Speculation on West Midlands Fleet Plans

[hwl]

Do Bombardier have capacity for another batch of Aventra's, with the Crossrail and LO projects ongoing and orders for SWR and GA in the books?

As delivery is by mid 2021, they do running at only 50% capacity after completing the other orders.

 

[childwallblues]

The /1s aren't that much older.

And isn't it the case that the /1s (and /3s) can do 110mph but the /2s are only 100mph?

That does not stop the 350/2 appearing on the EUS-CRE services.

 

[MK Tom]

That does not stop the 350/2 appearing on the EUS-CRE services.

But it does make it a little bit late every time they do.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What would be involved with uprating the 350/2s to be able to go at 110mph?

 

[swt_passenger]

What would be involved with uprating the 350/2s to be able to go at 110mph?

Same as what was done to the 350/1s, i.e. not very much at all.

Internal modifications to the motors to withstand greater rotational forces. "Rotor keep rings" or some such it was described as. Different pantographs perhaps? Software changes.

 

[northwichcat]

Don't know if it's true but apparently Abellio's plan A for WCML services was 745s from Stadler but the deal's fallen through so they'll resort to plan B whatever that is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't know if it's true but apparently Abellio's plan A for WCML services was 745s from Stadler but the deal's fallen through so they'll resort to plan B whatever that is.

As in FLIRTs? That's a shame if true. I would have liked those.

 

[northwichcat]

As in FLIRTs? That's a shame if true. I would have liked those.

Yes 745s is the number which has been allocated for Anglia's electric only FLIRTs. Although, apparently they are only 100mph capable so I'm not sure how easy it is for them to produce ones which can do 110mph or more.

Abellio can't sign any contracts yet in case Govia appeal against the decision so even if it's true it could be tactical to try and get a better deal from Stadler.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Don't know if it's true but apparently Abellio's plan A for WCML services was 745s from Stadler but the deal's fallen through so they'll resort to plan B whatever that is.

Supplementing the 350s or replacing the 350s?

 

[sd0733]

Supplementing the 350s or replacing the 350s?

Reading between the lines it's presumed to be a bit of both. The /1s, /3s and possibly /4s may be the south WC fleet with the 350/2s going but until the actual announcements are made nobody knows for sure. But the numbers just don't add up to keeping everything, the fleet growth would be huge.

 

[boxy321]

It might be a bit over capacity, but you can run it with anything you like. Perhaps a single-car variant could be produced by putting a cab onto the other end of a driving vehicle?

I'd like to see electrification then reuse of an 11-car Pendolino here. Not sure what the maximum speed could be and I understand the platforms may be an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd like to see electrification then reuse of an 11-car Pendolino here. Not sure what the maximum speed could be and I understand the platforms may be an issue.

Get a few, add gangways, park them up and you could walk through instead

 

[boxy321]

Get a few, add gangways, park them up and you could walk through instead

4 11-car sets would be perfect and power could be supplied with a plug on the end set then fed through.

 

[fgwrich]

Wasn't there something reported that having been snuffed by Abellios choice of Bombardier / Stadler for the Greater Anglia franchise, Abellio was to put Siemens as an option if it took another franchise I.e the West Midlands one? It could be the tiredness but I'm sure I read that somewhere?

 

[hwl]

Wasn't there something reported that having been snuffed by Abellios choice of Bombardier / Stadler for the Greater Anglia franchise, Abellio was to put Siemens as an option if it took another franchise I.e the West Midlands one? It could be the tiredness but I'm sure I read that somewhere?

Indeed Siemens and WM but if they turn out to be more expensive than everybody else then unlikely. I suspect there was a high degree of challenge likely (with the still on going Bombardier action against Stadler on the Merseyrail stock tender likely to be an issue? Bombardier agree the rolling stock build to go ahead but continued with the legal action for unfair tender award)

 

[E_Reeves]

I've heard (not sure on reliability) that the new franchise are obtaining some new 153s from somewhere.

 

[CosherB]

I've heard (not sure on reliability) that the new franchise are obtaining some new 153s from somewhere.

New 153s ... that would be quite a feat!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've heard (not sure on reliability) that the new franchise are obtaining some new 153s from somewhere.

30 years old more like

But it isn't improbable. Peak extras for the Marston Vale using only 153s have been proposed, and that would mean if one died as often happens the base service could be maintained. Remove the bog and add more cycle/wheelchair space and they would probably do the job OK. Maybe even downseat to 2+1 for more standing room.

 

[northwichcat]

I've heard (not sure on reliability) that the new franchise are obtaining some new 153s from somewhere.

The current franchise agreement indicates 6 x 153s from GWR should transfer to LM this year, with the remaining LM 150s going to Northern. The next franchise will probably look at replacing all the 153s in the fleet by the end of 2019.

 

[northwichcat]

Wasn't there something reported that having been snuffed by Abellios choice of Bombardier / Stadler for the Greater Anglia franchise, Abellio was to put Siemens as an option if it took another franchise I.e the West Midlands one? It could be the tiredness but I'm sure I read that somewhere?

I hope it was nothing more than saying they'll consider Siemens as an option, otherwise other manufacturers might launch legal challenges, especially with LM being a subsided franchise.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And I for one hope that almost any other builder gets any order as with the huuuuuuuuge success that the 700s and 380s have been I cannot trust reliability of disasteros.

 

[CosherB]

And I for one hope that almost any other builder gets any order as with the huuuuuuuuge success that the 700s and 380s have been I cannot trust reliability of disasteros.

Er, Siemens build quality is bomb-proof when you look at the 350s / 444s etc., so not generally as per the 700s.

Also, was that a 'Game of Thrones' reference?

 

[Ibex]

Have 350s ever worked on the Abbey Line yet?

No, but that's more because it would be a waste of 350s I expect. I can't see any reason they couldn't, even if minor mods would be required e.g. short platform extensions.

Sorry to jump back 4 pages of posts to answer this - Bletchleyite is correct that a 350 has never worked the Abbey line, there is issues at the moment with signal sighting at Watford North for the level crossing but I believe there was a plan recently to move the signal to allow 350's to happen. That seems to have pushed aside however.

Other than the signal sighting issue it's purely that there aren't enough 350's, especially since the Watford tunnel crash taking 2x350's out of the picture.

A few years ago (2011/2012-ish?) a 350 was used for skid-pan driver training between Watford Junction & Watford North which would be the only time one has been on the branch.

 

[causton]

Sorry to jump back 4 pages of posts to answer this - Bletchleyite is correct that a 350 has never worked the Abbey line, there is issues at the moment with signal sighting at Watford North for the level crossing but I believe there was a plan recently to move the signal to allow 350's to happen. That seems to have pushed aside however.

Indeed, I have been told that the two issues stopping 350s running on the Abbey line are the signal at Watford North and sighting for the level crossing outside St Albans Abbey. I was told that 350s would not be diagrammed on the Abbey though, only to be used if for some reason there is nothing else available, at least for the present moment... could all change though!

 

[DarloRich]

30 years old more like

But it isn't improbable. Peak extras for the Marston Vale using only 153s have been proposed, and that would mean if one died as often happens the base service could be maintained. Remove the bog and add more cycle/wheelchair space and they would probably do the job OK. Maybe even downseat to 2+1 for more standing room.

no thanks - us users want shot of the rotten 153's - i will take the tube train things over them thanks.

it is the doors that are the problem coupled with getting bikes on, not the space on the train. That and the reliability. and the smell. and the crapness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am no great fan of 153s, but the LM ones are in the best nick of any and are kept so, and are far better than 150s for both seating comfort (neither have any legroom but at least the 153 is 2+2) and for window view on the surprisingly scenic Marston Vale.

I do agree, though, that there is barely any other line in the country which is more suited to 230s (in the cheapest form of the original Tube layout and possibly no bog, and perhaps some seats removed to allow for the easy carriage of a large number of bicycles), based on having very low off-peak but very high (for a branch line) peak demand due to the schools, based on the length issue, based on the possibility of maintaining them at Bletchley CS, and based on the fact that they'll likely only be needed for 10-15 years. In fact I'd bet if they sell any they'll either be for there or for Cov-Nun-Leamington.

 

[ChrisHogan]

I am no great fan of 153s, but the LM ones are in the best nick of any and are kept so, and are far better than 150s for both seating comfort (neither have any legroom but at least the 153 is 2+2) and for window view on the surprisingly scenic Marston Vale.

I do agree, though, that there is barely any other line in the country which is more suited to 230s (in the cheapest form of the original Tube layout and possibly no bog, and perhaps some seats removed to allow for the easy carriage of a large number of bicycles), based on having very low off-peak but very high (for a branch line) peak demand due to the schools, based on the length issue, based on the possibility of maintaining them at Bletchley CS, and based on the fact that they'll likely only be needed for 10-15 years. In fact I'd bet if they sell any they'll either be for there or for Cov-Nun-Leamington.

Suggestions elsewhere that 172/0s, 230 and 350/4s are the likely pre-2020 arrivals to WM.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Do not know the timescales but 150, 153, 170, 319 and 323 all leaving. Coming in are 172/0, 350/4 and the new build plus 230s for Marston Vale. This is all subject to events in other parts of the network!

 

[northwichcat]

Do not know the timescales but 150, 153, 170 and 323 all leaving. Coming in are 172/0, 350/4 and the new build plus 230s for Marston Vale. This is all subject to events in other parts of the network!

If the 350/4s are joining that's at least a total of 325 electric carriages joining the fleet. (The DfT release said over 100 for cross city.) The 323s make 78 carriages, surely some other electric trains are leaving otherwise that's the equivalent of them receiving over 60 extra 350s just for extra capacity.

 

[Class172]

If the 350/4s are joining that's at least a total of 325 electric carriages joining the fleet. (The DfT release said over 100 for cross city.) The 323s make 78 carriages, surely some other electric trains are leaving otherwise that's the equivalent of them receiving over 60 extra 350s just for extra capacity.

Personally I would expect the 319s to be dumped at some point.