Speculation on West Midlands Fleet Plans

[ChrisHogan]

What's left out of this is that WM needs to deploy a minimum of 27 extra diagrammed vehicles in December 2018 (Bromsgrove, Rugeley and Crewe via Stoke extensions) and a further 24 in December 2019 (as per the ITT). Neither of these can be satisfied, at least initially, by new trains so some cascade, possibly from GA, must still be on the cards until the new dmus and emus start arriving in 2020.

 

[Lrd]

They operate regularly on the fasts. I was on one today, in fact!

I won't miss the /2's... my heart sinks when one turns up.

I must've been lucky then. I normally get the first stop Leighton Buzzards (Brums) which have always been a /1 or /3 for me. If I get the stoppers then it is 95% a /2. I won't miss the /2s either, if they do go that is

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must've been lucky then. I normally get the first stop Leighton Buzzards (Brums) which have always been a /1 or /3 for me. If I get the stoppers then it is 95% a /2. I won't miss the /2s either, if they do go that is

The irony of the /2s (which I don't mind *that* much, as I tend to have reasonable success at getting a priority seat on the 2 side) is that they are best on services used mainly by families and groups, for which the bays of 6 are ideal, which makes them perfect for the weekend Crewes (that they tend not to run on as they lose time being only 100mph units) and not at all ideal for Tring stoppers (on which you do find them).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's left out of this is that WM needs to deploy a minimum of 27 extra diagrammed vehicles in December 2018 (Bromsgrove, Rugeley and Crewe via Stoke extensions) and a further 24 in December 2019 (as per the ITT). Neither of these can be satisfied, at least initially, by new trains so some cascade, possibly from GA, must still be on the cards until the new dmus and emus start arriving in 2020.

If they want to stay with Siemens for the moment, the HConn sets will be available soon, as will the TPE sets, and probably some from GA too.

That some of these are 5-car sets will add flexibility to form 5, 9 and 10-car formations as well as the regular 4, 8 and 12.

More 319s would also be an option, but only if they can make the things work vaguely reliably.

 

[Clansman]

I have to say I do think that the Desiro Verve would be a perfect candidate for the more longer distance limited stop services. The design offers longer carriages (and trains), more seats, better suited to the Intercity traveller and 125mph capability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have to say I do think that the Desiro Verve would be a perfect candidate for the more longer distance limited stop services. The design offers longer carriages (and trains), more seats, better suited to the Intercity traveller and 125mph capable.

They do look good, but I'm still betting on an extension of the GA Bombardier order.

 

[47802]

They do look good, but I'm still betting on an extension of the GA Bombardier order.

Given they went to Hitachi for Scotrail what they are getting for GA may not be much of a pointer for this franchise, I'm going for CAF DMU's, Siemens 700 variant for the Cross City line, and Siemens of CAF for the London EMU's, as for the Desiro Verve isn't the CAF 397 similar, and I think it likely Bombardier could offer a similar Aventra varient.
.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Given they went to Hitachi for Scotrail what they are getting for GA may not be much of a pointer for this franchise, I'm going for CAF DMU's, Siemens 700 variant for the Cross City line, and Siemens of CAF for the London EMU's, as for the Desiro Verve isn't the CAF 397 similar, and I think it likely Bombardier could offer a similar Aventra varient.
.

I imagine delivery dates will be key to who gets the orders. The dmus would need to start delivery from mid-2020 for training and December 2020 service entry.

 

[Suraggu]

With the Government's wisdom to halt further electrification and rely on diesel and Bi mode trains (when will the world's oil be depleted?), plenty of off lease EMU's will be languishing in storage sites until they will be classed as stored unserviceable.

It's a great shame that the electrification projects have been cut short as I genuinely thought we were moving forward as a nation and now look like a laughing stock compared to the rest of the world in regards to the railways.

 

[47802]

With the Government's wisdom to halt further electrification and rely on diesel and Bi mode trains (when will the world's oil be depleted?), plenty of off lease EMU's will be languishing in storage sites until they will be classed as stored unserviceable.

It's a great shame that the electrification projects have been cut short as I genuinely thought we were moving forward as a nation and now look like a laughing stock compared to the rest of the world in regards to the railways.

Well if Network Rail hadn't spent all the money on GW electrification it probably wouldn't have been cut short, when you have an electrification program that goes so massively over budget what do you expect, and its not just the cost of the actual electrification the cost of making all the GW 800's Bi-mode and HST short sets due to delays with it must be very substancial.

I think most rolling stock is costed on around a 30 year lifespan yes it may last longer, but by the time they come out of service the 323's will be over 25 years old so I don't see a problem with binning them if no other use is found for them, the units that really need alternate homes are the 458, 707, 379, 360 and any 350's the midland franchise don't use.

 

[43074]

I have to say I do think that the Desiro Verve would be a perfect candidate for the more longer distance limited stop services. The design offers longer carriages (and trains), more seats, better suited to the Intercity traveller and 125mph capability.

But also 7% more expensive than the Aventras. My money is on CAF DMUs and two different types of Aventra, one a Metro variant for Cross City, the other a medium/long distance unit with 24 metre vehicles and 110mph top speed for the London route. Not sure about Birmingham to Liverpool as a bespoke fleet hasn't been mentioned, but if the London fleet has 2+2 seating (Watford is less than 20 mins from Euston) there's no reason part of the 225 vehicle order couldn't be used.

 

[northwichcat]

What's left out of this is that WM needs to deploy a minimum of 27 extra diagrammed vehicles in December 2018 (Bromsgrove, Rugeley and Crewe via Stoke extensions) and a further 24 in December 2019 (as per the ITT). Neither of these can be satisfied, at least initially, by new trains so some cascade, possibly from GA, must still be on the cards until the new dmus and emus start arriving in 2020.

TPE should release the 350/4s in September 2018 which should meet that requirement.

 

[ABB125]

Personally, I think that the 80 new diesel vehicles will be built by CAF, and replace all the class 172s (69 vehicles) on the Snow Hill lines. (I believe this is implied in the announcement.)
The class 172s could then replace all the other diesel stock (6x153s, 17x2-car 170s and 6x3-car 170s, 58 vehicles), allowing a cascade of high quality DMUs, alone with the 12 from East Anglia.

 

[DarloRich]

The irony of the /2s (which I don't mind *that* much, as I tend to have reasonable success at getting a priority seat on the 2 side) is that they are best on services used mainly by families and groups, for which the bays of 6 are ideal, which makes them perfect for the weekend Crewes (that they tend not to run on as they lose time being only 100mph units) and not at all ideal for Tring stoppers (on which you do find them).

Christ on bike Crewe - Euston on a 250/2 is torture. They should be on Services south of Northampton imo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But also 7% more expensive than the Aventras. My money is on CAF DMUs and two different types of Aventra, one a Metro variant for Cross City, the other a medium/long distance unit with 24 metre vehicles and 110mph top speed for the London route. Not sure about Birmingham to Liverpool as a bespoke fleet hasn't been mentioned, but if the London fleet has 2+2 seating (Watford is less than 20 mins from Euston) there's no reason part of the 225 vehicle order couldn't be used.

24m vehicles and 2+2 seating would give them a nice InterCity feel anyway, particularly if the seriously classy interior scheme from the East Anglia units (dark grey seats with colour highlighting, fake wood) is used. The Scottish Class 380s, which are similar, do have a curiously IC feel for what is basically a slightly posh suburban EMU.

Yes, I'd be surprised if the WCML fleet isn't all 110mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Christ on bike Crewe - Euston on a 250/2 is torture.

Crewe-Euston on anything is torture when it's overcrowded. At quiet times, a bay of 6 to yourself (or even one with up to 3 people in it alternating sides as per the "best" occupancy of European compartments) is to me pleasant enough. At least it's fully window aligned and has a vague amount of legroom unlike the centre section airline seats in the /1 and /3. (They should follow Southern's newer units and take a row out, replacing with a side facing seat or even better a narrow luggage rack, to make the spacing a bit better).

 

[class387]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet so, what are the plans for the Abbey Branch once the 319s are gone. 350s? DMUs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet so, what are the plans for the Abbey Branch once the 319s are gone. 350s? DMUs?

I'd assume 350. No sense in DMUs under the wires way away from Brum. Marston Vale is bad enough. Though I suppose if you had DMUs on both there would be more justification for a spare outbased at Bletchley.

 

[class387]

I'd assume 350. No sense in DMUs under the wires way away from Brum. Marston Vale is bad enough. Though I suppose if you had DMUs on both there would be more justification for a spare outbased at Bletchley.

Have 350s ever worked on the Abbey Line yet?

 

[jimm]

Personally, I think that the 80 new diesel vehicles will be built by CAF, and replace all the class 172s (69 vehicles) on the Snow Hill lines. (I believe this is implied in the announcement.)
The class 172s could then replace all the other diesel stock (6x153s, 17x2-car 170s and 6x3-car 170s, 58 vehicles), allowing a cascade of high quality DMUs, alone with the 12 from East Anglia.

90 minutes between Birmingham and Hereford on board a suburban-spec 172? I certainly hope not.

 

[MK Tom]

Any thoughts on the fact the Heathrow Connect 360s will be available from next year?

I could see 2x360 replacing the 2x319 diagrams out of Euston, providing extra capacity for those busy services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have 350s ever worked on the Abbey Line yet?

No, but that's more because it would be a waste of 350s I expect. I can't see any reason they couldn't, even if minor mods would be required e.g. short platform extensions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could see 2x360 replacing the 2x319 diagrams out of Euston, providing extra capacity for those busy services.

I can see a 5-car option being useful, there are a few trains where 8 is insufficient but 12 excessive, or indeed 4 insufficient but 8 excessive. It is nice to have a bay of 6 to yourself on a couple of the peak services, but it's a bit of a waste of resources.

 

[swt_passenger]

Any thoughts on the fact the Heathrow Connect 360s will be available from next year?

Surely, based on the announcement already made they'll have enough 350s of various variants to run 12 car trains on most services, and the West Midlands and WCML(S) will never need the 360s at all?

 

[Class172]

90 minutes between Birmingham and Hereford on board a suburban-spec 172? I certainly hope not.

I mentioned previously (perhaps on the franchise announcement thread) that this would only be acceptable following a comprehensive interior re-fit to bring them up to the current standard of the 170s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mentioned previously (perhaps on the franchise announcement thread) that this would only be acceptable following a comprehensive interior re-fit to bring them up to the current standard of the 170s.

You mean "removing the ironing boards"?

The seat layout and spacing is no worse than 170s, though admittedly they aren't fitted with armrests there are spacers.

 

[Class172]

You mean "removing the ironing boards"?

The seat layout and spacing is no worse than 170s, though admittedly they aren't fitted with armrests there are spacers.

There's nothing wrong with the seating layout as such, more the fact there aren't any tables and minimal luggage rack provision.

 

[zn1]

Common sense thing would be to use Bletchley as a sub depot for Northampton and have it dedicated to the 319s, which using common sense could be increased for use on the trings & Abbey Flyers etc and low speed jobs between Npton, MKC & Euston. with 26-30 319s maintenance would be alot better etc, with dedicated fitter staff also, reliabilty will go up also...just a thought...

 

[ChrisHogan]

Personally, I think that the 80 new diesel vehicles will be built by CAF, and replace all the class 172s (69 vehicles) on the Snow Hill lines. (I believe this is implied in the announcement.)
The class 172s could then replace all the other diesel stock (6x153s, 17x2-car 170s and 6x3-car 170s, 58 vehicles), allowing a cascade of high quality DMUs, alone with the 12 from East Anglia.

No. The Snow Hill lines needs a lot more than 80 vehicles. It already has 69 plus a pair of 170/6s in the am peak (and a four-car 170/153 combination all afternoon). The announcement is clear that that the existing trains will be refurbished and supported by the extra vehicles.

 

[northwichcat]

No. The Snow Hill lines needs a lot more than 80 vehicles. It already has 69 plus a pair of 170/6s in the am peak (and a four-car 170/153 combination all afternoon). The announcement is clear that that the existing trains will be refurbished and supported by the extra vehicles.

I think Abellio are trying to correct the mistake made by DfT that LM could release a Sprinter for every 172 they received.