Suicide on the Railways

[455driver]

Do you class those suicides as selfish?

If it affects other peoples lives, yes.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

If it affects other peoples lives, yes.

If people are driven by an overwhelming distress or terror then their actions aren't going to be rational.
If you were in the twin towers would you have burned to death or would you have jumped - in jumping you may well end up killing someone on the ground who had a chance of surviving while you had none.

 

[455driver]

If people are driven by an overwhelming distress or terror then their actions aren't going to be rational.
If you were in the twin towers would you have burned to death or would you have jumped - in jumping you may well end up killing someone on the ground who had a chance of surviving while you had none.

I answered this just now but it has been deleted so cant be bothered to do it again.


Now is this an answer?

 

[AlterEgo]

I answered this just now but it has been deleted so cant be bothered to do it again.


Now is this an answer?

I'm not sure if your repeated and deliberate flippancy is some kind of coping mechanism for having undergone some trauma yourself.

If it is, you have my sympathy.

 

[455driver]

I'm not sure if your repeated and deliberate flippancy is some kind of coping mechanism for having undergone some trauma yourself.

If it is, you have my sympathy.

There is something in that revolving around a divorce, not seeing my kids, child support agency taking 3/4 of my wages, father having incurable lung cancer, me working up to 80 hours a week, not being able to pay the rent never mind the bills (think thats about it), a car exhaust and a hose pipe.

you can work the rest out yourself, that was over 20 years ago and you know that old saying "what doesnt kill you makes you stronger" well its actually true.

 

[asylumxl]

There is something in that revolving around a divorce, not seeing my kids, child support agency taking 3/4 of my wages, father having incurable lung cancer, me working up to 80 hours a week, not being able to pay the rent never mind the bills (think thats about it), a car exhaust and a hose pipe.



you can work the rest out yourself, that was over 20 years ago and you know that old saying "what doesnt kill you makes you stronger" well its actually true.

HERE HERE!

Glad somebody came to the same conclusion as me.

 

[tony_mac]

The only way to prevent people .... It will not stop people from killing themselves, but merely force them to adopt other methods.

In fact, there are many things that can be done, and are done, that actually make a huge difference. I've put some links below for additional information, but the statistics show that reducing one method of suicide definitely does lead to reducing overall suicide figures.

One thing that is known to make a big difference is the way that suicides are reported and discussed.
I think we should remember that there will be vulnerable people reading this thread, and our words here can make a difference - just a poster may be enough to prompt somebody to go and get treatment for their depression, and lead to a different outcome somewhere down the line.

http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/what-speak-us-about/i-want-kill-myself

http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Samaritans-ReducingSuicideTrain.pdf

http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/en/426.pdf
http://www.suicide.org/media-guidelines-for-suicide.html

 

[SPADTrap]

If people are driven by an overwhelming distress or terror then their actions aren't going to be rational.
If you were in the twin towers would you have burned to death or would you have jumped - in jumping you may well end up killing someone on the ground who had a chance of surviving while you had none.

You think you can answer that? I don't think you or me can even begin to slightly understand that decision. Really bad example my friend. Others could just as hypothetically be killed as a result of an individuals suicide attempt...

I know a driver who never worked again after a suicide. He returned to his family a very different man, for the worse. I know the individuals actions were not rational but I feel it was unfair to involve the driver in such an 'intimate' way in how he chose to end it all. No amount of 'PC' feeling sorry or like we should pretend we understand the rational behind it will change that, and I don't apologise for it. Lack of rational may mean the individual isn't thinking about those affected, but doesn't mean they aren't...it's a tough one, maybe 'selfish' isn't the right word, but it's certainly something similar.

Maybe I'll change when it happens to me, who knows.

 

[radamfi]

Does it really make any difference whether someone who commits suicide is 'selfish' or indeed 'bad' (by whatever definition you choose to define 'bad')? The person is dead anyway so cannot be punished. The priority clearly has to be preventing people getting depressed in the first place. If people get depressed, that is a failure of society and/or scientific research. Eradicating depression and sadness in general would mean that all other problems, for example economic problems, would no longer matter.

 

[SPADTrap]

Does it really make any difference whether someone who commits suicide is 'selfish' or indeed 'bad' (by whatever definition you choose to define 'bad')? The person is dead anyway so cannot be punished. The priority clearly has to be preventing people getting depressed in the first place. If people get depressed, that is a failure of society and/or scientific research. Eradicating depression and sadness in general would mean that all other problems, for example economic problems, would no longer matter.

About as realistic as saying we can eradicate starvation, although what you say is probably correct.

Well of course they can't be punished. They achieved their tragic goal. Forget the poor soul at the front of the train who are just doing their job. I'm not sure what we can do to prevent it however...beyond me I'm afraid.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not convinced that depression can't be prevented, or at least cured. Obviously we currently have anti-depressants which help for some people. Future advances in neuroscience may well enable brains to be 're-programmed' to remove the tendencies that make some people get depression.

 

[SPADTrap]

I'm not convinced that depression can't be prevented, or at least cured. Obviously we currently have anti-depressants which help for some people. Future advances in neuroscience may well enable brains to be 're-programmed' to remove the tendencies that make some people get depression.

Sounds very interesting, again beyond me but I sincerely hope these advances happen sooner rather than later! We certainly do not know enough on the subject!

 

[D1009]

I think we should remember that there will be vulnerable people reading this thread, and our words here can make a difference - just a poster may be enough to prompt somebody to go and get treatment for their depression, and lead to a different outcome somewhere down the line.

Or alternatively push them over the final ledge, so we should be careful.

 

[stuartmoss]

I was told the other week that if a driver had three such incidents, he / she could retire on a full wage....from what I've read here, that does not seem to be the case. Can anyone shed any further light on this? I was told this by a member of staff on my last East Coast journey, which was delayed by a suicide at Adwick.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Complete and utter crap.

 

[Aubrey4444]

I was told the other week that if a driver had three such incidents, he / she could retire on a full wage....from what I've read here, that does not seem to be the case. Can anyone shed any further light on this? I was told this by a member of staff on my last East Coast journey, which was delayed by a suicide at Adwick.

I also heard that but i thought it was 5, but i also think its utter crap!

 

[the sniper]

I was told the other week that if a driver had three such incidents, he / she could retire on a full wage....from what I've read here, that does not seem to be the case. Can anyone shed any further light on this? I was told this by a member of staff on my last East Coast journey, which was delayed by a suicide at Adwick.

It's rubbish. That myth was the basis for a film about a London Underground driver some years ago.

 

[fergusjbend]

In fact, there are many things that can be done, and are done, that actually make a huge difference. I've put some links below for additional information, but the statistics show that reducing one method of suicide definitely does lead to reducing overall suicide figures.

One thing that is known to make a big difference is the way that suicides are reported and discussed.
I think we should remember that there will be vulnerable people reading this thread, and our words here can make a difference - just a poster may be enough to prompt somebody to go and get treatment for their depression, and lead to a different outcome somewhere down the line.

http://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help-you/what-speak-us-about/i-want-kill-myself

http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Samaritans-ReducingSuicideTrain.pdf

http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/en/426.pdf
http://www.suicide.org/media-guidelines-for-suicide.html

I'm sure Tony Mac is right that intervention at an individual level, and the work of bodies such as The Samaritans can make the difference between life and death, but it does not alter the overall number of suicides at any given time and place. This is determined by social, political and economic factors. This is shown by the present steep rise which tracks the economic recession.

Paradoxically, suicide tends to diminish at times of national emergencies such as during war-time when isolated (and suicide-prone) individuals are drawn into participation in society. This was noted as long ago as 1897 by the French sociologist Emile Durkheim.

Here endeth the lesson!

Fergus

 

[transmanche]

Some interesting (and quite moving) personal experiences here. So here's mine.

When I was younger, if my journey was disrupted by a 'one-under', I probably grumbled about the delay and impact it had on my day. So I guess I probably did think of suicides as selfish.

More recently, I suffered from depression. I was getting help, but it's a long battle. One day, a particularly bad day, I was at Newark North Gate station, waiting for my train. I was pacing up and down the platform, not really thinking of anything. And then a non-stopping train approached at high speed. In that split-second so many things went through my mind; including the thought that it would be so easy to finish it by just stepping off the platform.

Well as you can probably guess, I didn't. I turned around and found a bench to sit on. And I didn't move until my train arrived.

I wasn't thinking with any kind of rationality at the time. 'Selfish' to me suggests a positive decision to put oneself above the welfare of others. What I experienced wasn't that, it was an absence of awareness. It wasn't that I was reckless about what consequences my actions might have on the driver, passengers and other people. The fast thing approaching was a machine - I just wasn't consciously aware of any people at all.

Calling people with mental health issues 'selfish' makes about as much sense as calling people who die from cancer 'selfish'. No-one chooses it. It's something that happens to you. And being judgemental about people with depression really doesn't help; you may have someone in your life who's desperate to reach out for help - calling such people 'selfish' will only deter them from reaching out.

These site are worth checking out, if you're interested:
http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/
http://www.ruokday.com/

 

[455driver]

I was told the other week that if a driver had three such incidents,

Definitely true, in fact they made a film about it but based it on the underground.

As I saw it on telly it must be true!


That is actually a load of cr, um rubbish.

 

[SPADTrap]

Some interesting (and quite moving) personal experiences here. So here's mine.

When I was younger, if my journey was disrupted by a 'one-under', I probably grumbled about the delay and impact it had on my day. So I guess I probably did think of suicides as selfish.

More recently, I suffered from depression. I was getting help, but it's a long battle. One day, a particularly bad day, I was at Newark North Gate station, waiting for my train. I was pacing up and down the platform, not really thinking of anything. And then a non-stopping train approached at high speed. In that split-second so many things went through my mind; including the thought that it would be so easy to finish it by just stepping off the platform.

Well as you can probably guess, I didn't. I turned around and found a bench to sit on. And I didn't move until my train arrived.

I wasn't thinking with any kind of rationality at the time. 'Selfish' to me suggests a positive decision to put oneself above the welfare of others. What I experienced wasn't that, it was an absence of awareness. It wasn't that I was reckless about what consequences my actions might have on the driver, passengers and other people. The fast thing approaching was a machine - I just wasn't consciously aware of any people at all.

Calling people with mental health issues 'selfish' makes about as much sense as calling people who die from cancer 'selfish'. No-one chooses it. It's something that happens to you. And being judgemental about people with depression really doesn't help; you may have someone in your life who's desperate to reach out for help - calling such people 'selfish' will only deter them from reaching out.

These site are worth checking out, if you're interested:
http://www.time-to-change.org.uk/
http://www.ruokday.com/

Very glad you made the choice to sit down and think. That speaks volumes!

I'm convinced selfish isn't the word, very well explained, I think it's clear people like me simply cannot begin to comprehend the situation one must be in to consider that. I thank you for sharing your experiences with us, consider me that little more educated!

 

[HLW]

I'm convinced selfish isn't the word

I don't think the general public have any idea how much "collateral damage" is caused when people throw themselves under trains.

Someone on the verge of suicide isn't going to sit down and work all the consequences of their actions, I really don't think it's fair to use the word selfish.

 

[stuartmoss]

Definitely true, in fact they made a film about it but based it on the underground.

As I saw it on telly it must be true!


That is actually a load of cr, um rubbish.

Thanks to all for clearing that up, odd that an actual member of staff believes it though.

 

[SPADTrap]

I don't think the general public have any idea how much "collateral damage" is caused when people throw themselves under trains.

Someone on the verge of suicide isn't going to sit down and work all the consequences of their actions, I really don't think it's fair to use the word selfish.

Yeah I understand that, what I am saying though is despite that fact, there are consequences, very very deep ones, often on people who never even knew that individual. Selfish isn't the right word at all, I'm not sure what is.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I view it as a selfish act, but one that isn't committed with selfish intentions. I do find it bemusing when people say people throw themselves in front of trains for attention and to be selfish. I don't think there is a single person of sound mind on this earth that would jump in front of a high speed train. In a way, to make the decision of suicide by train, to me, proves the person doing it has a genuine 'desire' to be killed as 99.9% of the time there is no other outcome possible. As I've said in another thread, maybe if peoples attitudes changed there might just be less people put in a position where they feel the only way out is to kill themselves.

 

[Greeny]

Whilst working a night turn in the early 2000’s I had a call from Control at about 02:00 one morning advising me of a threatened suicide on the Bootle Branch. Apparently someone was standing on a bridge wall threatening to jump, and somebody was trying to talk them out of it, and that Merseyside Police wanted a stop on all trains. Which at that hour, on that line, was no trouble. Soon after, I had a CWR train wire out of the Sidings for Kirkdale which had a P Way Manager aboard. I told the Control and eventually the Police agreed to allow it to run provided it was cautioned and there was no use of the horn in the area which Control agreed to as did the Driver. So I cautioned it and allowed it on its way.

About 20 minutes later, the Control called back and asked who was on the train. I wasn’t sure what he meant so asked and he said who was travelling with the Train Crew, and he would get the Crew details from the TCS at Warrington. I realised what he was asking so told him the name of the Manager travelling with the train. Then, out of sheer curiosity I asked the Controller why, and what he told me disgusted me; apparently as the train was passing under the bridge (and whilst they were still trying to talk this character out of jumping) ‘somebody’ was hanging out of the locomotive shouting up “jump you b*stard”.

I don’t know what the outcome was but I would hope the Police didn’t let it pass. It was a disgraceful thing to shout in that situation.

 

[ainsworth74]

I have deleted a few posts that were going off-topic. I would ask that those contributing try and keep to the topic from now on.

Thanks

 

[passerby]

Hi, I hope it is ok to post this topic, I hope I am not being insensitive in posting this, I apologise if this is the case.

I would like to know if anyone here has been witness to a suicide on the Tube, I only ask because many years ago, I witnessed a death at Kings Cross St Pancras Underground, and I was recalling my experience with a friend recently, talking about dark places and the utter feeling of hopelessness, and it brought back some memories, the suicide at Kings Cross, which affected me greatly, I went to London at least once or twice a year for about 5 years at the time and the first few times I went back, I would not anywhere near a tube station, and when I finally plucked up the courage to go back on the Tube, I had to stand back to a point where I could hardly see the platform and people on it, people too close to the edge frightens the hell out of me. I think when it happened I just ran away in tears and pretty much onto the first train back home utterly speechless, devastated and upset

So what is others views on this, what did it have, if it is ok for me to ask.

Dear ReverendFozz,

I stumbled on this forum by co-incidence after Googling about a suspected suicide yesterday at my local station .
Your mail caught my eye and touched a nerve as some 5 years ago I also witnessed a man who I had been sat next to , suddenly get up , run and jump down onto to the track . All I remember is my daughters face and this woman on the platform screaming hysterically as the train approached . It wasn't a fast train but a freight train going just 20mph and time just seemed to go in slow motion , although it was really just about few seconds from impact. No time to think , run ,or hit the emergency alarm ( where ever it was ) although i do remember frantically waving and shouting at a guard on the far platform and shouting at my daughter and another young girl not to look !

The freight train took an age to stop and luckily stopped over the body . What i will always remember though, is the noise on impact !!!( i'm not going to go into details but if youv'e ever heard it you'll know what I mean.

I also think that although I had been spared the aftermath It was made actually worse by the fact I had contact with this man, I had seen his face and looked into his eyes and seen what i know now was obvious signs of distress and this did come back to haunt me for a while.

Worse was to follow, Unlike rail staff there was at the time no concern for witnesses and what they had seen, no comfort or a cup of tea and the BTP treated me more like a criminal than a witness as i had been sat next to him . I later lodged a complaint to BTP but dropped my formal complaint after speaking to an officer who took the time to tell apologise and then take time to counsell me. He also told me a little about the man, some back ground and that helped me enormously . I also trawled websites for self help groups for those that have witnessed suicides, but there were none . If it wasn't for this policeman I don't who I would have spoken to.

It also took me awhile to face going near a train station. Just hearing a train freaked me for awhile. It in fact it took me 6 months to catch one - and i managed this by arriving just before departing and not looking at any other person on the platform. Gradually I've come to terms with it . In fact I catch a train so often these days that I had stopped thinking about it although occasionally there will be a trigger and it does come flooding back as yesterday.

As for people thinking these people are selfish ...I truly believe they are beyond thinking rationally !! The man I saw "was not there" he was not aware!: he was in fact heading home to see his family after walking out of a mental hospital - the fact that he could just "walk out" even though he had been sectioned is entirely another matter!

 

[tsr]

One of the incidents in which I have come closest to a suicide (or in this case an suspected attempted suicide) on the railways has, fortunately, not been anything to do with my own mental health/thoughts, nor did the situation result in death or injury, but it did make me think hard about the potential for such incidents and how easy (most unfortunately) it is to witness one.

I was at a reasonably major London station with some friends after covering some new track (in an enthusiasts' sense). We were waiting for a train to where we live and it became apparent that there was some cause for delay, as minor delays were gradually ticking up. With a couple of minutes to go before departure, a train was nowhere to be seen, and all trains at the station had mysteriously stopped.

It was then that we noticed a smartly-dressed middle-aged man with his feet hanging over the edge of the far end of the platform. What struck me was that he had a completely blank look on his face, as if he was totally calm and unaffected by the presence of the railway or anything/anyone else. He was in such a position - overhanging the track - that if one of the many trains through the station had passed by, including the one that should have arrived whilst he was standing there, he would easily have been - how shall I put it - "taken out", and more than likely killed. He was also on the "London" end of a Down platform - i.e. the area where the train would have been travelling fastest.

As we waited, it quickly became apparent that something was "not quite right at all" with this person, and, on closer inspection, we could also see a number of trains held at signals in the distance. From where we were standing, we could see the points were set and knew that other trains had cleared the sections (etc.) because we are very familiar with the services and the line. The situation rapidly turned from a dull wait in the drizzle to a serious incident, and was pretty scary.

It turned out that station staff had seen the gentleman and had done some very quick work in preventing trains from running through. We waited, and, weirdly, continued to watch - somehow, time really does stand still and we seemed paralysed from doing anything, which may have been for the best. In reality, we can only have been there for a minute or two, watching him on the edge of the platform. Unfortunately, there was nothing the (fairly few) staff could do for the passengers and could not move anyone off the platform, as they were frantically busy making radio calls in their office and observing the gentleman.

We were very lucky indeed that the gentleman then decided not to walk/jump on the tracks or try to act in any further way of danger to himself, but decided to approach the staff. To cut a further part of the story short, normal service then resumed, and I think the man was assisted by the BTP and escorted away. He certainly didn't get on the next train. I am very grateful that somehow he was able to overcome his difficulties in this way. I believe he was very close to getting hit by a train and it was only because services were stopped that he had long enough to decide not to. I am grateful to the staff at the station who were vigilant and then were sympathetic enough to lead him away.

I have never been quite so concerned for the safety of a passenger on the edge of a platform. This sort of thing certainly has made my friends and I more alert to the welfare of vulnerable people on the platform.

Unfortunately, you can very readily feel paralysed and feel unable to do anything. I was in a position where I was simply being an enthusiast that morning - I had no relevant equipment or means of communicating quickly with anyone in any position to help. If the staff had not held those trains and delayed journeys a little, I dread to think what would have happened to that person.