Station name word order - Croydon

[Rescars]

The normal pattern of station names where there were (or indeed are) more than one station in a town/city has been to put the town name first followed by a more specific descriptor, such as Andover Junction or Bristol Temple Meads. Frequently cardinal compass directions are used, like Blackpool North. Croydon is unusual in having its cardinal points prefixing the town name (East Croydon and West Croydon). No doubt there are a few others which follow this reversed pattern. But less well known, in the 1860s the LBSC tried to attract more business in Croydon by opening a short branch line to a third station, named Central Croydon. As it so happens this venture was pretty unsuccessful and it was closed for the second time in 1890 (after which the site came in handy for the spectacular Town Hall). There were/are plenty of Central stations where the town/city name comes first, such as Cardiff, Glasgow, Leicester, Manchester, etc, but is anyone aware of any other location apart from Croydon where "Central" prefixed the name of the town?

 

[Gloster]

The normal pattern of station names where there were (or indeed are) more than one station in a town/city has been to put the town name first followed by a more specific descriptor, such as Andover Junction or Bristol Temple Meads. Frequently cardinal compass directions are used, like Blackpool North. Croydon is unusual in having its cardinal points prefixing the town name (East Croydon and West Croydon). No doubt there are a few others which follow this reversed pattern. But less well known, in the 1860s the LBSC tried to attract more business in Croydon by opening a short branch line to a third station, named Central Croydon. As it so happens this venture was pretty unsuccessful and it was closed for the second time in 1890 (after which the site came in handy for the spectacular Town Hall). There were/are plenty of Central stations where the town/city name comes first, such as Cardiff, Glasgow, Leicester, Manchester, etc, but is anyone aware of any other location apart from Croydon where "Central" prefixed the name of the town?

Quick’s Chronology does not list any. There was Central in the Royal Albert Dock area from 1880 to 1940 and Central Wales Junction was one of the names used ‘initially, and erratically,’ for Builth Road Low Level.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Apart from the above, reckon the only other 'Central Station' in the U.K. might just be the one on the Tyne & Wear Metro network.

 

[frankmoh]

There was a station literally called 'Central' in the London Docklands, from 1880 to 1940 when it was blown up during the war. It was two stops after Custom House.

 

[Ashley Hill]

There were/are plenty of Central stations where the town/city name comes first, such as Cardiff

Originally called Cardiff General.

 

[The exile]

Croydon is unusual in having its cardinal points prefixing the town name (East Croydon and West Croydon). No doubt there are a few others which follow this reversed pattern.

Normally the pattern is that "Name" followed by "compass point" is a purely railway thing, whereas "compass point" followed by "name" is either because it was already a known combination before the railway or (less often) because it genuinely serves that geographical area. So "Anytown North" can be anywhere in Anytown as long as it's further north than "Anytown South" - it is purely to distinguish two, possibly competing stations. "North Anytown" is so named either because it is in a part of Anytown already known as "North Anytown" or - less frequently - because it genuinely serves the northern part of Anytown. Did that apply to Croydon?

 

[frankmoh]

Normally the pattern is that "Name" followed by "compass point" is a purely railway thing, whereas "compass point" followed by "name" is either because it was already a known combination before the railway or (less often) because it genuinely serves that geographical area. So "Anytown North" can be anywhere in Anytown as long as it's further north than "Anytown South" - it is purely to distinguish two, possibly competing stations. "North Anytown" is so named either because it is in a part of Anytown already known as "North Anytown" or - less frequently - because it genuinely serves the northern part of Anytown. Did that apply to Croydon?

For another London example, North Woolwich is on the other side of the Thames to (regular) Woolwich. I assume Woolwich North would be somewhere on the south side of the Thames by the ferry pier.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

'Central' didn't necessarily mean, of course, a centrally located station - the Great Central used it to indicate their stations where there were competing companies - and as a latecomer, they were often more remote. In Northern Ireland Belfast Central (since renamed) was an egregious example - named after the Central Rly - but hopelessly remote from the city-centre.

 

[Magdalia]

Frequently cardinal compass directions are used, like Blackpool North. Croydon is unusual in having its cardinal points prefixing the town name (East Croydon and West Croydon). No doubt there are a few others which follow this reversed pattern.

This is common in London.

Acton has all 4 cardinal points: East Acton, North Acton and West Acton are on the Central Line, and South Acton on what is now the Mildmay Line.

Acton also has a Town, a Central and a Main Line, but those are suffixes not prefixes.

 

[bramling]

This is common in London.

Acton has all 4 cardinal points: East Acton, North Acton and West Acton are on the Central Line, and South Acton on what is now the Mildmay Line.

Acton also has a Town, a Central and a Main Line, but those are suffixes not prefixes.

Similar at Finchley. East Finchley is, nowadays at least, a place in its own right, as is North Finchley for which Woodside Park is actually the nearest station. Finchley Central serves an area known as Church End, which the station was originally named after. How West Finchley got its name is beyond me. Everyone seems to get by though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For a long time, the naming of Croydon's stations led me to believe that the town was rather polycentric- and that West and East Croydon must be distinct parts of Croydon. When I later learned there was a South Croydon and had once been a Central Croydon I began to doubt my assumptions.

Another oddity with the cardinal directions was Clayton West. This is the full name of the village (though locals will sometimes shorten it to just Clayton) and there isn't a corresponding village called Clayton East.

 

[izvor]

For a long time, the naming of Croydon's stations led me to believe that the town was rather polycentric- and that West and East Croydon must be distinct parts of Croydon. When I later learned there was a South Croydon and had once been a Central Croydon I began to doubt my assumptions.

I think you are right, and I also believe that a lot of this has to do with the quirks of station naming by the early railway companies, which were often inconsistent or even downright fanciful. Worthing is another town with an East and West before the name, as well as plain Worthing (which was called Worthing Central for a time until the 1960s). A quick search shows no old map with locations named "East W" or "West W", at least until well after the stations were established and lent their names to the district. Canterbury has a C East and C West but also had a South Canterbury, on a now-closed branch, to further confuse the logic.

For another London example, North Woolwich is on the other side of the Thames to (regular) Woolwich. I assume Woolwich North would be somewhere on the south side of the Thames by the ferry pier.

Again I am fairly certain that North Woolwich was so named by the Eastern Counties Railway, as there was no settlement there until the railway arrived and established the docks, as well as a ferry across the Thames to Woolwich proper (which they cheekily called "South Woolwich"!), which pre-dated the railway on the other bank by a couple of years so was no doubt popular. Bizarrely North Woolwich was actually in Kent when the railway was opened.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Again I am fairly certain that North Woolwich was so named by the Eastern Counties Railway, as there was no settlement there until the railway arrived and established the docks, as well as a ferry across the Thames to Woolwich proper (which they cheekily called "South Woolwich"!), which pre-dated the railway on the other bank by a couple of years so was no doubt popular. Bizarrely North Woolwich was actually in Kent when the railway was opened.

And became part of the County of London when that was created in 1888, although the surrounding area remained part of Essex until Greater London became a thing in 1965.

The manor of Woolwich is recorded in the Domesday Book as including territory on the north side of the Thames, although there was little there except the ferry landing.

Similarly North Greenwich, (now the name of the Greenwich peninsula, which was formerly nown as East Greenwich) , was originally the name of the station at the southern tip of the Isle of Dogs on the Millwall Railway (the site of the original Island Gardens station). However, that was never part of Kent.

 

[frankmoh]

For a long time, the naming of Croydon's stations led me to believe that the town was rather polycentric- and that West and East Croydon must be distinct parts of Croydon. When I later learned there was a South Croydon and had once been a Central Croydon I began to doubt my assumptions.

For a time there was the Woodside & South Croydon Railway, which terminated in south Croydon but not South Croydon station. It terminated 1 stop north at Sanderstead instead. Yet more Victorian railway shenanigans.

 

[John Webb]

For another London example, North Woolwich is on the other side of the Thames to (regular) Woolwich. I assume Woolwich North would be somewhere on the south side of the Thames by the ferry pier.

.....Again I am fairly certain that North Woolwich was so named by the Eastern Counties Railway, as there was no settlement there until the railway arrived and established the docks, as well as a ferry across the Thames to Woolwich proper (which they cheekily called "South Woolwich"!), which pre-dated the railway on the other bank by a couple of years so was no doubt popular. Bizarrely North Woolwich was actually in Kent when the railway was opened.

And became part of the County of London when that was created in 1888, although the surrounding area remained part of Essex until Greater London became a thing in 1965.
The manor of Woolwich is recorded in the Domesday Book as including territory on the north side of the Thames, although there was little there except the ferry landing.

On the south side of the river the main part of Woolwich had two stations which might have been called 'West Woolwich' and 'Central Woolwich', but instead were named respectively 'Woolwich Dockyard' and 'Woolwich Arsenal' after the two predominant places of employment in the area.

 

[edwin_m]

The Tyne and Wear Metro has several, mostly inherited from the suburban railway network. I think this naming is to serve a distinct community that happens to be named in relation to another one nearby - in fact the station may have given rise to the community. Whereas a suffix tends to indicate stations on different lines intended to serve the same community - Croydon is an exception to this.

Some of these names are geographically confusing. West Jesmond is north of where I think people would put the centre of Jesmond (near Jesmond station and church), although most of Jesmond is east of both stations. South Gosforth is east of where most people would consider Gosforth to be.

 

[Rescars]

For a long time, the naming of Croydon's stations led me to believe that the town was rather polycentric- and that West and East Croydon must be distinct parts of Croydon. When I later learned there was a South Croydon and had once been a Central Croydon I began to doubt my assumptions.

Another oddity with the cardinal directions was Clayton West. This is the full name of the village (though locals will sometimes shorten it to just Clayton) and there isn't a corresponding village called Clayton East.

West Croydon on the London and Croydon Railway was the first station to open, named just Croydon. When the London and Brighton arrived in town they called their station Croydon as well. East and West were added to prevent confusion. East Croydon is certainly east of the centre of town. Being sited at the northern end of North End, a road which is a northern extension of the High Street, West Croydon is actually located more north than west - though it is west of East Croydon. Central Croydon, on the High Street, was certainly central, though a bit south of East and West Croydon - but nothing like as far south as South Croydon!

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Got to be very careful not to get a train to West Kilbride thinking it will be handy for the west end of East Kilbride.

 

[Buzby]

Got to be very careful not to get a train to West Kilbride thinking it will be handy for the west end of East Kilbride.

Just think how confused the residents of Kilbride (Isle of Bute) have been over the years Trying to find either.

I just recalled Glasgow’s finest was always referred to as ‘Central’ or ‘Central Station’. I believe it was only in the late 60s-70s that the signage changed to ’Glasgow Central’.

 

[Rescars]

For a time there was the Woodside & South Croydon Railway, which terminated in south Croydon but not South Croydon station. It terminated 1 stop north at Sanderstead instead. Yet more Victorian railway shenanigans.

For the sake of completeness, we should include New Croydon. This was built by the LBSC alongside East Croydon to enable it to undercut the fares it had agreed with the SER to be charged by both companies from East Croydon. New Croydon was merged into East Croydon when the station was rebuilt in the 1890s.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Canterbury has a C East and C West but also had a South Canterbury, on a now-closed branch, to further confuse the logic.

Canterbury East is almost due south of Canterbury West, and was further west than Canterbury South. There appears to be no logic to this - the only compass point named in either of the railways that built the station is in the South Eastern Railway - which built the West station!

Peterborough North is on the west side of the city, whilst Peterborough East was on the south side. These names do reflect their original companies - respectively the Great Northern and the Eastern Counties (later the Great Eastern).

 

[bramling]

Just think how confused the residents of Kilbride (Isle of Bute) have been over the years Trying to find either.

I just recalled Glasgow’s finest was always referred to as ‘Central’ or ‘Central Station’. I believe it was only in the late 60s-70s that the signage changed to ’Glasgow Central’.

Newcastle is similar. A relative of mine got confused when he was making a journey from Tynemouth to Hartlepool, and I (perhaps not being as clear as I might have been) said you need to take the metro and then get the train from Newcastle station. “Central Station” didn’t click with him at all, and he actually ended up alighting at Monument and walking, being aware of having done that walk before.

Perhaps it might have been easier if Newcastle was actually “Newcastle Grainger Street”, and the metro station could then be simply “Grainger Street”, akin to the situation in Liverpool. Although well-sited, “Central Station” isn’t really central as such.

 

[izvor]

Canterbury East is almost due south of Canterbury West, and was further west than Canterbury South. There appears to be no logic to this - the only compass point named in either of the railways that built the station is in the South Eastern Railway - which built the West station!

I think the "logic" here - if there ever was any! - is that Canterbury West is close to the famous West Gate. (It's also near to North Lane). Looking at a map, I would say that Canterbury East is actually, by a scrape, the westernmost of the three. It is all a bit hard to fathom.

 

[Rescars]

Just down the line from Croydon, Coulsdon Town (previously Smitham) has a central location, but is significantly north of the site of Coulsdon North as well as Coulsdon South. Before renaming the stations North and South, the Southern tried West and East, though happily this confusion only lasted for three weeks in July 1923. Someone lost their bearings perhaps!

 

[bishdunster]

On the GC the station at Brackley was "Brackley Central", and of course in days of yore down South we had Bournemouth Central.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think the "logic" here - if there ever was any! - is that Canterbury West is close to the famous West Gate. (It's also near to North Lane). Looking at a map, I would say that Canterbury East is actually, by a scrape, the westernmost of the three. It is all a bit hard to fathom.

All right, I accept the challange!

The red blobs on the OS map, (using Street Map) are at grid references TR1464/5727 (East) and 1455/5840 (West). (To the nearest ten metres). The East station is therefore 14640-14550 = 90 metres further east.

However, the blobs are roughly in the middle of the respective stations, near the entrances. The west end of canterbury East's platforms are at TR1454/5728, and the east end of the West station's platforms at TR1459/5848, which is 50 metres further west.

But grid lines are not perfectly aligned with True North, except along 2 degrees W. Relative to the grid, lines of longitude converge towards the north, so at the longitude of Canterbury, given two points on the same grid easting, the more northerly of the two will be further east in longitude.

Using an online converter between grid and lat/long)
the blobs are
East station 1deg 4' 33" E, 51deg 16' 27" N
West station 1 deg 4' 31" E, 51deg 17' 4" N

A difference in longitude of 2 seconds of arc, which at 51 deg N is about 35 metres

The plaform ends are
(west end of East station) 1 deg 4' 28" E, 51 deg 16' 28" N
(north east end of West station) 1 deg 4' 33"E, 51deg 17' 6" E
Making the two stations overlap by 5 seconds of arc, or about 100 metres

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Not wholly relevant here but Canterbury West is actually more east than Canterbury East which sits more west of the town. Then there was Canterbury South which I believe was more accurate

 

[Tester]

For a time there was the Woodside & South Croydon Railway, which terminated in south Croydon but not South Croydon station. It terminated 1 stop north at Sanderstead instead. Yet more Victorian railway shenanigans.

To be strictly accurate, Sanderstead was two stops south of South Croydon - the junction from Woodside being at Selsdon, in between.

 

[steamybrian]

Can I mention East Grinstead which the full name of the town is used (not just Grinstead) it is many miles away from West Grinstead.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Not wholly relevant here but Canterbury West is actually more east than Canterbury East which sits more west of the town. Then there was Canterbury South which I believe was more accurate

Don't thnk so, although there is only a few metres in it.

See post #26