TFL fare evasion: won my case!

[357]

This is the problem when you are given no evidence that you have paid. I often wonder if using the self-service checkouts at a supermarket and don't get a receipt where I stand?
Trouble with the TfL system is it your account doesn't get debited until during the night, so there's no immediate debit on your account to check online

I've had this situation. From the time, date, last part of the card number and amount Tesco could pull up the receipt for me!

 

[madjack]

Your TfL online account is usually updated within a few minutes but that might be too late if the bus inspector comes first. In a supermarket your bank account is updated immediately after payment and with many if not most banks you can set it up so that you get a notification on your phone after any payment. The payment should be visible as a 'pending' transaction in mobile banking.

With TFL, I only get a "pending" transaction and my bank app's notification of a 10p withdrawal if I haven't used my contactless for more than a week or two. Within a shorter interval it seems to trust that the full amount will be taken correctly at the end of the day. So I wouldn't be able to rely on my bank account to prove I touched in.

 

[Snow1964]

Your TfL online account is usually updated within a few minutes but that might be too late if the bus inspector comes first. In a supermarket your bank account is updated immediately after payment and with many if not most banks you can set it up so that you get a notification on your phone after any payment. The payment should be visible as a 'pending' transaction in mobile banking.

But there are hundreds of thousands of Oyster cards that don’t have an associated online account, it is a subsequent process to create an account, and also would rely on someone having an an appropriate personal device to access it.

The idea that every person with oyster also carries a smartphone with the Oyster App, or can remember their login to do it on a webpage is never going to happen.

 

[johncrossley]

With TFL, I only get a "pending" transaction and my bank app's notification of a 10p withdrawal if I haven't used my contactless for more than a week or two. Within a shorter interval it seems to trust that the full amount will be taken correctly at the end of the day. So I wouldn't be able to rely on my bank account to prove I touched in.

You can look at your TfL online account to see your bus, tube and train journeys. It usually gets updated a few minutes after each tap in or out.

https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/MyCards

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2022 ==

But there are hundreds of thousands of Oyster cards that don’t have an associated online account, it is a subsequent process to create an account, and also would rely on someone having an an appropriate personal device to access it.

The idea that every person with oyster also carries a smartphone with the Oyster App, or can remember their login to do it on a webpage is never going to happen.

Most people aren't worried about getting a criminal record while using public transport, because they believe that the systems are robust enough so that they never fail. They only find out the hard way, like the OP. So only a few people, for example the people on this thread, will take precautions.

 

[XAM2175]

Anyway, the driver noticed it hadnt worked and explained we needed to press harder on the pad, not just wave it as you do for most other contactless transactions.

As an aside, "waving it" has never been the standard for any contactless transaction that I can think of. Some systems are fast enough that it works anyway, but it's not a given that they will be.

 

[johncrossley]

With tube and train Oyster readers you can easily hold the card about 2 cm away. On buses, the Oyster readers are now behind a protective screen since Covid, making them harder to validate. This picture shows the Oyster reader sticking out of the screen, which would be fine, but I haven't seen one like that

https://www.soe.org.uk/resources/rh...s-from-covid-19-with-fully-sealed-cabins.html

 

[Deafdoggie]

I often wonder if using the self-service checkouts at a supermarket and don't get a receipt where I stand?

The difference though is that the supermarket must prove you haven't paid. Not having a receipt is not evidence of having not paid, in the same way having a receipt isn't proof of paying if you've simply found it on the floor! A supermarket can not stop you without evidence of non-payment I.e. they have watched you pick the item off the shelf and then walk straight through the checkout. Picking an item off the shelf and putting it in your pocket isn't even good enough, you've got to pass the checkout too. Equally just passing through the checkout isn't good enough as you can say you've been through already and just went back in, they must see you get the item off the shelf and walk through the checkouts before they can stop you.

 

[Graham H]

As an aside, "waving it" has never been the standard for any contactless transaction that I can think of. Some systems are fast enough that it works anyway, but it's not a given that they will be.

OK....passing card across the receiver then, I just did that at Sainsburys. Seeing the comment/picture from Johncrossley its pretty obvious that the gap caused by the screen was probably the issue as a card passed over the reader would be a few cm away so wouldnt trigger as easily as one just a few mm from the Sainsbury one I used today. Documented cases exist where cards in pockets have triggered these payment devices ! I suppose what I was driving at is that in a store its clear the transaction worked or they wouldnt let me leave but as a first time user in a London bus I had no idea it hadnt registered as nobody gives you a receipt.

 

[357]

Another note for TfL buses is that on many since Covid, the extra screen makes many phone payments not work (especially when people aren't exactly sure of the precise location of the NFC. Some have it behind the camera, some on the very top, etc). There can be a gap of 1.5-2cm in many cases.

My wife simply can not pay with her phone on any bus we have been on even knowing exactly where the NFC chip is. (OnePlus 8)

 

[XAM2175]

OK....passing card across the receiver then, I just did that at Sainsburys. Seeing the comment/picture from Johncrossley its pretty obvious that the gap caused by the screen was probably the issue as a card passed over the reader would be a few cm away so wouldnt trigger as easily as one just a few mm from the Sainsbury one I used today. Documented cases exist where cards in pockets have triggered these payment devices ! I suppose what I was driving at is that in a store its clear the transaction worked or they wouldnt let me leave but as a first time user in a London bus I had no idea it hadnt registered as nobody gives you a receipt.

As I said, the fact that some systems are good enough to detect the passing of a card across the reader doesn't automatically mean that all systems can.

TfL's wording is clear: touch your contactless card, device, or Oyster card on the yellow card reader at the start of your journey.

I am not aiming to minimise your complaint or disregard your experience, but rather noting for your benefit - and that of others who may read this thread either now or in the future - that in the absence of official guidance to the contrary you should always assume that a contactless transaction will require you to hold the card or device against the reader pad for as long as it takes for the success or failure of the transaction to be acknowledged.

 

[MikeWh]

How does this work on bus routes with a loop at one end instead of a terminus?

For example, the 366 has a large single direction loop around an estate, so it is totally possible for someone to board the bus before the bus stop that's classified as the terminus, when in reality it's more of a "regulating point"

The loop end won't be a terminating point. The bus will continue on it's journey until it gets back to the other end.

 

[Graham H]

As I said, the fact that some systems are good enough to detect the passing of a card across the reader doesn't automatically mean that all systems can.

TfL's wording is clear: touch your contactless card, device, or Oyster card on the yellow card reader at the start of your journey.

I am not aiming to minimise your complaint or disregard your experience, but rather noting for your benefit - and that of others who may read this thread either now or in the future - that in the absence of official guidance to the contrary you should always assume that a contactless transaction will require you to hold the card or device against the reader pad for as long as it takes for the success or failure of the transaction to be acknowledged.

No problem XAM, as a country numpty I wont of course have read tfl's guidance, I simply got on a bus with the knowledge that I needed to use a contactless card and having done what we all do in countless shops had no idea if it had worked until the bus driver intervened. I suspect we have now strayed way past the original OP issue although my experience does kind of support the OP's problem in that they thought they had done the right thing but then got a nasty letter. I do see some irony in the tfl wording. Its called contactless for a reason but as you quote the tfl words say touch your contactless card etc etc so you have to make contact with your contactless card.....

 

[mmh]

How does this work on bus routes with a loop at one end instead of a terminus?

For example, the 366 has a large single direction loop around an estate, so it is totally possible for someone to board the bus before the bus stop that's classified as the terminus, when in reality it's more of a "regulating point"

It works poorly even on routes which have a clear terminus. Many years ago, I used Oyster for a 2 stop journey (unusually for London a journey with stops a fair distance apart, I could have walked but was feeling lazy) to its terminus. I went to the bank to do what I needed, and was quick enough that the bus back was the same one.

The reader claimed "card pass-back" or whatever the wording is, the driver just waved me on after I explained I'd got off it a few minutes earlier. Who knows what an inspector would have said. I do know I wouldn't have paid hundreds of pounds to defend myself though!

 

[IanXC]

Couple of thoughts, I have always found that Google Pay is updated immediately with details of my touch in (even if no amount is yet shown) which avoids the 'inspector arrives before details are shown on banking apps' problem.

As far as Supermarkets go, I have got so fed up with staff at my local supermarket not bothering to deactivate security stickers (that set the alarm off when you leave) that I just keep walking. Even the security staff are now of the opinion that they have seen me before and are happy to let me keep walking... "we've told our bosses the staff don't do this, but they don't want to upset [the supermarket chain] as its a very valuable contract"(!)

 

[some bloke]

You may be able to improve your situation (and help others further).

I then received a letter from the court themselves who had decided to withdraw the case

I'm not clear what's happened - the wording may be significant. Could you please upload an image with identifying details removed?

If you can establish why the case was dropped, you might reduce the fear of it happening again. Evidence of TfL's system failing might be helpful - when you use a bus, you could then just check the light worked and not need to ask the driver. If TfL apologise, you may be in a stronger position for potential future disputes than if this incident hadn't happened.

If the system failed, I would be asking TfL for the solicitor's fees.

Maybe, depending on what the court letter says, a subject access request would help establish what happened in the TfL system.

Perhaps they’ve relaxed their policy? Or they could see it was a genuine mistake, a lot of cases on here tend to be forged passes etc..

Even if it was a genuine mistake, that offence would still have been committed if someone didn't pay the fare - the offence is simply non-payment.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1990/1020/regulation/7/made

That makes it more likely something else was the reason for the case being dropped.

If I was to receive a criminal record it would ruin my career

Could you please explain why you say that? As this offence is automatic - not involving intent to avoid a fare - it isn't clear why it should have any significant impact on employment. Solicitors may not be good at explaining that (or may, perhaps correctly, think someone is happy to pay to remove the worry even if there's no real risk to their career).

 

[johncrossley]

Could you please explain why you say that? As this offence is automatic - not involving intent to avoid a fare - it isn't clear why it should have any significant impact on employment. Solicitors may not be good at explaining that (or may, perhaps correctly, think someone is happy to pay to remove the worry even if there's no real risk to their career).

Does such an offence affect visa applications?

 

[madjack]

Couple of thoughts, I have always found that Google Pay is updated immediately with details of my touch in (even if no amount is yet shown) which avoids the 'inspector arrives before details are shown on banking apps' problem.

Amazing, it works for me too.

Thanks, nice to learn something new

 

[worriedone8]

No way to know from the OP 's post if this is what happened / why the case was dropped. But if it were me I would be pursuing this by checking my card payment record etc - don't think we know if @worriedone8 used oyster or contactless bank card etc - and then if poss taking it further with TfL (or asking my solicitor to do so).

But of course I assume there is the possibility of a genuine fail to touch on/register to touch on by mistake - than then leaves you open to the accusation of travelling without a valid ticket.

I used Apple Pay. The letter literally just says the charge and ‘withdrawn’. Although it didn’t cross my mind it could be because TFL did something wrong, I just assumed I had a kind person in the CPS who read through the case and just thought it was not worth taking to court.

 

[worriedone8]

You may be able to improve your situation (and help others further).


I'm not clear what's happened - the wording may be significant. Could you please upload an image with identifying details removed?

If you can establish why the case was dropped, you might reduce the fear of it happening again. Evidence of TfL's system failing might be helpful - when you use a bus, you could then just check the light worked and not need to ask the driver. If TfL apologise, you may be in a stronger position for potential future disputes than if this incident hadn't happened.

If the system failed, I would be asking TfL for the solicitor's fees.

Maybe, depending on what the court letter says, a subject access request would help establish what happened in the TfL system.


Even if it was a genuine mistake, that offence would still have been committed if someone didn't pay the fare - the offence is simply non-payment.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1990/1020/regulation/7/made

That makes it more likely something else was the reason for the case being dropped.


Could you please explain why you say that? As this offence is automatic - not involving intent to avoid a fare - it isn't clear why it should have any significant impact on employment. Solicitors may not be good at explaining that (or may, perhaps correctly, think someone is happy to pay to remove the worry even if there's no real risk to their career).

I don’t feel comfortable talking about where I work but there isn’t any room for criminal records.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Your TfL online account is usually updated within a few minutes but that might be too late if the bus inspector comes first. In a supermarket your bank account is updated immediately after payment and with many if not most banks you can set it up so that you get a notification on your phone after any payment. The payment should be visible as a 'pending' transaction in mobile banking.

I'll have to check my online TfL account next time I get on a bus.
My bank account certainly doesn't show any activity until overnight, sometimes a couple of days

 

[[.n]]

I'll have to check my online TfL account next time I get on a bus.
My bank account certainly doesn't show any activity until overnight, sometimes a couple of days

I use Samsung Pay/Wallet - and its shows me immediately what bus number I've tapped onto (and also Train stations) - certainly for TFL / First / go-ahead

 

[Surreytraveller]

I use Samsung Pay/Wallet - and its shows me immediately what bus number I've tapped onto (and also Train stations) - certainly for TFL / First / go-ahead

I used to use Google Pay, but there's no longer an easy way to switch NFC on and off, so I don't use it anymore

 

[some bloke]

Although it didn’t cross my mind it could be because TFL did something wrong, I just assumed I had a kind person in the CPS who read through the case and just thought it was not worth taking to court.

It would have been a private prosecution by TfL rather than a prosecution by the CPS.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/private-prosecutions

 

[[.n]]

I used to use Google Pay, but there's no longer an easy way to switch NFC on and off, so I don't use it anymore

Not sure about your phone but on mine (Samsung) - swipe from the top of the screen - NFC on/off is available immediately

 

[Surreytraveller]

Not sure about your phone but on mine (Samsung) - swipe from the top of the screen - NFC on/off is available immediately

Android. Used to be able to swipe down, and it was there immediately. But now you have to go through several menus to find it

 

[[.n]]

Android. Used to be able to swipe down, and it was there immediately. But now you have to go through several menus to find it

You should be able to change your menu settings for that

 

[Surreytraveller]

I'll have to check my online TfL account next time I get on a bus.
My bank account certainly doesn't show any activity until overnight, sometimes a couple of days

I got on a bus about 2 and a half hours ago, and its not showing yet in my online Oystercard account!

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You should be able to change your menu settings for that

I would hope so, but I've got no idea how to do it

 

[johncrossley]

I got on a bus about 2 and a half hours ago, and its not showing yet in my online Oystercard account!

I believe that data only shows up quickly in the account if you use contactless, and not an Oyster card. It certainly was like that years ago when contactless started.

 

[MikeWh]

I got on a bus about 2 and a half hours ago, and its not showing yet in my online Oystercard account!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2022 ==


I would hope so, but I've got no idea how to do it

Where are you looking? You won't find it under journey history. On your online dashboard there's a panel lower down called "Today's travel".

 

[Surreytraveller]

Where are you looking? You won't find it under journey history. On your online dashboard there's a panel lower down called "Today's travel".

I cannot see an online dashboard, or anything which says 'Todays travel'

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2022 ==

I cannot see an online dashboard, or anything which says 'Todays travel'

Forget, I've found it! Always the way after I respond! They don't make these things easy, do they?