Strike ballot coming for Arriva Northern.

[Legzr1]

Just getting the popcorn ready as this will be fun.

Yes, always a laugh watching 'experts' sticking their noses in when it's neither wanted nor needed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, always a laugh watching 'experts' sticking their noses in when it's neither wanted nor needed.

As usual, the "them and us" brigade tend to forget that there are third parties involved in rail disputes such as the passengers who rely on train services to get them to work on time to ensure they can carry out their work functions.

Or are these rail passengers not allowed a say in such matters that can impinge on their own employment...

 

[XDM]

[QUOTE=wfrank;2783412. If you put up Northern wages,Southern drivers,tube drivers,GW drivers,South Eastern drivers etc who have to open and shut doors will want more to maintain their differential for extra work. Then when they get it, you will say Northern drivers deserve more. That is why some ASLEf drivers get over £56,000 a year for what a relative of mine says in 21 hours a week actually in the cab.



Drivers should get a lot more than the average wage because they have to be cool headed in an emergency & not everyone can be. But they shouldn't withhold productivity. What is the problem with doing the doors when otherwise you would be sitting fiddling your thumbs? Providing you have the right door watching equipment & cams & monitors these days are pretty smart. If drivers ban productivity it will add force to the mad joke that when two drivers meet there will be a strike!

 

[Carlisle]

Yes, always a laugh watching 'experts' sticking their noses in when it's neither wanted nor needed.

If you choose to resolve disputes with your employer behind closed doors without disrupting or continually threatening to disrupt train services, I'm sure most on here will be happy to shut up and leave you to it

 

[alastair]

Yes, always a laugh watching 'experts' sticking their noses in when it's neither wanted nor needed.

not wanted or needed by who?:roll:

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Was RMT by supporting Brexit thinking that in the longer term less migration will drive up their membership, wages and conditions amongst the home grown workforce

The RMT as well as Aslef wanted out of the EU, so that as an independant country free from the shackles of the EU both trade unions could then bring back the railways under public control.

 

[northwichcat]

The RMT as well as Aslef wanted out of the EU, so that as an independant country free from the shackles of the EU both trade unions could then bring back the railways under public control.

Even though EU legislation protects a lot of worker's rights and prevents a Conservative government from coming in and reversing employment legislation. :roll:

 

[Robertj21a]

Even though EU legislation protects a lot of worker's rights and prevents a Conservative government from coming in and reversing employment legislation. :roll:

??? - surely any government could reverse/amend employment legislation ?. It doesn't have to be just Conservatives.

 

[FordFocus]

Yes, always a laugh watching 'experts' sticking their noses in when it's neither wanted nor needed.

Same.

Bit early to be talking about pay talks. Thought they weren't even whispered about until March at the earliest. I did hear of a potential ballot from RMT over the DOO proposals that Northern have had to approach the unions about but there will be a lot of discussion to be had beforehand.

 

[Robertj21a]

Same.

Bit early to be talking about pay talks. Thought they weren't even whispered about until March at the earliest. I did hear of a potential ballot from RMT over the DOO proposals that Northern have had to approach the unions about but there will be a lot of discussion to be had beforehand.

It will be interesting to see *how* RMT approach this Northern DOO proposal - are they going to, yet again, make public statements that will never agree to any such proposal ? - if so, it gives the employer a ready-made excuse for not bothering with sensible discussions.

 

[FordFocus]

RMT I think indicated they were happy to do a Scotrail deal.

Northern stated in a meeting to the RMT that it was the government pushing towards DOO and Arriva have said it won't be easy to implement. Some senior management rumoured to be saying it was impossible because of union and infrastructure reasons. It would cost a lot to bring in with no real gain in the long run. Obviously Arriva have to make a token effort as it formed part of the ITT.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Never read such rubbish as what some people write on here.

You can tell many on here know absolutely nothing about working on the railway. Problem with loving trains is you can love them too much. You get into the mindset that you love them so much, You'd do the job for free. Well nothing is free, and just because the rest of the 'sadsacks' in this country have rolled over and died, does not mean everybody else who still have some self respect are going to do the same.

Northern staff are not on 32 hour weeks.

They are not paid £50,000 a year.

It makes me laugh. the "I haven't had a pay rise in years so why should you" mentality is why we live in a country full of cheap labour, labour laws being broken left, right, and centre. Zero hour contracts. and having to pay thousands to get your rights at tribunals.

Just because you love being in the race to the bottom, don't think others will automatically join in.

 

[northwichcat]

??? - surely any government could reverse/amend employment legislation ?. It doesn't have to be just Conservatives.

Yes but Labour have introduced a lot more legislation benefiting employees than the Conservatives have and it's some of the latter who have argued about some of it now being 'EU red tape' now that the EU prevents it being overturned.

 

[FordFocus]

Never read such rubbish as what some people write on here.

You can tell many on here know absolutely nothing about working on the railway. Problem with loving trains is you can love them too much. You get into the mindset that you love them so much, You'd do the job for free. Well nothing is free, and just because the rest of the 'sadsacks' in this country have rolled over and died, does not mean everybody else who still have some self respect are going to do the same.

Northern staff are not on 32 hour weeks.

They are not paid £50,000 a year.

It makes me laugh. the "I haven't had a pay rise in years so why should you" mentality is why we live in a country full of cheap labour, labour laws being broken left, right, and centre. Zero hour contracts. and having to pay thousands to get your rights at tribunals.

Just because you love being in the race to the bottom, don't think others will automatically join in.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Whilst politics has been mentioned I now see yet another Tory U-turn over the proposals by Theresa May(be) to put an employee representative in the boardrooms.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

It will be interesting to see *how* RMT approach this Northern DOO proposal - are they going to, yet again, make public statements that will never agree to any such proposal ? - if so, it gives the employer a ready-made excuse for not bothering with sensible discussions.

Perhaps if 'Arriva' truly valued their staff instead of insulting them, other proposals might get a fairer hearing.

Would they get away with this in their native Germany? Why are UK workers expected to accept their lot?

 

[northwichcat]

It makes me laugh. the "I haven't had a pay rise in years so why should you" mentality is why we live in a country full of cheap labour, labour laws being broken left, right, and centre. Zero hour contracts. and having to pay thousands to get your rights at tribunals.

Whether you like it or not the railways are privitised and unless they get grants from the government (which the unions keep saying they oppose) most of the TOCs are loss making and normally if you work for a loss making business you don't get a pay rise unless you move to another company or a lot of people are made redundant. So which option is it the unions want:

1. Taxpayers to pay a subsidy to fund the running of TOCs - effectively meaning railway employees are getting state benefits despite being in full time employment.
2. Widespread ticket office closures and DOO.
3. Nationalised railways which means rail employees become public sector employees and are unlikely to get above inflation pay rises unless there is a budget surplus.

?

I think they actually want
4. Nationalised railways with guaranteed RPI + 2% pay rises every year and no further DOO and a guarantee of no redundancies.
But that's never going to be on the table in the real world.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Whilst politics has been mentioned I now see yet another Tory U-turn over the proposals by Theresa May(be) to put an employee representative in the boardrooms.

She's no Thatcher is she. This lady is certainly for turning. Trouble I have is that she turns my stomach.

Don't worry though, she'll sort a good deal for Brexit. She has already promised Nissan a deal that is illegal under WTO rules. Be afraid, be very afraid.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps if 'Arriva' truly valued their staff instead of insulting them, other proposals might get a fairer hearing.

Would they get away with this in their native Germany? Why are UK workers expected to accept their lot?

Arriva are a business based in Sunderland with a German parent. The German parent are losing money and last year DB staff in Germany recently went on 9 strikes in 11 months - the longest industrial action in their history. You obviously want to come up with a lot of false information to make it sound like you have a much harder time than you really do.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Whether you like it or not the railways are privitised and unless they get grants from the government (which the unions keep saying they oppose) most of the TOCs are loss making and normally if you work for a loss making business you don't get a pay rise unless you move to another company or a lot of people are made redundant. So which option is it the unions want:

1. Taxpayers to pay a subsidy to fund the running of TOCs - effectively meaning railway employees are getting state benefits despite being in full time employment.
2. Widespread ticket office closures and DOO.
3. Nationalised railways which means rail employees become public sector employees and are unlikely to get above inflation pay rises unless there is a budget surplus.

?

I think they actually want
4. Nationalised railways with guaranteed RPI + 2% pay rises every year and no further DOO and a guarantee of no redundancies.
But that's never going to be on the table in the real world.

Tired old argument that is wheeled out over and over again. Usually by bosses or those who are jealous of what others have.

Tell you what. Lets get rid of the loss making railways. What do you think will happen to all those commuters who have been tempted and forced to work miles from home.
Railways are not just a business for profit and loss, they are an essential for the whole economy of the UK, and it is time some woke up and realised that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Arriva are a business based in Sunderland with a German parent. The German parent are losing money and last year DB staff in Germany recently went on 9 strikes in 11 months - the longest industrial action in their history. You obviously want to come up with a lot of false information to make it sound like you have a much harder time than you really do.

Oh tell me again and again. I must remember to sing company songs when I swipe on.

 

[northwichcat]

Railways are not just a business for profit and loss, they are an essential for the whole economy of the UK, and it is time some woke up and realised that.

So is the NHS but why should railway workers get pay rises at the tax payers expense when nurses (who sometimes have to work 12 hour overnight shifts) get below inflation increases?

Or like I already asked why should you get the pay rise when people who can't get jobs and are trying very hard to find work getting their benefits cut when they need them for essentials like bread opposed to a 2 week holiday in Australia?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....What needs to be remembered is Northern are still a heavily subsided franchise, their overall parent (DB) hasn't been performing well financially and things like training new drivers requires quite a lot of investment and a return on which won't be seen until they are being utilised to drive the new services. If Northern weren't a train operator I imagine they'd be offering 0% this year and an above inflation increase once the new services are operational....

I would like to point out a few things here. This isn't just about drivers and guards, it's all frontline staff, including those on £17k. The company goes on about how it doesn't have any money, but they constantly asks staff for ideas about how to spend £1bn in improving the company (and find reason not to implement it), they're spending £2m on advertising a brand they barely use, and they have, very recently, advertised a dozen, or more, new £40k+ "manager" vacancies (closed listing) within the Northern franchise. That is all before we start talking about them sending most, if not all, managers to Berlin for a training course.

...Bit early to be talking about pay talks. Thought they weren't even whispered about until March at the earliest....

Yeah, March 2016!

Northern regularly start talks for April pay changes in July, and rely on employee pressure to get it all done and dusted for a 'backdated' payout just before Christmas. Happens every single time without fail. Not this time.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh tell me again and again. I must remember to sing company songs when I swipe on.

I answered your question.

Would they get away with this in their native Germany? Why are UK workers expected to accept their lot?

Sorry you can't accept the truth and only believe union propaganda. Hopefully one day you'll be able to think for yourself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would like to point out a few things here. This isn't just about drivers and guards, it's all frontline staff, including those on £17k. The company goes on about how it doesn't have any money, but they constantly asks staff for ideas about how to spend £1bn in improving the company (and find reason not to implement it), they're spending £2m on advertising a brand they barely use, and they have, very recently, advertised a dozen, or more, new £40k+ "manager" vacancies (closed listing) within the Northern franchise. That is all before we start talking about them sending most, if not all, managers to Berlin for a training course.

They do have a franchise agreement which requires them to introduce their new brand and improvements for passengers.

Hopefully they will have sufficiently qualified management to be able to successfully introduce a major timetable change instead of a repeat of the December 2008 fiasco under old Northern.

I accept the staff on lower wages such as the ticket office staff are probably more in need of a pay rise to meet essential living costs than the management.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....They do have a franchise agreement which requires them to introduce their new brand and improvements for passengers....

And they are doing a **** poor job of it, but the point was that they claim they have no money except when it suits them.

....Hopefully they will have sufficiently qualified management to be able to successfully introduce a major timetable change instead of a repeat of the December 2008 fiasco under old Northern....

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..... Oh, you were being serious?

 

[ComUtoR]

So is the NHS but why should railway workers get pay rises at the tax payers expense when nurses (who sometimes have to work 12 hour overnight shifts) get below inflation increases?

The pay settlement announced by the minister last Friday afternoon falls far short of what the unions wanted.

It sets out a 1% rise for the 60% of health care staff who are at the top of their pay band.

That rise is non-consolidated, which means it is effectively a one-off bonus which won't necessarily be added into next year's pay.

The 1% payment will equate to around £300 for most, with a maximum of £985.

The other 40% of staff who aren't at the top of their pay band, will get their normal annual incremental rise.

This will on average be 3.7% rise which will equate to a minimum of £1,588.

The unions want the 1% rise to be consolidated, meaning it would increase annual salaries and wouldn't be a one off payment.

Although there was a pay freeze for two years (2011/2012 and 2012/2013) for most public sector staff including the NHS, many NHS staff including nurses continue to receive annual incremental pay rises at an average of over 3% each year, which is paid in addition to any annual pay award.

The pay freeze was vital to the Government’s plan for helping to restore public finances following the recession, but lower paid staff were protected with those earning £21,000 or less receiving a consolidated payment of £250.00 in both years.

In 2013/2014 - all employed NHS staff received a one percent consolidated pay increase;

In 2014/2015 - just under half of all employed NHS staff no longer eligible to receive incremental pay, received a one percent non-consolidated payment;

In 2015/2016 trade unions agreed a pay deal which gave most employed non-medical staff, including most nurses a 1% consolidated pay increase, with lower paid staff receiving higher consolidated increases of up to 5.6% on top of these increases, eligible staff also received incremental pay averaging more than 3%.

The information is easily found about remuneration for Nurses and various NHS staff. I have 2 close personal friends in the NHS and one friend who was quite senior (recently retired) and many other acquaintances along the way.

according to the latest staff earnings estimates published by the Health and Social Care Information Centre (27/11/2015), mean annual basic pay per FTE qualified nurses stand at £30,834, a slight increase from the same time last year and above the figure for the NHS as a whole (£29,852) which remains well above the national average salary for 2015 of £26,500 (Office for National Statistics).

I have the utmost respect for nurses and pretty much every single NHS employee. I've been around NHS employees for many years but let's not be disingenuous about what they earn, hours they keep or what pay rises and benefits they get. Personally, I'd double their salary.

 

[Carlisle]

RMT I think indicated they were happy to do a Scotrail deal.

I'm sure realistically if Scotrail is eventually nationalised they'll be looking for further efficiencies, given the amount of subsidy it receives. That deal was probably seen more as a short term fix mainly to allow the new electric services to be introduced free from further industrial action

 

[FordFocus]

So is the NHS but why should railway workers get pay rises at the tax payers expense when nurses (who sometimes have to work 12 hour overnight shifts) get below inflation increases?

I've seen in various railway mess rooms and booking on points supporting posters for Junior Doctors and 'Fair Pay for Nurses' by rail unions. However it's up to their respective health unions to secure deals for their members working. TSSA, RMT, ASLEF and Unite have both marched in demos to aid their cause. Pay for a completely different industry is irrelevant. It's like comparing a unionised Hovis Baker to a Wakefield booking office clerk. I believe nurses and other grades in the NHS should be on more pay but the comparison between railway workers and the health service is shaky and constantly wheeled out by yourself and others on these forums.

The conservatives privatised the railways in 1993 for the ideology of free market thinking and let market forces play a large part. Arriva Rail North Limited is a private company and isn't restricted to any form of government "pay cap", it's between the company and unions. Northern staff are amongst the lowest paid in most grades between all the TOCs.

Other industries and small businesses are getting taxpayers money through grants and support so it's not just limited to the railway.

Or like I already asked why should you get the pay rise when people who can't get jobs and are trying very hard to find work getting their benefits cut when they need them for essentials like bread opposed to a 2 week holiday in Australia?

How dare workers get a pay rise. :roll:

I can't think of many staff I work with who go on 2 week holidays in Australia. I can however think of the majority of the workforce who have seen an increase in bills... Trade unions want to create jobs on the railway so I'm not sure where your going with that remark.....

 

[northwichcat]

The information is easily found about remuneration for Nurses and various NHS staff. I have 2 close personal friends in the NHS and one friend who was quite senior (recently retired) and many other acquaintances along the way.

I have the utmost respect for nurses and pretty much every single NHS employee. I've been around NHS employees for many years but let's not be disingenuous about what they earn, hours they keep or what pay rises and benefits they get. Personally, I'd double their salary.

The bit you didn't highlight is

Although there was a pay freeze for two years (2011/2012 and 2012/2013)

Would the rail unions accept 0% for two years if they got above inflation increases in subsequent years?

 

[FordFocus]

Yeah, March 2016!

Northern regularly start talks for April pay changes in July, and rely on employee pressure to get it all done and dusted for a 'backdated' payout just before Christmas. Happens every single time without fail. Not this time.

Well overdue then. Are all 4 unions involved in the talks or have they gone their seperate ways?

 

[northwichcat]

Other industries and small businesses are getting taxpayers money through grants and support so it's not just limited to the railway.

How dare workers get a pay rise. :roll:

I can't think of many staff I work with who go on 2 week holidays in Australia. I can however think of the majority of the workforce who have seen an increase in bills...

If you haven't noticed the government has been rationing public funding since 2010. Are you saying train drivers who are on £42+k should get a pay rise funded by a public subsidy over other public sector employees who barely have enough to live on?

Trade unions want to create jobs on the railway so I'm not sure where your going with that remark.....

Bringing Northern drivers up to London level would mean less money to spend on additional employees and increase the chance of more cheap agency staff on minimum wage being used. The unions make a huge fuss about Arriva's profits being used to fund DB losses. However, Arriva PLC employ over 55,000 people and made £18.1m profit in the most recent year. If those profits were divided equally between all the Arriva employees each one would get less than £330 before tax. Would Northern employees be happy with £330?

 

[FordFocus]

If you haven't noticed the government has been rationing public funding since 2010. Are you saying train drivers who are on £42+k should get a pay rise funded by a public subsidy over other public sector employees who barely have enough to live on?

Again, why are you singling out train drivers here? These pay talks effect all of the company with the exception of senior management and directors. So from driver managers near to £50k down to train care cleaners on £15k . Northern and other TOCs are of course going to receive public subsidy and if they didn't the railway in the North would fail, so on that basis on what your saying is that none of Northerns staff would receive a pay rise for the foreseeable future because they receive a public subsidy. If you recall the taxpayer bailed out RBS and Lloyds but that never stopped lavish bonuses been spent on the top layers of management.

Bringing Northern drivers up to London level would mean less money to spend on additional employees and increase the chance of more cheap agency staff on minimum wage being used. The unions make a huge fuss about Arriva's profits being used to fund DB losses. However, Arriva PLC employ over 55,000 people and made £18.1m profit in the most recent year. If those profits were divided equally between all the Arriva employees each one would get less than £330 before tax. Would Northern employees be happy with £330?

London salary level is a bit different as many have DOO inside their contracts along with the London Weighting now included in many TOCs pay, Northern don't. Arriva made three times amount of money the previous financial year but dropped this year as they wrote off some money for a pension issue and changes to accounting if I recall. In 2017 they will have an improved Northern, XC new direct award, Chiltern making money from Oxford services, LOROL becoming 100% owned and the other rail sections so highly likely to make more profit.