TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[317 forever]

There is no reason the 330 needs a designated fleet. It never had one under deregulated Stagecoach operation, and I can't think of a comparable arrangement at any other Bee Network depot. Indeed there aren't enough Streetdecks for them to run the weekday 330 service on their own so there are always Enviro 400s on some boards as well.

I don't really understand why Stockport was given those Streetdecks in the first place to be honest. They could easily have gone to Hyde Road or Sharston, where they are standard, in exchange for some more E400s.

I think this is because, at the time of franchising, it was operated by Ashton. Ashton was won by Metroline, but in the end route 330 was allocated to Stockport which stayed with Stagecoach but the buses moved with it.

 

[Jacobdas]

Why is there so many of Middleton’s MMC out but no E400s?

 

[mayneway]

Tbh makes sence to change to one destination system so if more vehicles have Mobitec may aswell convert the rest that way it's easier all round

Hardly. When your buying hundreds of brand new buses and they all come with Hanover destination equipment as standard it’s absolutely crazy to then pay an outside contractor to rip the system out and retrofit a different system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2025 ==

This is another thing which can be done, if an operator has the link between the destination display and ticket machine installed, which automatically sets the displays, that same link will also automatically set the countdown if that feature is enabled in both the destination display setup, and the Ticketer portal config (the hidden config bit, set by Ticketer support).

TFGM seem very reluctant to pay Ticketer any more money for additional software.
One of the best things to come out of lockdown and Covid was the passenger count facility on the machine. Loads of us have asked for it to be brought back as a useful aid and they won’t pay for it.
Everything is done on the cheap.

 

[ACBest]

TFGM seem very reluctant to pay Ticketer any more money for additional software.
One of the best things to come out of lockdown and Covid was the passenger count facility on the machine. Loads of us have asked for it to be brought back as a useful aid and they won’t pay for it.
Everything is done on the cheap.

The ticket machine config part is free of charge - the only additional cost would be the cable running between the ticket machine and destination controller. I can’t remember how much that costs, but I do know that it’s very small in the context of the overall cost of the entire NSA system on the vehicle.

 

[py_megapixel]

Hardly. When your buying hundreds of brand new buses and they all come with Hanover destination equipment as standard it’s absolutely crazy to then pay an outside contractor to rip the system out and retrofit a different system.

Admittedly I'm not quite sure why so many TfGM spec buses have been ordered with Hanover kit - although perhaps the orders predate the decision to standardise on Mobitec. It absolutely is possible to spec buses from ADL, Volvo, Wright etc. with Mobitec kit; plenty of operators do it (Diamond and Metroline have even done it for Bee Network orders...)

Why is there so many of Middleton’s MMC out but no E400s?

I don't know if there's a specific reason for this specific day, but in general: A more modern engine burns less fuel, making it cheaper to operate; produces less noise and is better for the air quality. It also has more accessibility features and presents a generally better impression to the public. So on Sunday, when fewer buses are needed overall, why put out an old one when you have a new one that could go out in its place?

 

[Class 466]

Hardly. When your buying hundreds of brand new buses and they all come with Hanover destination equipment as standard it’s absolutely crazy to then pay an outside contractor to rip the system out and retrofit a different system.

Thought it was bad enough they were doing this to the 69/20 plates which already had compliant Screens/announcements - They're not seriously going to waste money doing it on the 24 plates too?

 

[toms]

Thought it was bad enough they were doing this to the 69/20 plates which already had compliant Screens/announcements - They're not seriously going to waste money doing it on the 24 plates too?

Is this actually happening, surely it’s going to take a lot of time and money to retrofit, 300+ new buses that have Hanover systems

 

[Andyh82]

Stagecoach 44901 and 44903 have arrived at Eccles

Are these to replace the old solos used on the 87?

 

[MCRTransitYT]

Are these to replace the old solos used on the 87?

In pretty sure they are, yes

 

[mayneway]

Thought it was bad enough they were doing this to the 69/20 plates which already had compliant Screens/announcements - They're not seriously going to waste money doing it on the 24 plates too?

Yes some have already been done including a couple of BZL’s.

 

[mattyharding]

Yes some have already been done including a couple of BZL’s.

which BZL's?

 

[mayneway]

which BZL's?

Couldn’t tell you, it was 3, possibly 4 weeks ago I drove it.

 

[mattyharding]

Not going to lie but I aint a fan of the new blinds being put up on the MMCs and other buses as they could be a bit confusing at termini as say you want to go from Oldham to Manchester you wont know which is the faster bus

 

[Dallamlad]

GMCA Bee Network Committee will be asked to approve the latest funding round for zero emission buses next week. Extract and link to the agenda below.

“Next Phase of Zero Emission Bus (ZEB) Investment

2.15. The Committee is requested to approve, in line with the current plan for the deployment of ZEBs, the drawdown of £59.1m of Integrated Settlement (CRSTS) ZEB funding to enable the procurement of circa 220 Zero Emission Buses that will replace diesel buses predominantly to be deployed in the Oldham and Hyde Road Large Franchises.

2.16. The £59.1m will fund the incremental cost difference between a new zero emission bus and a new Euro VI diesel vehicle.

2.17. These ZEBs will have a significantly positive impact on the environment and air quality, and they will contribute to both the ambition to fully decarbonise the bus fleet and support GM’s ambition to become carbon neutral by 2038. Passengers will also benefit from a modern fleet of buses that incorporate improved standards of passenger ambience and accessibility.

2.18. These ZEBs will represent c.13% of GM’s franchised bus fleet and, alongside other ZEBs currently in delivery/commissioning and those funded by JAQU Clean Air Plan funding, are anticipated to support an increase in ZEBS as a proportion of the GM franchised bus fleet to c.40% compared to the current level of 19%.”

URL unfurl="true"]https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s40997/BNC%2020251127%20Transport%20Infrastructure%20Pipeline.pdf[/URL]

 

[darylyates17]

GMCA Bee Network Committee will be asked to approve the latest funding round for zero emission buses next week. Extract and link to the agenda below.

“Next Phase of Zero Emission Bus (ZEB) Investment

2.15. The Committee is requested to approve, in line with the current plan for the deployment of ZEBs, the drawdown of £59.1m of Integrated Settlement (CRSTS) ZEB funding to enable the procurement of circa 220 Zero Emission Buses that will replace diesel buses predominantly to be deployed in the Oldham and Hyde Road Large Franchises.

2.16. The £59.1m will fund the incremental cost difference between a new zero emission bus and a new Euro VI diesel vehicle.

2.17. These ZEBs will have a significantly positive impact on the environment and air quality, and they will contribute to both the ambition to fully decarbonise the bus fleet and support GM’s ambition to become carbon neutral by 2038. Passengers will also benefit from a modern fleet of buses that incorporate improved standards of passenger ambience and accessibility.

2.18. These ZEBs will represent c.13% of GM’s franchised bus fleet and, alongside other ZEBs currently in delivery/commissioning and those funded by JAQU Clean Air Plan funding, are anticipated to support an increase in ZEBS as a proportion of the GM franchised bus fleet to c.40% compared to the current level of 19%.”

URL unfurl="true"]https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s40997/BNC%2020251127%20Transport%20Infrastructure%20Pipeline.pdf[/URL]

Suspect these will replace the B5LH & B9TLs at Oldham & Hyde Road if it goes ahead.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

GMCA Bee Network Committee will be asked to approve the latest funding round for zero emission buses next week. Extract and link to the agenda below.

“Next Phase of Zero Emission Bus (ZEB) Investment

2.15. The Committee is requested to approve, in line with the current plan for the deployment of ZEBs, the drawdown of £59.1m of Integrated Settlement (CRSTS) ZEB funding to enable the procurement of circa 220 Zero Emission Buses that will replace diesel buses predominantly to be deployed in the Oldham and Hyde Road Large Franchises.

2.16. The £59.1m will fund the incremental cost difference between a new zero emission bus and a new Euro VI diesel vehicle.

2.17. These ZEBs will have a significantly positive impact on the environment and air quality, and they will contribute to both the ambition to fully decarbonise the bus fleet and support GM’s ambition to become carbon neutral by 2038. Passengers will also benefit from a modern fleet of buses that incorporate improved standards of passenger ambience and accessibility.

2.18. These ZEBs will represent c.13% of GM’s franchised bus fleet and, alongside other ZEBs currently in delivery/commissioning and those funded by JAQU Clean Air Plan funding, are anticipated to support an increase in ZEBS as a proportion of the GM franchised bus fleet to c.40% compared to the current level of 19%.”

URL unfurl="true"]https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s40997/BNC%2020251127%20Transport%20Infrastructure%20Pipeline.pdf[/URL]

Do I recall that there are more new vehicles due in the meantime (I seem to recall there were some delayed until "early 2026")?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==

Suspect these will replace the B5LH & B9TLs at Oldham & Hyde Road if it goes ahead.

I'd be surprised if they didn't start making inroads into the Trident fleet at Stagecoach (by cascades) and the TEHs at Hyde Road too, with 220 being ordered.

 

[darylyates17]

Do I recall that there are more new vehicles due in the meantime (I seem to recall there were some delayed until "early 2026")?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==


I'd be surprised if they didn't start making inroads into the Trident fleet at Stagecoach (by cascades) and the TEHs at Hyde Road too, with 220 being ordered.

Yep but aren't Metroline keeping some TEHs for schools?, these and Middleton electrification should see of the classic E400s for sure.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Suspect these will replace the B5LH & B9TLs at Oldham & Hyde Road if it goes ahead.

Nah, those B9s will be the last diesel buses running in Manchester!!

 

[mancbus]

GMCA Bee Network Committee will be asked to approve the latest funding round for zero emission buses next week. Extract and link to the agenda below.

“Next Phase of Zero Emission Bus (ZEB) Investment

2.15. The Committee is requested to approve, in line with the current plan for the deployment of ZEBs, the drawdown of £59.1m of Integrated Settlement (CRSTS) ZEB funding to enable the procurement of circa 220 Zero Emission Buses that will replace diesel buses predominantly to be deployed in the Oldham and Hyde Road Large Franchises.

2.16. The £59.1m will fund the incremental cost difference between a new zero emission bus and a new Euro VI diesel vehicle.

2.17. These ZEBs will have a significantly positive impact on the environment and air quality, and they will contribute to both the ambition to fully decarbonise the bus fleet and support GM’s ambition to become carbon neutral by 2038. Passengers will also benefit from a modern fleet of buses that incorporate improved standards of passenger ambience and accessibility.

2.18. These ZEBs will represent c.13% of GM’s franchised bus fleet and, alongside other ZEBs currently in delivery/commissioning and those funded by JAQU Clean Air Plan funding, are anticipated to support an increase in ZEBS as a proportion of the GM franchised bus fleet to c.40% compared to the current level of 19%.”

URL unfurl="true"]https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s40997/BNC%2020251127%20Transport%20Infrastructure%20Pipeline.pdf[/URL]

Apparently Sharston isn’t getting new EVs because it still has a DC substation which only works for the BYDs but to have new EVs it needs an AC substation

 

[darylyates17]

Nah, those B9s will be the last diesel buses running in Manchester!!

Wouldn’t surprise me still good buses those despite their age and appearance.

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure why but looks like Oldham Depot have had problems today with their charges as quite a number of mainline duties were substituted with E300s giving them a run out on services they don't normally see service on including 17s, 18s and 409s. Recently E300s have been sighted on 59, 83 & 84s so obviously a shortage of Electrics.

I'm wondering if the cold weather is having a problem with the charge points.

 

[47550]

Not to sure why but looks like Oldham Depot have had problems today with their charges as quite a number of mainline duties were substituted with E300s giving them a run out on services they don't normally see service on including 17s, 18s and 409s. Recently E300s have been sighted on 59, 83 & 84s so obviously a shortage of Electrics.

I'm wondering if the cold weather is having a problem with the charge points.

The range on the electrics will be much lower on very cold days like today so I’m guessing that’s the reason. Only 7 out of Oldham’s 85 electrics didn’t make it out at all today (according to bustimes) which is probably fairly average. So my guess is that electrics were swopped out at some stage from their normal rostas when the range was running low.

 

[mayneway]

Not to sure why but looks like Oldham Depot have had problems today with their charges as quite a number of mainline duties were substituted with E300s giving them a run out on services they don't normally see service on including 17s, 18s and 409s. Recently E300s have been sighted on 59, 83 & 84s so obviously a shortage of Electrics.

I'm wondering if the cold weather is having a problem with the charge points.

E300 also on the 409 the other night!

Metroline were having the same issues. The buses just don’t hold their charge as long when it’s cold and take longer to charge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2025 ==

Nah, those B9s will be the last diesel buses running in Manchester!!

They should have painted them yellow during the first Tranche starting. They have certainly had their monies worth out of the old girls.

 

[Leyland Bus]

E300 also on the 409 the other night!

Metroline were having the same issues. The buses just don’t hold their charge as long when it’s cold and take longer to charge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2025 ==


They should have painted them yellow during the first Tranche starting. They have certainly had their monies worth out of the old girls.

It was mooted and indeed I saw the plans for them as we were going to do some here...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nah, those B9s will be the last diesel buses running in Manchester!!

Come the nuclear apocalypse those things will still be chugging around without a care in the world!

I'm wondering if the cold weather is having a problem with the charge points.

You don't get as much juice out of a battery when it is cold. I suspect that the cold weather means they're having to pull the electrics back to the depot for a charge.

Cold weather affects diesel buses the same, fuel consumption drops markedly, but it is a bit quicker and easier to top a diesel bus up.

 

[mattyharding]

What buses would you like to see as part of this 220 new buses, For me I would like to see BZLs, E400 EVs and maybe even some Yutong's

 

[MCRTransitYT]

I think Oldham will definitely get E400 EVs, especially with this gap in the fleet numbering scheme which could be used for Oldham

 

[py_megapixel]

I think Oldham will definitely get E400 EVs, especially with this gap in the fleet numbering scheme which could be used for Oldham

There are exactly enough free numbers there for the current E400 EVs at Hyde Road (Metroline), so I think it's more likely the gap was left to make sure there would be enough room in case TfGM had ended up allocating that whole order to Stagecoach depots. (Were some originally earmarked for Queens Road, perhaps?)

I agree more EVs for Oldham seems likely, given its ageing fleet of diesels. But the decision of what type to order will be based on many factors - perhaps which manufacturers offer the most favourable terms; perhaps existing data on which vehicles have proven most reliable/economical to operate; perhaps subjective feedback from drivers/passengers/maintenance teams; perhaps what makes most sense for commonality with the rest of the fleet in the depot. But surely not what fits most neatly into the fleet numbering scheme!

 

[Class 466]

I think Oldham will definitely get E400 EVs, especially with this gap in the fleet numbering scheme which could be used for Oldham

The gap was for the Enviro 400EVs that were diverted to Metroline.

 

[M60lad]

What's the reason why Enviro 400EVs went to Metroline? I was quite surprised to be honest that they didn't get a whole fleet of BZLs at the time