Strike ballot coming for Arriva Northern.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The RMT as well as Aslef wanted out of the EU, so that as an independant country free from the shackles of the EU both trade unions could then bring back the railways under public control.

Is the emboldened part of your posting yet another Socialist facet of the "Momentum" dream life?
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Northern regularly start talks for April pay changes in July, and rely on employee pressure to get it all done and dusted for a 'backdated' payout just before Christmas. Happens every single time without fail. Not this time.

You are referring to how matters were dealt with by the previous franchisee and it is not a matter "set in stone" that the status quo should continue with the new franchisee.

 

[Legzr1]

Or are these rail passenger not allowed a say in such matters that can impinge on their own employment...

In matters relating to disputes between unions representing private individuals against private TOCs, no.

There's a definitive line between passenger and shareholder/stakeholder.

Holding and voicing opinion is fine as long as you realise, as a passenger, in holds little weight in the grand scheme of negotiating-contract things.

That's the polite version
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So is the NHS but why should railway workers get pay rises at the tax payers expense when nurses (who sometimes have to work 12 hour overnight shifts) get below inflation increases?

Or like I already asked why should you get the pay rise when people who can't get jobs and are trying very hard to find work getting their benefits cut when they need them for essentials like bread opposed to a 2 week holiday in Australia?

One of the most obviously envious posts I've read in a long, long time.

Turn it around - why shouldn't nurses get the pay rises rail staff do? (ignoring the glaringly obvious flaw in your argument; private sector -vs- public sector).

Instead of wasting your time here:

A) Get the CV updated and go better your prospects
B) Lobby your MP to get franchising legislation changed to something that suits you and your fellow enthusiasts
C) Think of ways for those on minimum wage/below the poverty line to better their lot
D) Keep your nose out of negotiations that have nothing to do with you.

By the way, if you think 12 hour night shifts are the preserve of NHS employees then you know less than I gave you credit for (which, to be fair, wasn't much).

 

[FordFocus]

Is the emboldened part of your posting yet another Socialist facet of the "Momentum" dream life?

It's highly unusual for you to mention Socialism or Momentum in a potential industrial relations dispute

You are referring to how matters were dealt with by the previous franchisee and it is not a matter "set in stone" that the status quo should continue with the new franchisee.

I believe that the majority of the directors and senior management are still in their roles from the previous franchisee. Certainly the managing director transferred from Abellio to Arriva. So it's not like this is a new phenomenon that's occurred.

 

[northwichcat]

Again, why are you singling out train drivers here? These pay talks effect all of the company with the exception of senior management and directors. So from driver managers near to £50k down to train care cleaners on £15k .

It seems some Northern union members on here want to actively make a fuss about not being valued by Arriva but don't want to disclose any details but some saying they should be paid in line with other TOCs. ASLEF have decided to make pay levels for drivers public on their website so it's the only role that the public can compare salary levels between. Unless some provides more details about the offer then there's no much else to discuss.

Northern and other TOCs are of course going to receive public subsidy and if they didn't the railway in the North would fail, so on that basis on what your saying is that none of Northerns staff would receive a pay rise for the foreseeable future because they receive a public subsidy.

No I'm saying public funding is being rationed (and has been since 2010) and Northern employees can't presume they'll automatically get pay rises every year due to the level of public funding received.

Arriva made three times amount of money the previous financial year but dropped this year as they wrote off some money for a pension issue and changes to accounting if I recall. In 2017 they will have an improved Northern, XC new direct award, Chiltern making money from Oxford services, LOROL becoming 100% owned and the other rail sections so highly likely to make more profit.

So for the first year of the Northern franchise the parent company of Northern have very little money but may have quite a bit more for the second year of the franchise. Therefore maybe a 0% rise this year and 3% rise next year would be fair considering?
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I believe that the majority of the directors and senior management are still in their roles from the previous franchisee. Certainly the managing director transferred from Abellio to Arriva. So it's not like this is a new phenomenon that's occurred.

That doesn't mean what happened under Abellio & Serco will happen under Arriva. Abellio & Serco made up to £30m profit a year on the franchise due to DfT awarding it on a 'no growth' basis but the Arriva award allows for growth and doesn't allow for so much profit to be made from the franchise.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The RMT as well as Aslef wanted out of the EU, so that as an independant country free from the shackles of the EU both trade unions could then bring back the railways under public control.

I'm sure you and the union leaders know quite well the EU does not prevent the railway being under public control.
In any case, the railway is 90% under public control now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Holding and voicing opinion is fine as long as you realise, as a passenger, in holds little weight in the grand scheme of negotiating-contract things.

I am sure that all rail passengers, not the "enthusiasts" that are often cynically and disparagingly cited as examples by rail staff when they refuse to acknowledge that rail travel is a part of the daily life of fellow workers who do have livelihoods to support, will be utterly disheartened by this nonchalant attitude of so-called fellow members of the working classes...
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I believe that the majority of the directors and senior management are still in their roles from the previous franchisee. Certainly the managing director transferred from Abellio to Arriva. So it's not like this is a new phenomenon that's occurred.

Legally speaking, it is a new franchisee which was awarded the current franchise, as the previous joint franchisee relinquished such negotiating positions at the termination of the previous franchise.

 

[ComUtoR]

The bit you didn't highlight is

Although there was a pay freeze for two years (2011/2012 and 2012/2013)

Would the rail unions accept 0% for two years if they got above inflation increases in subsequent years?

I didn't highlight it because it wasn't significant in refuting your rather selective claim. However, I still posted it rather than hide it.

If there was a significant reason to accept a 0% in return for a guaranteed larger rise elsewhere then I don't see why not. They would still need to put it to their members and ballot regardless. The RMT at my place done something similar and one year accepted no rise but took a single one off payment instead. That kept the members happy as they did get a payment and it kept the TOC happy as further increases aren't compounded year on year.

As a Driver I have been offered 0.5% in the past and one year due to other factors on the table, we took a small cut in wages. In recent years we have had a decent rise for a change but we went down the 'league table' and are one of the lower paid TOCs.

If Northern Drivers and indeed their TOC want to be competitive then comparisons should be made within their industry, just like other industries compare wages and compete to entice and retain staff.

 

[scrapy]

Just to also get things into perspective this is just a strike ballot because Northern have said there will be no new talks. Most strike ballots regarding pay usually just result in talks resuming and even when action is called it probably goes ahead in less than 25% of cases as there is often a last minute deal, so we are quite a way from a definite strike at the moment I'd imagine.

 

[al78]

In matters relating to disputes between unions representing private individuals against private TOCs, no.

There's a definitive line between passenger and shareholder/stakeholder.

Holding and voicing opinion is fine as long as you realise, as a passenger, in holds little weight in the grand scheme of negotiating-contract things.

That's the polite version
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One of the most obviously envious posts I've read in a long, long time.

Turn it around - why shouldn't nurses get the pay rises rail staff do? (ignoring the glaringly obvious flaw in your argument; private sector -vs- public sector).

Instead of wasting your time here:

A) Get the CV updated and go better your prospects
B) Lobby your MP to get franchising legislation changed to something that suits you and your fellow enthusiasts
C) Think of ways for those on minimum wage/below the poverty line to better their lot
D) Keep your nose out of negotiations that have nothing to do with you.

By the way, if you think 12 hour night shifts are the preserve of NHS employees then you know less than I gave you credit for (which, to be fair, wasn't much).

And agaaaaaaaaain. And agaaaaaaaaain. The envy card gets played yet agaaaaaaaaain, any time someone even looks like they are questioning any morality of the neo-capitalist free market. :roll:

Then you follow with a great example of the just world fallacy. Superb, but sadly par for the course on forums like this.:roll:

And for your grand finale, you tell him to shut up, well, sorry, but he has as much right to voice an opinion as you, and if you don't like it, TOUGH, deal with it.:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just to also get things into perspective this is just a strike ballot because Northern have said there will be no new talks. Most strike ballots regarding pay usually just result in talks resuming and even when action is called it probably goes ahead in less than 25% of cases as there is often a last minute deal, so we are quite a way from a definite strike at the moment I'd imagine.

So a "strike ballot" is now said to be just a negotiating ploy and not what most would understand the meaning of that phrase to be?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

...You are referring to how matters were dealt with by the previous franchisee and it is not a matter "set in stone" that the status quo should continue with the new franchisee.

Oh yes, this is new Northern, where pay talks started in... erm.... Well, okay it was July... Oh and the latest communication with staff wasn't at all the same, basically stating that they'd... erm... 'like to pay us before Christmas, but the unions said no'.... So yeah, basically, totally different and not at all the same tactic yet again...... Though I grant you one difference this time round, we're not getting any back pay before Christmas.

 

[Legzr1]

Like fish in a barrel

 

[northwichcat]

One of the most obviously envious posts I've read in a long, long time.

Turn it around - why shouldn't nurses get the pay rises rail staff do? (ignoring the glaringly obvious flaw in your argument; private sector -vs- public sector).

Obviously you think the railways are fully privatised when they aren't and all health staff are public sector - wrong again.

Like I've already said multiple times the government is unwilling to provide enough funds for everyone to get good pay rises every year

D) Keep your nose out of negotiations that have nothing to do with you.

If you don't want your pay deal discussed on a public forum then get your colleagues to stop complaining on public forums. I'm under the impression Northern staff have their own exclusive forum. Train drivers complaining about pay on public forums never goes down well. Other less well paid rail staff get more sympathy though.

As you've got no idea what I do or what I earn how dare you tell me to do things to improve my career prospects. My response to that is be happy with what you have and if you don't like it then learn French and German and apply to work for Swiss railways.

By the way, if you think 12 hour night shifts are the preserve of NHS employees then you know less than I gave you credit for (which, to be fair, wasn't much).

So I'll listen to you about the NHS and not a nurse who works at a Manchester hospital who gets given overnight shifts lasting 12 hours when it's her turn? :roll:

 

[HH]

So a "strike ballot" is now said to be just a negotiating ploy and not what most would understand the meaning of that phrase to be?

Since when has that not been the case? It's in line with politicians making promises and, dare I say it, Popes being Catholic...

 

[LateThanNever]

Obviously you think the railways are fully privatised when they aren't and all health staff are public sector - wrong again.

Like I've already said multiple times the government is unwilling to provide enough funds for everyone to get good pay rises every year

Quite - the we and the government has a sovereign currency and it is a scandal that it doesn't do Quantitative Easing for the NHS rather than banks!

 

[driver_m]

Like fish in a barrel

I said I'd give it a day before the NHS card got played, I actually will take some satisfaction that at 1419 it was played. Same old, same old isn't it. We come on here and defend our right to want better pay and conditions. People say we're greedy, we're not looking at the big picture. The average wage gets thrown out and hey presto, it's popcorn time again in Railforumland.

Let's spell this out to some of you. I earn a lot of money. I get up at stupid o'clock for it, I put every effort into getting it right and better than the day before. I don't do average, I do excellent, day in, day out. I have to, there is no other option. It may look easy and physically, it bears no comparison to that of a steam driver. But mentally, the job is way more tougher than it ever was. Always being watched, always have to be 100% right without fail. However I work in the belief that one day, I may fall short, I will be extremely hard on myself if I do, an unforgiving CPS and BTP will be watching and will definitely not go easy on me. An unfriendly government thinks a better job can be done by a machine that's not invented and doesn't appreciate that I put a ridiculous amount of effort into performing at 100%. So to be clear, I think I earn and deserve my money.

I'm not alone, the vast majority of my colleagues in the cab do this job because they like it, they're good at it, a lot of you out there want it for yourself. We appreciate what we have, we'd like to be shown appreciation for the effort we put in. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[LateThanNever]

I said I'd give it a day before the NHS card got played, I actually will take some satisfaction that at 1419 it was played. Same old, same old isn't it. We come on here and defend our right to want better pay and conditions. People say we're greedy, we're not looking at the big picture. The average wage gets thrown out and hey presto, it's popcorn time again in Railforumland.

Let's spell this out to some of you. I earn a lot of money. I get up at stupid o'clock for it, I put every effort into getting it right and better than the day before. I don't do average, I do excellent, day in, day out. I have to, there is no other option. It may look easy and physically, it bears no comparison to that of a steam driver. But mentally, the job is way more tougher than it ever was. Always being watched, always have to be 100% right without fail. However I work in the belief that one day, I may fall short, I will be extremely hard on myself if I do, an unforgiving CPS and BTP will be watching and will definitely not go easy on me. An unfriendly government thinks a better job can be done by a machine that's not invented and doesn't appreciate that I put a ridiculous amount of effort into performing at 100%. So to be clear, I think I earn and deserve my money.

I'm not alone, the vast majority of my colleagues in the cab do this job because they like it, they're good at it, a lot of you out there want it for yourself. We appreciate what we have, we'd like to be shown appreciation for the effort we put in. Is that so hard to understand?

I think that is absolutely correct. The government thinks bankers at Goldman Sachs or whatever bank are fine to earn a fortune but train drivers cannot.
Others may like to discuss but I cannot understand it!

 

[whoosh]

Well said 'driver_m'!

 

[Chester1]

Quite - the we and the government has a sovereign currency and it is a scandal that it doesn't do Quantitative Easing for the NHS rather than banks!

That comment highlights that you don't know what quantative easing is. QE buys government debt reducing the amount available for pension funds to buy and therefore forced them to invest in other things such as providing more commericial loans and mortgages. The QE during the crash was perceived as giving the banks money because many did not increase other investments to the same extent as they cut their government debt purchases. The money (ie. Peoples savings etc) instead stayed on the balance sheets, increasing the banks capital buffers, making them much less likely to collaspe if they had to write off bad debt. But the facts are irrelevant to many people. As for spending more money on the NHS, I agree the NHS needs allot more spending. However, I am also aware that if the budget was doubled or trebled, after about a week people would start making "cut this to funs the NHS" comments.

In regards to pay and strikes, it is the business of people affected by them. That clearly includes passengers. Rail unions don't seem to be prepared for the reality that technology makes less and less jobs essential and that the Tories will break the unions over DOO, no matter what it takes. I don't like that (I am a unionised civil servant), but its clear from the last 30-35 years that if unions try to stop government policy rather than water it down and adapt it then most of the time they eventually get beaten. Just look at Northern, a huge number of its passengers have other viable (although less convenient) public transport options. Successful strikes require leverage and I don't think Northern staff have anywhere near enough to stop DOO and any long strikes against pay will cost them more than any extra pay would be.

 

[ComUtoR]

Rail unions don't seem to be prepared for the reality that technology makes less and less jobs essential

I have a technology clause in my contract. It basically states that any introduction of new technology will NOT result in an increase in pay. I wonder who my union is.....

 

[Carlisle]

I said I'd give it a day before the NHS card got played, I actually will take some satisfaction that at 1419 it was played.

Maybe or was the greedy fat cat toffee nosed bankers card played by the opposition first ?

 

[coxxy]

Yes maybe Aslef have rejected the offer but there are a lot more grades within Northern that just drivers...

lets remember there are also cleaners that are still only on around the 17k mark for working nights on a 40 hour week etc etc..

This argument is a much bigger argument than just a drivers pay.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like fish in a barrel

Now then, there's no need to describe rail passengers carried in a Class 142 Pacer in peak periods quite like that.....
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Maybe or was the greedy fat cat toffee nosed bankers card played by the opposition first ?

I often wonder if such similarly-worded double edged rude descriptions such as "Marxist inspired Momentum loving" can be also applied to rail union leaders...

 

[Paceman]

ASLEF don't know drivers' terms? Also according to the Office of National Statistics:



Pray tell us more.

What was RPI?

CPI tends to be the lower of the two measures and doesn't reflect the true cost of living.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What was RPI?

Can I suggest "Retail Price Index" (sometimes called "Retail Prices Index")

 

[Robertj21a]

I said I'd give it a day before the NHS card got played, I actually will take some satisfaction that at 1419 it was played. Same old, same old isn't it. We come on here and defend our right to want better pay and conditions. People say we're greedy, we're not looking at the big picture. The average wage gets thrown out and hey presto, it's popcorn time again in Railforumland.

Let's spell this out to some of you. I earn a lot of money. I get up at stupid o'clock for it, I put every effort into getting it right and better than the day before. I don't do average, I do excellent, day in, day out. I have to, there is no other option. It may look easy and physically, it bears no comparison to that of a steam driver. But mentally, the job is way more tougher than it ever was. Always being watched, always have to be 100% right without fail. However I work in the belief that one day, I may fall short, I will be extremely hard on myself if I do, an unforgiving CPS and BTP will be watching and will definitely not go easy on me. An unfriendly government thinks a better job can be done by a machine that's not invented and doesn't appreciate that I put a ridiculous amount of effort into performing at 100%. So to be clear, I think I earn and deserve my money.

I'm not alone, the vast majority of my colleagues in the cab do this job because they like it, they're good at it, a lot of you out there want it for yourself. We appreciate what we have, we'd like to be shown appreciation for the effort we put in. Is that so hard to understand?

Well said, I'm sure you're also typical of the vast majority of your colleagues.

I get frustrated by the jealous/envious arguments put out by rail staff (although I understand why they say it). In my own case, I'm not in the least jealous or envious, and wouldn't want the job anyway, but any comments I make are still just as likely to be taken as simply envy. It might help healthy discussion if rail staff stopped throwing out the same old terminology every time that anybody questions their actions.

 

[driver_m]

Well said, I'm sure you're also typical of the vast majority of your colleagues.

I get frustrated by the jealous/envious arguments put out by rail staff (although I understand why they say it). In my own case, I'm not in the least jealous or envious, and wouldn't want the job anyway, but any comments I make are still just as likely to be taken as simply envy. It might help healthy discussion if rail staff stopped throwing out the same old terminology every time that anybody questions their actions.

It's your right to ask awkward questions. Nothing wrong with a healthy discussion. It's just that too often, people will always go for the lazy comparison and we then get the stale, off repeated cliches that get repeated time and time again and both sides are guilty of that. I don't particularly care about bankers pay for instance, good luck to them if they can earn that. However, I believe that many of them lack a social awareness and conscience of people that are not in their bubble. That is what annoys me. I am to the surprise of no one, very left wing, but even I have been shocked at the number of right wing drivers that there actually are in the grade. I just wish that if we are going to talk about pay & conditions, we could actually use fact and not thought when discussing it. Very rare any non staff on here would mention the fairness or unfairness of being moved around from a spare turn for example.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Personally, I would consider RPI + 0.7% a good result.

Sadly, I have not been offered any pay rise at all this year

 

[lejog]

What was RPI?

CPI tends to be the lower of the two measures and doesn't reflect the true cost of living.

Measurement of inflation is indeed a very complex subject, but this hardly justifies your claim that a 0.9% inflation rate was inaccurate or that CPI doesn't reflect "the true cost of living". CPI is based on the geometric mean, rather than the arithmetic mean of RPI. I won't go into the pros and cons of using each of the three Pythagorean Means (harmonic, geometric and arithmetic) on a rail forum (I'm sure one look at that Wiki page would put 99% of forum readers off!). But the arithmetic mean is always the highest of the three and therefore tends to be used by those who wish to overstate the true figure. Geometric mean always gives the middle value of the three.

Of course as well as this CPI and RPI set out to measure different things.

 

[BestWestern]

So a "strike ballot" is now said to be just a negotiating ploy and not what most would understand the meaning of that phrase to be?

A strike ballot is exactly what it says on the tin. If the management of a company suddenly decide, on hearing of a ballot being called, that actually they can discuss matters after all, that is entirely down to them. You might ask why it is that the position can change so suddenly...