Speed limits

[ralphchadkirk]

The key difference between NR and heritage operations is that the latter, as highlighted above, usually already know their staff pretty well before they come forward for training in safety-critical roles. Additionally, there's not so much to be lost if the odd one fails to complete the course for whatever reason (which is inevitable). Network Rail are faced with a large number of unfamiliar faces for external applications, and they need to be sure that they're taking on folk who have the best ability to get through the training successfully - and I'd suggest that's one big reason for assessing competencies beforehand.

And (certainly at the MHR) traffic staff start on platforms, and if they're assessed that they cannot do the job properly and safely there, then you don't get onto the higher training grades.

 

[Tomnick]

Exactly, with such a small operation (relative to Network Rail!), it's easy to be familiar with all of your potential staff for training in Traffic grades - that, and a decent interview, enables you to establish pretty reliably whether they're going to be any good.

 

[scotsman]

The problem is the interference of the management in speed limits, on my railway we have an AOCL, limit 15mph, however after an accident on the mainline where a Class 158 hit a car - a (permanent) TSR of 5mph over the crossing has been applied. Now, a crash is more likely since motorists will get impatient waiting at the lights

 

[Tomnick]

The problem is the interference of the management in speed limits, on my railway we have an AOCL, limit 15mph, however after an accident on the mainline where a Class 158 hit a car - a (permanent) TSR of 5mph over the crossing has been applied. Now, a crash is more likely since motorists will get impatient waiting at the lights

And that's the (big) danger of kneejerk reactions without properly considering the consequences - surely any permanent change to the speed on approach to the crossing requires a complete redesign to ensure that it continues to comply with the relevant standards?

 

[Zoe]

And (certainly at the MHR) traffic staff start on platforms, and if they're assessed that they cannot do the job properly and safely there, then you don't get onto the higher training grades.

It's certainly the case that the locomotive crew have to work their way up from cleaner on every railway but it doesn't seem to be the case everywhere for traffic staff. Some railways will train signalmen off the street and will also allow you to go directly to TTI and then to guard without having to work on the platform first. One of these does prefer all signalmen to be at least 25 years old though.

 

[scotsman]

And that's the (big) danger of kneejerk reactions without properly considering the consequences - surely any permanent change to the speed on approach to the crossing requires a complete redesign to ensure that it continues to comply with the relevant standards?

No doubt why it's a TSR then!

 

[E&W Lucas]

The consequences of sending another train into an occupied block section at higher speeds are likely to be much more serious though. The difference with a heritage line is competency is assesssed in training and on the job whereas on NR you'd never get in the door in the first place if you couldn't demonstrate extensive experience of the competencies they wanted through previous employment.

People are getting tied in knots here.

How can you send a train into an occupied section? Preserved lines have interlocking too!!! Zoe - have you any first hand experience of non - track circuit signaling systems? They're usually running on ETB or some form of train staff/ ts &t working, as they are single lines. Absolute block doesn't apply!

Psychometric is certainly something that could be insisted upon. Please remember that the NYMR model is probably relevant however. This has seen in grade experience used instead, to demonstrate suitability for the Whitby running.

All academic in practice. Preserved lines simply don't have the money for the sort of works required., That's why they are operating under LRO's in the first place.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It's certainly the case that the locomotive crew have to work their way up from cleaner on every railway but it doesn't seem to be the case everywhere for traffic staff. Some railways will train signalmen off the street and will also allow you to go directly to TTI and then to guard without having to work on the platform first. One of these does prefer all signalmen to be at least 25 years old though.

I can only speak for my railway. If you want a guards, shunters or signalmen's position then you start on the platform (there are a few people with "grandfather" rights though). You can't go from TTI to guard either. You have to go through platforms.

 

[Tomnick]

How can you send a train into an occupied section? Preserved lines have interlocking too!!!

Welwyn . Without Welwyn Control (which I don't believe any of the three heritage lines working AB have), it's quite possible to knock out for one that's still in section (either because you've gone to the wrong instrument, or because you've convinced yourself that it's out of the section and you've just forgotten to knock out for it). Welwyn Control adds fifty thought-provoking turns of the hurdy gurdy, but doesn't stop you taking a second one in if you're still not convinced.

Zoe - have you any first hand experience of non - track circuit signaling systems? They're usually running on ETB or some form of train staff/ ts &t working, as they are single lines. Absolute block doesn't apply!

And of course it's much more difficult to get two in a sectoin on ETB.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Welwyn . Without Welwyn Control (which I don't believe any of the three heritage lines working AB have), it's quite possible to knock out for one that's still in section (either because you've gone to the wrong instrument, or because you've convinced yourself that it's out of the section and you've just forgotten to knock out for it). Welwyn Control adds fifty thought-provoking turns of the hurdy gurdy, but doesn't stop you taking a second one in if you're still not convinced.

And of course it's much more difficult to get two in a sectoin on ETB.

The MHR is EKT, and Welwyn control.

 

[Tomnick]

How do you get Welwyn Control on EKT? Surely the arrival of the train is proved without doubt by the restoration of the token?

 

[Zoe]

Zoe - have you any first hand experience of non - track circuit signaling systems? They're usually running on ETB or some form of train staff/ ts &t working, as they are single lines. Absolute block doesn't apply!

There are many examples of Absolute Block that are still in use now. I've seen Absolute Block working first hand. The line that would most likely benefit from higher speeds is also Absolute Block and does not have Welwyn control so it would be relatively easy for a mistake to result in a second train getting sent into the block section.

 

[AlexS]

Therefore the point in principle is not to let two in a bed If you're on the ball it should never happen.

I think the only examples of full absolute block on a preserved line are Loughborough-Quorn-(Swithland)-Rothley and Bewdley South-Bewdley North with vast majority of others being EKT/TCB?

If it's still permissible to throw Pendolinos and the like around on AB working, I'm sure heritage lines won't have any issue. AWS is being fitted in various places.

AB working is still all over the national network at high speeds.

Certainly as a preserved railway signalman I have to be medically assessed and have regular competency reviews, having done several years previous to being passed out (with a bloody big written exam at that point!) as a station master and other similar roles, as well as a good 6 months being observed working boxes before qualifying to work them alone. That should weed out any truly awful candidates.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Therefore the point in principle is not to let two in a bed If you're on the ball it should never happen.

I think the only examples of full absolute block on a preserved line are Loughborough-Quorn-(Swithland)-Rothley and Bewdley South-Bewdley North with vast majority of others being EKT/TCB?

I think you are right. I am slightly mystified by the talk of absolute block on a single line. Where does thr intrgrity come from? Single links need some form of physical or electrical device to ensure that there is only one train in the section.

Most seem to work on electric token block or train staff / train staff and ticket.

 

[Tomnick]

No-one's mentioned AB on a single line...?

 

[LE Greys]

I'm thinking that when the 125 Group eventually get to run their preserved HST, it might be a bit strange. Start with as near to Notch 3 as possible, possibly the odd blip into Notch 4, then throttle back just as the rear power car clears the platform and coast, with occasional blips of Notch 1, until the next station. Will they ever get to run at full power before any main line runs? One certainty is that it will annoy the neighbours.

GCR runs up to 75 mph in places now. Demonstration TPOs are up to 35 mph.

I remember once seeing Witherslack Hall come barrelling through Quorn on a TPO demonstration, probably at about 40. When asked, I was assured unequivocally that it was "Twenty-five miles per hour."

 

[Zoe]

I remember once seeing Witherslack Hall come barrelling through Quorn on a TPO demonstration, probably at about 40. When asked, I was assured unequivocally that it was "Twenty-five miles per hour."

I believe the train will run at 25 mph from Loughborough and if the driver seees Quorn's Up Distant at green then they will accelerate to 35 mph for the demonstration and then immediately return to 25 mph.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How do you get Welwyn Control on EKT? Surely the arrival of the train is proved without doubt by the restoration of the token?

I'm not a signalman - but we definately have a key to turn for about 2 minutes until the N re-appears. For what purpose, I don't know.

 

[notadriver]

HSTs seem quite slow to accelerate so there should be some notch 5 opportunities. Actually that's based on a full rake - how long would the set be and would it use both engines running?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm not a signalman - but we definately have a key to turn for about 2 minutes until the N re-appears. For what purpose, I don't know.

My mistake - that'll be Sykes suicide key. Again, for what purpose, I don't know.

 

[Zoe]

One certainty is that it will annoy the neighbours.

Not if they retain the MTU engines.

 

[YorkshireBear]

sorry i didnt know the 125 group had a HST? which one is it?

 

[E&W Lucas]

No-one's mentioned AB on a single line...?

Lots of talk about it above, but surely the only place in preservation that it would be relevant is the double track section of the GC? I got the feeling that some are getting in a tangle between the multitude of different block systems.

What absolutely would be required for higher speeds is TPWS fitment. Think money, and lots of it.

As for HST's on notch 5 - no need at all.

 

[Adamw5433]

sorry i didnt know the 125 group had a HST? which one is it?

I'm not aware of them acquired one, and theres nothing in the news (on thier own site or general rail press)
They've acquired a number of valenta engines that i know of, and plenty of cooler group items.

Would be interesting if they had acquired a power car.

Adam

 

[sprinterguy]

sorry i didnt know the 125 group had a HST? which one is it?

They don't have one, it's purely hypothetical. There's far too much demand for the HSTs amongst the TOCs at the moment for one to be offered for preservation.

 

[YorkshireBear]

They don't have one, it's purely hypothetical. There's far too much demand for the HSTs amongst the TOCs at the moment for one to be offered for preservation.

must of taken wrong end of stick

 

[Tomnick]

Lots of talk about it above, but surely the only place in preservation that it would be relevant is the double track section of the GC? I got the feeling that some are getting in a tangle between the multitude of different block systems.

Although the Severn Valley and Peak Rail both have short sections of Absolute Block (through Bewdley and Darley Dale stations respectively), I'd agree that it's only really relevant to the longer sections on the GCR. The discussion does seem to have focussed on that method of working rather than the other block systems found on the majority of railways.

 

[Zoe]

It's possible that the GCR will one day carry commercial traffic. This would likely be at higher speeds and I would have thought would be outside the remit of the Light Rail Order. The question here is if the signalling would need to be upgraded and if the signalmen would have to be externally assessed. It could be an option for the railway to go fully commercial and only have paid staff but I'm not sure I'd want to see that. There is one heritage railway that uses this system though.

 

[Tomnick]

My personal opinion (not any sort of official line): no and no respectively. The signalling's good for 60mph, and any higher-speed running wouldn't necessarily involve passenger trains (we already run up to 75mph in certain circumstances, and 60mph more regularly). I don't know who'd assess our Signalmen externally and what they'd do that we couldn't.

 

[E&W Lucas]

It's possible that the GCR will one day carry commercial traffic. This would likely be at higher speeds and I would have thought would be outside the remit of the Light Rail Order. The question here is if the signalling would need to be upgraded and if the signalmen would have to be externally assessed. It could be an option for the railway to go fully commercial and only have paid staff but I'm not sure I'd want to see that. There is one heritage railway that uses this system though.

I wouldn't have thought that would be necessary, although many railways do already have a core of paid operational staff.

It is important to understand that being paid to do a job, does not indicate a greater degree of proficiency than someone who is doing it on a voluntary basis. (within the limitations of heritage operations, I am not comparing mainline & heritage staff here).This has already been accepted by HMRI, with the use of volunteers to operate the NYMR Whitby services. I can't see any need for external verfication of the GCR's staff. The Moors just had to put a sufficiently rigid CMS in place, with length of time in grade without problems. being used to demonstrate suitability, rather than psychometric testing.