TFL fare evasion: won my case!

[worriedone8]

Hi all.

I spent a lot of time sifting through the prosecution and fare threads the last few months but didn’t post myself. I felt it was only fair to contribute back for people who find themselves in a similar situation/those that are interested in rail prosecution cases. Especially those that are feeling their lives are being adversely impacted- there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Earlier this year, I moved to london for work. It was my second day and I boarded a bus to Westminster. I believed to have tapped in and was sat on the bus non the wiser. A ticket inspector came up to me, I tapped my card and she claimed I hadn’t paid. I was obviously very apologetic and offered to pay on the spot. I wasn’t offered a fine she just took my details, so I assumed I would receive a £40 fine in the post a few days later. I was pretty annoyed about this for the sake of £1.65 but obviously would have paid.

Anyway I get a letter from TFL saying I need to plead guilty or not guilty. I wrote an honest letter and pleaded not guilty. They came back with a single justice procedure notice saying I was charged with ‘contrary to the regulation 7 (2) (b) (I) of the Public Service Vehicles Regulations 1990 SL No. 1020. So I reached out for legal help at this point. If I was to receive a criminal record it would ruin my career+ I am only in my early twenties. My solicitor sent a letter to TFL + the court explaining my situation and then it was time to wait…

It took about three weeks, but I then received a letter from the court themselves who had decided to withdraw the case. I did not have to pay a penny to TFL !

Perhaps they’ve relaxed their policy? Or they could see it was a genuine mistake, a lot of cases on here tend to be forged passes etc..

Lesson learnt. I now stare at that green light and ask the bus driver to check it’s gone through (much to their annoyance… but I’m not going through all that again ever!)

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all.

I spent a lot of time sifting through the prosecution and fare threads the last few months but didn’t post myself. I felt it was only fair to contribute back for people who find themselves in a similar situation/those that are interested in rail prosecution cases. Especially those that are feeling their lives are being adversely impacted- there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Earlier this year, I moved to london for work. It was my second day and I boarded a bus to Westminster. I believed to have tapped in and was sat on the bus non the wiser. A ticket inspector came up to me, I tapped my card and she claimed I hadn’t paid. I was obviously very apologetic and offered to pay on the spot. I wasn’t offered a fine she just took my details, so I assumed I would receive a £40 fine in the post a few days later. I was pretty annoyed about this for the sake of £1.65 but obviously would have paid.

Anyway I get a letter from TFL saying I need to plead guilty or not guilty. I wrote an honest letter and pleaded not guilty. They came back with a single justice procedure notice saying I was charged with ‘contrary to the regulation 7 (2) (b) (I) of the Public Service Vehicles Regulations 1990 SL No. 1020. So I reached out for legal help at this point. If I was to receive a criminal record it would ruin my career+ I am only in my early twenties. My solicitor sent a letter to TFL + the court explaining my situation and then it was time to wait…

It took about three weeks, but I then received a letter from the court themselves who had decided to withdraw the case. I did not have to pay a penny to TFL !

Perhaps they’ve relaxed their policy? Or they could see it was a genuine mistake, a lot of cases on here tend to be forged passes etc..

Lesson learnt. I now stare at that green light and ask the bus driver to check it’s gone through (much to their annoyance… but I’m not going through all that again ever!)

Thanks for posting - it may be of help to future readers in same situation if you felt able to give an idea of the fee you paid to solicitors for their help (or even the name of the firm if you found them helpful). Fully understand if you don't want to do that of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, as I have had the same situation - I tapped in, got the beep and green light, and was alleged not to have done. The inspectors after talking to the driver believed me and issued a zero fare ticket without taking any details. I'm fairly sure I was actually charged when I checked my bank statement, so would have had that evidence had it gone to Court, though. I believe in my case it was that the driver had pulled onto stand from layover without having set up the journey properly.

If that wasn't the reason, there's a serious bug.

 

[MikeWh]

Interesting, as I have had the same situation - I tapped in, got the beep and green light, and was alleged not to have done. The inspectors after talking to the driver believed me and issued a zero fare ticket without taking any details. I'm fairly sure I was actually charged when I checked my bank statement, so would have had that evidence had it gone to Court, though. I believe in my case it was that the driver had pulled onto stand from layover without having set up the journey properly.

If that wasn't the reason, there's a serious bug.

If you enter at the start of the bus journey there is a chance that the new journey hasn't been properly initialised. Drivers aren't supposed to open the doors until everything is set up, but it sometimes happens. You will still get charged (unless it's a hopper or capped) but the card doesn't appear in the list downloaded to an inspector's device. You'll find the details on your journey history the next day, so if you have been issued a penalty fare or worse you will have evidence to counter it.

 

[Snow1964]

As a follow up, the problems seem to have made it to TfL Board

page 25 of report

Both Oyster and contactless saw increases this quarter, with complaints rising 153 per cent and 52 per cent, respectively. This, however, is largely due to more customers using these ticketing options. Oyster demand went up 94 per cent and contactless demand rose 179 per cent on the same quarter last year. We are closely monitoring demand in these areas to identify and address potential pain points

page 28

London Buses – bus validations – overall availability (%) 99.72%

System Information - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you enter at the start of the bus journey there is a chance that the new journey hasn't been properly initialised. Drivers aren't supposed to open the doors until everything is set up, but it sometimes happens. You will still get charged (unless it's a hopper or capped) but the card doesn't appear in the list downloaded to an inspector's device. You'll find the details on your journey history the next day, so if you have been issued a penalty fare or worse you will have evidence to counter it.

That is what happened, yes, and is quite a serious flaw, but like related issues on the mainline it will be revenue positive to TfL (as some people will just pay the PFs) so they won't fix it. Quite a serious flaw.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

That is what happened, yes, and is quite a serious flaw, but like related issues on the mainline it will be revenue positive to TfL (as some people will just pay the PFs) so they won't fix it. Quite a serious flaw.

Is Oyster more reliable?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is Oyster more reliable?

Presumably it would avoid this issue as the inspectors would be able to read from it that it was touched in?

 

[worriedone8]

Thanks for posting - it may be of help to future readers in same situation if you felt able to give an idea of the fee you paid to solicitors for their help (or even the name of the firm if you found them helpful). Fully understand if you don't want to do that of course.

Hi there. Sure, it was Manek Solicitors who I saw recommended on this forum. I paid £500 + £125 first consultation fee. A steep price but not as steep as other solicitors who I received quotes from. And worth it to not have a criminal record!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi there. Sure, it was Manek Solicitors who I saw recommended on this forum. I paid £500 + £125 first consultation fee. A steep price but not as steep as other solicitors who I received quotes from. And worth it to not have a criminal record!

Thanks for sharing this info - I think that would help people with various TfL cases.

I do hope this wan't a case as described above caused by bus driver not having initialized their set up at the point you got on the bus and touched in however, as that is an expensive legal fee to pay if the case was brought by TfL despite the failings of their own system / staff. But you perhaps have a good idea that this wasn't the case in your situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for sharing this info - I think that would help people with various TfL cases.

I do hope this wan't a case as described above caused by bus driver not having initialized their set up at the point you got on the bus and touched in however, as that is an expensive legal fee to pay if the case was brought by TfL despite the failings of their own system / staff. But you perhaps have a good idea that this wasn't the case in your situation.

It's extremely poor if inspectors don't check if this is the case when someone, unprompted, says they boarded at the terminus. And many don't - I had to argue the point before they would go and check with the driver.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

It's extremely poor if inspectors don't check if this is the case when someone, unprompted, says they boarded at the terminus. And many don't - I had to argue the point before they would go and check with the driver.

I suppose they have some kind of target to meet, and being able to issue a penalty to a polite non-agressive person is one less that they have to issue to a potentially agressive person. Definitely an incentive for them to ignore what you were saying.

 

[Mikw]

It's all kind of wrong being punished because something isn't initialised. 100 percent not the traveller's fault.

Leaves a sour taste in my mouth when you do everything right and still get threatened with legal action.

 

[johncrossley]

This can't be the end of it. The legal fees now need to be reclaimed from TfL.

For the rest of us, how can we prove that we touched in? Can we request a receipt from the driver?

 

[Lewlew]

I suppose they have some kind of target to meet, and being able to issue a penalty to a polite non-agressive person is one less that they have to issue to a potentially agressive person. Definitely an incentive for them to ignore what you were saying.

There is absolutely no “target to meet”! If someone doesn’t have a ticket/valid tap in then they will be reported.

Just like when people fail their driving test they will be told “they have to fail a certain amount of people” which is absolutely not true. If you’re good enough then you’ll pass.

 

[johncrossley]

There is absolutely no “target to meet”! If someone doesn’t have a ticket/valid tap in then they will be reported.

So how do you explain why the OP got reported? Surely disciplinary action needs to be taken against someone?

 

[Haywain]

It's all kind of wrong being punished because something isn't initialised. 100 percent not the traveller's fault.

Do you have anything to back up the assertion that this was what happened to the OP?

 

[johncrossley]

You can check on your contactless account to see if your touch in has been registered, but that usually takes about 10 minutes. No good if the inspector gets on before then.

 

[WesternLancer]

This can't be the end of it. The legal fees now need to be reclaimed from TfL.

For the rest of us, how can we prove that we touched in? Can we request a receipt from the driver?

No way to know from the OP 's post if this is what happened / why the case was dropped. But if it were me I would be pursuing this by checking my card payment record etc - don't think we know if @worriedone8 used oyster or contactless bank card etc - and then if poss taking it further with TfL (or asking my solicitor to do so).

But of course I assume there is the possibility of a genuine fail to touch on/register to touch on by mistake - than then leaves you open to the accusation of travelling without a valid ticket.

 

[johncrossley]

No way to know from the OP 's post if this is what happened / why the case was dropped. But if it were me I would be pursuing this by checking my card payment record etc - don't think we know if @worriedone8 used oyster or contactless bank card etc - and then if poss taking it further with TfL (or asking my solicitor to do so).

But of course I assume there is the possibility of a genuine fail to touch on/register to touch on by mistake - than then leaves you open to the accusation of travelling without a valid ticket.

I am really interested to know how we can prove we touched in *while we are on the bus*. The online account helps you after 10 minutes, but I want piece of mind straight away, before the inspector gets on.

 

[Mikw]

So how do you explain why the OP got reported? Surely disciplinary action needs to be taken against someone?

As we've heard, this scenario can happen.

 

[johncrossley]

As a follow up, the problems seem to have made it to TfL Board

page 25 of report


page 28

System Information - Modern Council

board.tfl.gov.uk

I can't read this. It says "Access denied".

 

[Snow1964]

I am really interested to know how we can prove we touched in *while we are on the bus*. The online account helps you after 10 minutes, but I want piece of mind straight away, before the inspector gets on.

At the moment the only way is to ask the driver for confirmation that it registered, and not walk down the bus until you get an answer. Ideally drivers would call back any passenger whose card failed to get a green light (but most can’t be bothered)

Not really a very satisfactory system, but really the problem is the tiny coloured LED lamp, if TfL had improved the display (or added more LEDs so more easy to check) then the problem wouldn’t exist.

The customer facing display (a tiny three colour LED) was never designed to be used for customer to validate if their bank card had taken (and is inconsistent with most contactless terminals where customer gets 4 green lights for successful tap). Ideally needs to be modified to 4 greens to confirm tap in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2022 ==

I can't read this. It says "Access denied".

TfL seem to have done something fishy, can still get into meeting agenda, but the supporting papers for agenda item 5 (which were linked) have been taken down.

Link to agenda in case revised papers for item 5 get added

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=173&MId=671&Ver=4

 

[johncrossley]

At the moment the only way is to ask the driver for confirmation that it registered, and not walk down the bus until you get an answer. Ideally drivers would call back any passenger whose card failed to get a green light (but most can’t be bothered)

Can the driver actually see on his ticket machine if the card was accepted? The conversation probably needs to be recorded in case the driver decides to deny that conversation actually happened when asked by the inspector.

Link to agenda in case revised papers for item 5 get added

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=173&MId=671&Ver=4

Thanks, I found it.

 

[WesternLancer]

I am really interested to know how we can prove we touched in *while we are on the bus*. The online account helps you after 10 minutes, but I want piece of mind straight away, before the inspector gets on.

Yes, not unreasonable - most people would not be bothered buy you might expect it to be a feature for anyone who did. Useful answer from @Snow1964

 

[357]

How does this work on bus routes with a loop at one end instead of a terminus?

For example, the 366 has a large single direction loop around an estate, so it is totally possible for someone to board the bus before the bus stop that's classified as the terminus, when in reality it's more of a "regulating point"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, not unreasonable - most people would not be bothered buy you might expect it to be a feature for anyone who did. Useful answer from @Snow1964

It's not unreasonable that the ticket machine shouldn't show a green light and give an OK bleep if it has not been configured correctly, either! This is a serious, serious design flaw if it is being used to determine whether to attempt prosecution.

I realise they are now old, but would hope that any forthcoming replacement might integrate with iBus such that once it reaches the terminus and "this bus terminates here" is announced, the touchpads are disabled and show a red light until such time as they are actually configured and ready to take fares for the next journey.

A short-term software workaround would be for whatever the inspectors use to consider that if a journey could be a "Hopper" tap but that tap wasn't recorded to consider that it is one because there could be no revenue loss as a result of assuming that. (The incorrect tap on the "previous journey" would trigger a Hopper fare). They would still need to take details (because they wouldn't know at that stage that it wasn't, as the ticket machines aren't online in real time) but the system could automatically resolve the issue and send a letter of confirmation that it was that "quirk".

 

[Graham H]

As a country yokel I actually went up to the smoke recently and used a bus for the first time in ages without being on a travel card. I am old enough to remember using red rovers to get around. Anyway, having researched the Noddy guide to bus travel I knew I needed a card to tap in, actually 2 cards as Mrs Yokel was with me and the system cant handle 2 people on one card can it ? I passed the card over the yellow bit and assumed that was it. Far too much background noise to know if something had beeped. Anyway, the driver noticed it hadnt worked and explained we needed to press harder on the pad, not just wave it as you do for most other contactless transactions. Still didnt hear a beep but a little green led did light up. I am guessing that with a less customer focussed driver I too could have ended up on the TFL naughty stair with a large bill.

 

[Surreytraveller]

This is the problem when you are given no evidence that you have paid. I often wonder if using the self-service checkouts at a supermarket and don't get a receipt where I stand?
Trouble with the TfL system is it your account doesn't get debited until during the night, so there's no immediate debit on your account to check online

 

[johncrossley]

This is the problem when you are given no evidence that you have paid. I often wonder if using the self-service checkouts at a supermarket and don't get a receipt where I stand?
Trouble with the TfL system is it your account doesn't get debited until during the night, so there's no immediate debit on your account to check online

Your TfL online account is usually updated within a few minutes but that might be too late if the bus inspector comes first. In a supermarket your bank account is updated immediately after payment and with many if not most banks you can set it up so that you get a notification on your phone after any payment. The payment should be visible as a 'pending' transaction in mobile banking.