SWT 158 & 159 Refurbishments

[BestWestern]

Retaining the 158/159 is, in my humble opinion, very good news. Replacement stuff is highly unlikely to be anywhere near as pleasant to travel on.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

In Stagecoach's bid for SWR it did have a complete replacement of the 158/159 fleet with bi mode units.

Is it possible that First/MTR might still do the same eventually and might/have issued an ITT?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it possible that First/MTR might still do the same eventually and might/have issued an ITT?

But not mention it in their PR for the new franchise? You are clutching at straws.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

But not mention it in their PR for the new franchise? You are clutching at straws.

It was mentioned in another thread that we're not told about ITTs in general, unless someone is a part of whatever team at First/MTR that would deal with ITTs they can't say one way or the other whether a ITT has or will be issued.

For all we know they could have issued one or be planning to issue one but we've no way to know one way or the other

 

[swt_passenger]

It was mentioned in another thread that we're not told about ITTs in general, unless someone is a part of whatever team at First/MTR that would deal with ITTs they can't say one way or the other whether a ITT has or will be issued.

For all we know they could have issued one or be planning to issue one but we've no way to know one way or the other

What I'm saying is that IF they intended to replace the 158/159 fleet it would have been announced as one of their plans, and probably emphasised in the DfT announcement. It hasn't been, has it?

The question of an ITT or not is a side issue.

 

[CosherB]

It was mentioned in another thread that we're not told about ITTs in general, unless someone is a part of whatever team at First/MTR that would deal with ITTs they can't say one way or the other whether a ITT has or will be issued.

For all we know they could have issued one or be planning to issue one but we've no way to know one way or the other

Gibberish. Try and think through what you're trying to say before engaging the keyboard.

Quality, not quantity .....

 

[Suraggu]

First/MTR have a franchise commitment to keep the Class 158/159 including a full refurbishment with 6% increase in seating (wave goodbye to the original seating).

These will not be replaced until at least the next franchise.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Gibberish. Try and think through what you're trying to say before engaging the keyboard.

Quality, not quantity .....

Do you have inside info then?:roll:

First/MTR have a franchise commitment to keep the Class 158/159 including a full refurbishment with 6% increase in seating (wave goodbye to the original seating).

These will not be replaced until at least the next franchise.

Doesn't mean to say that they will, there's nothing to stop them having talks with the DfT about replacing the 158s/159s if they wanted to and with the DMU shortages (especially coming up in Wales), there's probably a good chance that some at First/MTR and/or the DfT will look into bi-modes to replace the 158s/159s

 

[D365]

Do you have inside info then?:roll:

Do you?

 

[3141]

Do you have inside info then?:roll:



Doesn't mean to say that they will, there's nothing to stop them having talks with the DfT about replacing the 158s/159s if they wanted to and with the DMU shortages (especially coming up in Wales), there's probably a good chance that some at First/MTR and/or the DfT will look into bi-modes to replace the 158s/159s

Anything is possible, but this is a 7-year franchise, and during the first three years and 4 months First/MTR are going to be pretty busy getting 90 new trains into service, which they are supposed to achieve by the end of 2020. During the second half of the franchise they are most likely to want to concentrate on getting the most out of their planned investment, in order to generate the income they need to pay the premiums they've contracted for.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do you?

Nope. Don't and have never worked for SWTs. First/MTR might not be allowed to say anything atm due to purdah

 

[swt_passenger]

Doesn't mean to say that they will, there's nothing to stop them having talks with the DfT about replacing the 158s/159s if they wanted to and with the DMU shortages (especially coming up in Wales), there's probably a good chance that some at First/MTR and/or the DfT will look into bi-modes to replace the 158s/159s

Why do you think there is 'probably a good chance'?

It wasn't a requirement of the franchise spec, i sugggest it is far more likely they've decided that the DMU fleet will last at least until the next franchise change; and DFT will have been happy to agree.

 

[D365]

The Class 158/159 fleet apeears to be very suited for their operations on SWT. Why would that be changed? If new/converted diesels are needed, order them for Wales etc.

 

[43074]

Doesn't mean to say that they will, there's nothing to stop them having talks with the DfT about replacing the 158s/159s if they wanted to and with the DMU shortages (especially coming up in Wales), there's probably a good chance that some at First/MTR and/or the DfT will look into bi-modes to replace the 158s/159s

No, they won't, end of.

 

[Suraggu]

Hi indeed 158884 is back she arrived on Friday with 158885 due to go Tuesday. She has come back in the revised livery same as the others, first MTR will not change anything till august but have heard in the grapevine it could involve just wrapping them for now also starting this month our 159s are heading down to Bournemouth one by one for delap where they are preparing them for the hand franchise change i.e. Touching up paint, dents etc. We have also been told that starting this month they are going to start getting debranded and the stagecoach swoosh will be coming off. The USB mod will be done after the 444, 450s have had there's and are looking to be done by 2020 so no real hurry.

What has gone in 158885's place as its still in traffic?
Or was the move postponed as being short a 159 over the incident with 1L03 on the 6th?

 

[DelW]

The Class 158/159 fleet apeears to be very suited for their operations on SWT. Why would that be changed? If new/converted diesels are needed, order them for Wales etc.

And as depotdriver mentioned above, Salisbury has built up a very good reputation for the way they maintain the 159 fleet, regularly winning reliability awards ahead of much newer fleets.

I just hope that if the refurb does involve new seating, they don't cut the legroom too much. The airline seating in 450s can be quite uncomfortable in that respect.

 

[CosherB]

Doesn't mean to say that they will, there's nothing to stop them having talks with the DfT about replacing the 158s/159s if they wanted to and with the DMU shortages (especially coming up in Wales), there's probably a good chance that some at First/MTR and/or the DfT will look into bi-modes to replace the 158s/159s

Clearly you're the man/woman in the know then, if you reckon that perfectly good 158s/159s could be replaced with no franchise commitment to do so? :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR had no franchise commitment to replace the West of England HSTs, I believe, but are doing?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Clearly you're the man/woman in the know then, if you reckon that perfectly good 158s/159s could be replaced with no franchise commitment to do so? :roll:

The same can be said of the 455s, they're perfectly good units which are being replaced. Same again with the 458s

 

[CosherB]

GWR had no franchise commitment to replace the West of England HSTs, I believe, but are doing?

But surely having a uniform fleet of 80X makes sense for GWR, rather than hanging onto a time served mini-fleet of HSTs?

 

[swt_passenger]

The same can be said of the 455s, they're perfectly good units which are being replaced. Same again with the 458s

As has been explained before, there is however a distinct section in the ITT all about increasing standing capacity and reducing dwell times of metro stock that bidders were expected to take into account. It affected the 455s, the 458s, and even the 707s (which was something of a surprise at the time). It didn't exactly require replacement, but it definitely described a problem that DfT wanted fixing. (To summarise, the DfT wanted to increase standing capacity from 3 to the 4 per sq m expected of modern metro units.)

THAT will be why First Group chose the option of replacing the suburban fleets.

There was no equivalent discussion of the DMU fleet, and as I said already, there has been no indication whatsoever that First Group intend to sneak it in later without publicity. I suggest you are flogging a dead horse on this subject.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There was no equivalent discussion of the DMU fleet, and as I said already, there has been no indication whatsoever that First Group intend to sneak it in later without publicity. I suggest you are flogging a dead horse on this subject.

Whether a train gets refurbished means nothing, if however many millions was spend on retractioning the 455s. The conversion of the 460s to 458s and they're still getting replaced. The 458s are perfectly suited for the routes they are used on and the Reading line isn't a metro route.

None of us know if a ITT process has happened or might happen or even be happening. I doubt that they would go public until a contract has been signed

 

[43074]

The same can be said of the 455s, they're perfectly good units which are being replaced. Same again with the 458s

The 455s will be 38 years old by 2020, and they are inadequate for the numbers of people using them. As for the 458s, they're a microfleet of 36 units (there are 127 450s, 91 455s etc) and have a mixed reliability record, to an extent replacing them makes sense.

 

[43074]

None of us know if a ITT process has happened or might happen or even be happening. I doubt that they would go public until a contract has been signed

It would have been announced when the franchise was awarded.

 

[D365]

None of us know if a ITT process has happened or might happen or even be happening.

Doesn't stop you speculating clearly.

And obviously when the majority Class 455/456 fleet is being replaced it makes sense to replace the smaller fleets of newer units for consistency, as is being done over at Greater Anglia.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It would have been announced when the franchise was awarded.

Would they really have issued an ITT before they'd got it confirmed that they'd won the franchise:roll:

 

[swt_passenger]

Would they really have issued an ITT before they'd got it confirmed that they'd won the franchise:roll:

It's already been explained that they don't have to issue ITTs at all, but also that if they want they can issue an ITT confidentially before contract award. I think I even quoted part of the ITT some months ago that requires them to inform DFT of their rolling stock plans, how would they do that without discussing new stock plans with the ROSCOs and manufacturers?

I therefore think you are either being argumentative for the sake of it, or that you intentionally don't bother reading replies to some of your many questions.

 

[BestWestern]

GWR had no franchise commitment to replace the West of England HSTs, I believe, but are doing?

GWR considered refurbishment and retention of HSTs for the westcountry. The general understanding is that the costs, particularly of power door fitment, meant that new trains were deemed a better option. There is, however, a suggestion that had the 'Scotrail' modidification of sliding rather than plug doors been available at the time, the reduced costings would have tipped the balance and the HSTs would have stayed. Those that do remain for short 'West' local workings will have sliding doors. The 'Chiltern' style of MK3 power doors is enormously expensive.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

how would they do that without discussing new stock plans with the ROSCOs and manufacturers?

They can easily have done that or be doing that already, unless they decide to go public we will never know

 

[CosherB]

They can easily have done that or be doing that already, unless they decide to go public we will never know

Please read what everyone is spending time and effort to write above, in response to your somewhat 'blue sky' thinking.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"

-- Carl Sagan, Astronomer
-- Donald Rumsfeld, Former US Secretary of Defense