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Speculation on West Midlands Fleet Plans

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Mordac

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Might as well include this all safely in its own thread. :lol:

I'll start with my hopes: 319s, 150s, and 153s all gone, DMUs to replace them and expansion. We're told there's 80 new DMU vehicles, and the 150s and 153s are only 14 coaches, so that seems to line up. No real need to get rid of the 170s, just give them an interior makeover.
 
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Bletchleyite

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350/2s gone, /1 and /3 retained and tarted up (new seat foams, covers and carpets, little else is needed as they have very high build quality and the interiors are as new otherwise).

New order of 110mph 5 and/or 10-car Aventras based on the East Anglia order, with 2+2 seating at 3+2 width allowing extra standing room.
 

HLE

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Keep the 153's they're finally starting to be reliable in their later years.
 

northwichcat

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Sad to see the end of the 323s, a favourit of mine

I'm sure they'll end up somewhere but it's difficult to see where there would an immediate use for 43 x 3 car trains with 23.7m carriages, especially as they are too fat and long for many of the South East commuter routes.
 

CosherB

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I'm sure they'll end up somewhere but it's difficult to see where there would an immediate use for 43 x 3 car trains with 23.7m carriages, especially as they are too fat and long for many of the South East commuter routes.

We'll gladly have some back in Northern land!
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure they'll end up somewhere but it's difficult to see where there would an immediate use for 43 x 3 car trains with 23.7m carriages, especially as they are too fat and long for many of the South East commuter routes.

They are too long for the SE but not too fat - they are profiled at the ends and have close together bogie centres so should fit anywhere any other 23m unit will.

I can see them being a very good fit for the Valley Lines if they do go the way of 25kV wires.
 
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northwichcat

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We'll gladly have some back in Northern land!

The 331s are coming regardless. As the 319s and 323s are both Porterbrook owned if their claim about a risk of their being more demand for 769s than they can fulfill is true, maybe they'll let Northern swap electric only 319s for 323s?
 

Bletchleyite

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The 331s are coming regardless. As the 319s and 323s are both Porterbrook owned if their claim about a risk of their being more demand for 769s than they can fulfill is true, maybe they'll let Northern swap electric only 319s for 323s?

Given the awful reliability of 319s that isn't at all a bad idea, plus despite getting on a bit 323s do look very modern, a bit ahead of their time I guess.

Might there be enough newer EMUs to convert something nicer to DMU and scrap the 319s?
 

DarloRich

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I am sure we will lose the 153/150/319. We might lose the 350/2.

On the Vale we might end up with a displaced turbostar but that will require investment in SDO and/or investment in infrastructure.

I wonder if the tube train conversions are a short term option for our line?
 

northwichcat

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Hopefully we start hearing from people like Roger Ford, Tony Miles and Richard Clinnick later who'll probably have some inside information on the fleet plans.
 

swt_passenger

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so would I - but one never knows.

I can never understand why if lease costs were any sort of issue the Rosco couldn't re-negotiate them.

It's what happened with the 458/0s back in 2007, at least according to most accounts at the time...

Would it not be easier to convert the interiors of the batch of 350/2s to match the 1s and 3s?
 

notlob.divad

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The 331s are coming regardless. As the 319s and 323s are both Porterbrook owned if their claim about a risk of their being more demand for 769s than they can fulfill is true, maybe they'll let Northern swap electric only 319s for 323s?

I would agree, but....
a) haven't 323s got a lower capacity being 3 car not 4 car?
b) if so, would Northern need more units to allow doubling up, particularly in the peaks
c) would that mean more platform lengthening required.
d) who would cover the cost paying for refurbishment / redecorating costs on a 2nd electric fleet.
e) would Porterbrook reduce their leasing costs on the 323s and the 769 flexes northern will have, to make it worthwhile? Maybe then Northern could retain more of the flexes for use in place of other sprinter classes where there is some under the wire running.

Its a lot of questions, particularly the last one, because unless it is going to significantly reduce Northern's operating costs, or reduce the refurbishment costs, I am not sure why they would get involved with the hassle.

Porterbrook have put their foot in it a bit by failing to read the market in new EMU rolling stock orders, and at the same time presumably not dropped their leasing costs to stay competitive. There is no doubt that the Flex unit is them trying to tap into a new and potentially very good market, and they have said that this concept may be possible on other rolling stock, whether that applies to the 323s I don't know.

However the biggest headache must surely be for the DfT, NR and Transport Secretaries both current and future. If newspapers start latching on to rolling stock built in the 1990s EMUs sitting around doing nothing or even getting scrapped, whilst commuters are sat on 1980s DMUs, the transport secretary will surely come under a serious amount of political pressure given the decisions to pause - suspend - scrap electrification schemes.
 
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northwichcat

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I would agree, but....
a) haven't 323s got a lower capacity being 3 car not 4 car?

The refurbished 319s have almost exactly the same number of seats as the (non-Airport spec) 323s but obviously the 323s haven't had the big accessible toilet inserted yet. 319s having 19.8m carriages and 323s having 23.7m carriages means the difference isn't all that great.

However the biggest headache must surely be for the DfT, NR and Transport Secretaries both current and future. If newspapers start latching on to rolling stock built in the 1990s EMUs sitting around doing nothing or even getting scrapped, whilst commuters are sat on 1980s DMUs, the transport secretary will surely come under a serious amount of political pressure given the decisions to pause - suspend - scrap electrification schemes.

I doubt it. When the media got hold of the Porterbrook not wanting to lease 323s to Northern bidders story they reported the trains were getting on for 25 years old but still the most modern in the Northern fleet. As far as Joe Public would be concerned they wouldn't exactly be excited about the prospect of getting an EMU which will be 30 years old by the time the wires are up, even if it might have 7-10 years life left in it.
 
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Starmill

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Given the circumstances, it seems very unlikely that any new EMU lease could be 'unnaceptably expensive'. Their current lease might be, but it's from a different time.

Getting rid of the /2 and keeping the much older /1 would be an odd move.

As for the political consequences of '1990s trains in storage', surely this is already a reality? A significant number of 8 year old EMUs are already going into storage, while the 1976/1977 313s are still here with no replacement plans.
 
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MK Tom

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The 319s go when the 350/4s come down has been accepted wisdom for some time. Then again the entire 321 fleet was supposed to go when the 350/2s arrived and the seven that survived that were supposed to go when the 350/3s arrived, so who knows.

It's worth noting that there are five 5-car Desiros up for grabs from next year.

As Darlo alludes to we need something on the Marston Vale with 2x 20m carriages. The obvious answer to me is a 230...
 

Mordac

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Given the circumstances, it seems very unlikely that any new EMU lease could be 'unnaceptably expensive'. Their current lease might be, but it's from a different time.

Getting rid of the /2 and keeping the much older /1 would be an odd move.

As for the political consequences of '1990s trains in storage', surely this is already a reality? A significant number of 8 year old EMUs are already going into storage, while the 1976/1977 313s are still here with no replacement plans.

The 350/1s are franchise assets with protection in place until the next decade.
 

Chester1

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The 331s are coming regardless. As the 319s and 323s are both Porterbrook owned if their claim about a risk of their being more demand for 769s than they can fulfill is true, maybe they'll let Northern swap electric only 319s for 323s?

The 319 conversion quality and reliability are currently unknown. If they perform well I think orders and transfers will be managed in advance potentially to convert all 319s.

According to Wikipedia the 319s are currently divided:

Northern - 32 (8 of these will be converted)
Thameslink - 16
London Midland - 7
Off lease - 31

5 non Northern 319s are due to be converted for ATW. This means that if London Midlands stay and the remaining 24 Northern sets are not converted then there would still be a further 42 available to convert. I doubt the flex project will have much bearing on bids for this West Midlands franchise.
 
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Kite159

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If the 323s were 20-metre coaches I could have seen then heading up to Scotland as replacements of 318s/320s for higher acceleration as they are quite fast of the mark (a lot faster than a 319).

The 170s will probably be kept focused on the Hereford services where a 172 with the suburban style interior isn't best suited for the regional service, maybe 172s out to Shrewsbury where their better acceleration will be used for the many stops
 

Lrd

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Getting rid of the /2 and keeping the much older /1 would be an odd move.
The /1s aren't that much older.

And isn't it the case that the /1s (and /3s) can do 110mph but the /2s are only 100mph?
 

Domh245

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Hasn't the 350/2s recently been upgraded to run at 110mph as well?

Not that I'd heard of. My understanding is that they'll also be 110mph capable with the same mods done to them as per the /1s, but neither Angel nor LM wanted to pay for it.
 

bILLOO

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No idea but I haven't seen them on the fast line services ever.

They operate regularly on the fasts. I was on one today, in fact!

I won't miss the /2's... my heart sinks when one turns up.
 
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