 'high tech' way to deal with the leaf fall issue.

Siemens say so - but there's more than a few people who think Siemens couldn't match the BR Advanced Suburban Bogie (now the Bombardier Flexx ECO bogie) without copying it pretty much exactly, and had to take their design in a different direction.

 

[hwl]

Siemens say so - but there's more than a few people who think Siemens couldn't match the BR Advanced Suburban Bogie (now the Bombardier Flexx ECO bogie) without copying it pretty much exactly, and had to take their design in a different direction.

Also didn't Siemens originally want to source the bogies from Bombardier but they wouldn't play as it would give Siemens a better chance of winning the order (DB has ordered some stock from Siemens but with Bombardier bogies in the recent past...) so Siemens had to come up with their own similar but different design (25% mass reduction but using inside frame design?)

 

[Domh245]

Correct on all points - the motor bogies have traditional tread brakes as there isn't room for modern type brakes on Siemens inside framed motor bogies, they should be useful in removing leaf paste...

(however there is room on bombardiers inside framed bogies as seen on future 345s and 710s though)

The Bombardier design (assuming that it is still an eco-flexx bogie as used in 22x and 172s) has the brake rotor forming part of the wheel - it is the shiny bit with holes in. It isn't inside of the bogie as you would get on a conventional one, but is just one way of packaging the bogie. You can see the brake calipers on the edge of the frame. It is a case of optimising the design. Siemens presumably went for the tread brake because it can scrub mulch off of the wheels, Bombardier went for their way for their own reasons possibly so that the rotors could be swapped out in the event of them becoming worn beyond use whilst the wheel itself is still serviceable.

 

[ert47]

Just spotted one passing back south through Croydon, noticed the panto light on. Is that a new feature of Siemens stock? On the newer 377/387 stock, I thought the light only illuminated when on AC.

 

[MML]

No you are quite wrong - a 24 tph service means 24 per hour in each direction.

That is the normal way of expressing service frequencies, unless you work in rail PR, in which case you'd call it 48 tph... :roll:

Oh blimey, I stand corrected. So that's one every 2.5 minutes.
I can see a Peterborough service switching with a Bedford service on the approach from the south and bewildered passengers travelling up the GN when they thought they were going up the MML.

How on earth is a train from Brighton, Cambridge or Peterborough expected to maintain that level of punctuality ?

 

[Domh245]

Siemens say so - but there's more than a few people who think Siemens couldn't match the BR Advanced Suburban Bogie (now the Bombardier Flexx ECO bogie) without copying it pretty much exactly, and had to take their design in a different direction.

Unless the BR ASB is something completely different, would it not have ended up as the bogie used by the bulk of the star family to date? Or were those derived from the BREL P/T4? I thought that the actual Flexx Eco inboard bogies were a bombardier invention.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Unless the BR ASB is something completely different, would it not have ended up as the bogie used by the bulk of the star family to date? Or were those derived from the BREL P/T4? I thought that the actual Flexx Eco inboard bogies were a bombardier invention.

The bogie history and IP ownership is incredibly complicated. Quell surprise where British Rail during privatisation is concerned.

The BR ASB was co-developed by BREL and RFS Industries, which was a management buy-out of Doncaster WagonWorks, one of the first BR privatisations, they held the rights to the bogie and when they went bust in 1993, they were bought out of administration by Bombardier.

The BREL P3/T3 bogies were developed by BREL, they were used on the Mark 3 multiple unit family, and subsequently developed for the Networker and Turbo families. They're originally a 100mph bogie design with disk brakes and yaw dampers, and a 75mph design with clasp brakes and no yaw dampers, originally fabricated, later assembled around cast frames.

The limitations of the P3/T3 bogies led to the development of the BREL P4/T4 bogies, which were designed for 125mph and 140mph running. Higher speeds is why they lose the brake disks on the wheels and move them inboard onto the axles, where more disks of larger diameter and higher braking force could be fitted, with the ability to dissipate more heat. They were planned for the Mark 4 and Mark 5 coaches, eventually finding their way onto Mark 3 DVTs and Class 158 units, where their braking performance is useful.

The BREL T3/P3 and T4/P4 bogies passed through privatisation with BREL, and the IP there ended up with ABB, as the new owners of the business and the Derby plant at Litchurch Lane. ABB became AdTranz when Daimler bought in, and eventually became DaimlerChrysler Transportation when ABB sold up.

ABB only had the P3/T3 and P4/T4 families of bogie available to them, and as Electrostar and Turbostar started as developments of the Networker families, they stuck with the P3/T3 bogies rather than moving to the P4/T4 bogies, which hadn't (and still haven't) been used with electric motors.

Bombardier at this time were developing the Voyager family - they didn't have the rights to the P4/T4 bogies, they only had their tilting bogie design which if memory serves was licensed from someone, and the BR ASB which they had picked up in 1993 from the RFS Industries fire sale. They didn't even have a proper electric traction business in Europe, so had to use Alstom and their people in Preston to design the transmission system for the Voyager and Meridian fleets.

Bombardier eventually bought the AdTranz business from DaimlerChrysler in 2001. That's the first time since 1993 that the Advanced Suburban Bogie was back within the same business that was designing and developing the units it was designed to be fitted to, it would take until 2009 before it would eventually appear under a Turbostar, almost 20 years later than British Rail intended.

Short version - the company that made Voyagers wasn't the same company that made Turbostars until 2001.

 

[bramling]

Oh blimey, I stand corrected. So that's one every 2.5 minutes.
I can see a Peterborough service switching with a Bedford service on the approach from the south and bewildered passengers travelling up the GN when they thought they were going up the MML.

How on earth is a train from Brighton, Cambridge or Peterborough expected to maintain that level of punctuality ?

The answer is that, on occasions, it won't. Which will result in problems on the Great Northern side with the mix of stopping patterns sharing the same tracks.

But don't worry, the timetable will be carefully "modelled", so all will be fine. (In the deluded dream-world of the Thameslink Programme).

 

[Class377/5]

Just spotted one passing back south through Croydon, noticed the panto light on. Is that a new feature of Siemens stock? On the newer 377/387 stock, I thought the light only illuminated when on AC.

They are light at all times for the camera. The Bombardier soluation is only come ok on while on AC. Personally i think the Siemens soluation is add it'll be easier to check how objects came to be in the pan well plus the to watch the pan well at any point so should be able to see any object in there prior to needing the AC (subject to enough warning).

Oh blimey, I stand corrected. So that's one every 2.5 minutes.
I can see a Peterborough service switching with a Bedford service on the approach from the south and bewildered passengers travelling up the GN when they thought they were going up the MML.

How on earth is a train from Brighton, Cambridge or Peterborough expected to maintain that level of punctuality ?

Currently using 319s you can get close to that (Ive had 45 second dwell time with 319s in the peak a few years back so doing it 700s will be fine). Using ATO along with faster accelerating stock means is all possible. Don't forget the quicker boarding/exiting along with longer trains will help keep dwell times down compared to the current stock.

As for last minute switching, as the CIS and signaling will be interlinked there won't be the situation previously where at Blackfriars could trains swapped over warning only coming as the train pulled in is a thing of the past. The same on the southbound platform at St Pancras where the junction is even closer but again the ATO system will help here.

However your exampe a Bedford being swapped with a Peterborough could only happen last minute at East Croydon by the time the units are at Norwood Junction they are already in a path so Core passengers (including London Bridge) will have plently of warning.

 

[bramling]

They are light at all times for the camera. The Bombardier soluation is only come ok on while on AC. Personally i think the Siemens soluation is add it'll be easier to check how objects came to be in the pan well plus the to watch the pan well at any point so should be able to see any object in there prior to needing the AC (subject to enough warning).



Currently using 319s you can get close to that (Ive had 45 second dwell time with 319s in the peak a few years back so doing it 700s will be fine). Using ATO along with faster accelerating stock means is all possible. Don't forget the quicker boarding/exiting along with longer trains will help keep dwell times down compared to the current stock.

As for last minute switching, as the CIS and signaling will be interlinked there won't be the situation previously where at Blackfriars could trains swapped over warning only coming as the train pulled in is a thing of the past. The same on the southbound platform at St Pancras where the junction is even closer but again the ATO system will help here.

However your exampe a Bedford being swapped with a Peterborough could only happen last minute at East Croydon by the time the units are at Norwood Junction they are already in a path so Core passengers (including London Bridge) will have plently of warning.

I'm not sure comparisons with today are entirely valid. Going north on Thameslink today there are basically only two service groups. Same going south more or less. And in the north there's a certain amount of overlap between the Bedford and Luton services, you also have some passengers choosing to avoid Thameslink altogether and use EMT to Luton and Bedford.

Fast forward to 2018 and five different groups of services going north, all wanting to be first on board their respective train to secure the best chance of a seat, combined with (perhaps) people already on the train all positioning themselves to leave nearest the exit. London Underground can struggle to get dwell times of less than a minute at certain locations, with more doors per train and a more uniform service. We'll see what happens, but it seems highly optimistic. And of course this is all before anything goes wrong.

 

[hwl]

The Bombardier design (assuming that it is still an eco-flexx bogie as used in 22x and 172s) has the brake rotor forming part of the wheel - it is the shiny bit with holes in. It isn't inside of the bogie as you would get on a conventional one, but is just one way of packaging the bogie. You can see the brake calipers on the edge of the frame. It is a case of optimising the design. Siemens presumably went for the tread brake because it can scrub mulch off of the wheels, Bombardier went for their way for their own reasons possibly so that the rotors could be swapped out in the event of them becoming worn beyond use whilst the wheel itself is still serviceable.

Inside or outside frame has nothing to do with the brakes but whether the bearings are inside or outside the wheels on the axles.

The brake rotors can also be on the wheels of "conventional" (outside framed) bogies see lots of BR stock 150s, 165s, 365s, 455s, 465s and the more recent electrostar and desiro families. Given the numbers of those units in service I would argue wheel mounted rotors would be norm in the UK...

Only high speed stock for example Mk3s and TGVs have multiple axle mounted rotors due to the friction brakes being less effective at higher rotational speeds and needing to dissipate far more heat than at lower operating speeds (heat dissipation being proportional to the speed squared) so wheel mounted rotors not being sufficient. If there are axle mounted rotor there isn't space for traction motors so they are only on unpowered bogies. The older TGVS had tread brakes on the motor bogies as that was all there was space for.

 

[GodAtum]

Will there be a decent amount of 1st class on these trains?

 

[Retorus]

I'm really not looking forward to losing most of the 365s for these things.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will there be a decent amount of 1st class on these trains?

There will be an amount at each end, 26 seats IIRC from seat plans on a flickr site, most of them (22) are around tables.

Compares with 60-72 or so in a 3 x 4 car Electrostar formation. Some have 10 and some 12 each end of course.

Some people will think it is far too much, others not enough, some think there shouldn't be any. Possibly makes 'decent' rather difficult to assess...

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if any services will be declassified, as is currently the situation on many semi-fast peak services on the GN side - and indeed all the time on some sections of TL.

 

[Class377/5]

I wonder if any services will be declassified, as is currently the situation on many semi-fast peak services on the GN side - and indeed all the time on some sections of TL.

Already publicly stated in certain circumstances it will be.

 

[jon0844]

I don't mean on an occasional basis, but rather like now where many services on GN run without first class, but with FC equipped stock.

The reason has always been that some of these (usually terminating at WGC) trains could be run with a 313, so they're never marked as having first class.

But presumably once everything is finished, there will never be Moorgate terminating 700s used elsewhere, and so every train will have FC. As such, I'd expect the timetables to be changed.

 

[JaJaWa]

There are rumours of (some?) of First class being permanently declassified on some services that are always booked for Thameslink 700s.