Speculation on Class 185 future

[IanXC]

View attachment 44898
I have just received a magazine saying that TPE are going to release 23 of the 51 ‘185s’ to northern

Another Rail fail I think.

At what stage does this fit into the Northern franchise agreement, and, in all reality what place could they have in Northern's wider rolling stock plan?

 

[td97]

I understand (could someone in the rail industry please confirm?) that they are ineligible for higher speed limits except those that apply to loco-hauled carriage stock, which I understand would be problematic on the Norwich to Liverpool route, especially east of Peterborough.

You are correct - MU speed limits do not apply to the 185 (or 390)

 

[td97]

Another Rail fail I think.
At what stage does this fit into the Northern franchise agreement, and, in all reality what place could they have in Northern's wider rolling stock plan?

Northern are due 18(?) additional trains of similar quality and performance to class 170 as part of their franchise agreement.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Another Rail fail I think.

At what stage does this fit into the Northern franchise agreement, and, in all reality what place could they have in Northern's wider rolling stock plan?

It would make sense though for the Cumbrian lines. Operate an hourly service (splitting/joining at Lancaster) to Barrow and Windermere, giving both of them a decent service and reducing route clearance requirements. 195s could then be displaced down to other routes.

The refurbished 185s are certainly well liked on the Furness line; would be popular if they stayed!

Windermere will eventually use its new magic fuel source though, leaving them the chance to expand the Connect network.

 

[43096]

Another Rail fail I think.

At what stage does this fit into the Northern franchise agreement, and, in all reality what place could they have in Northern's wider rolling stock plan?

Quite. If it's taken from Rail (other names are available!), then treat with extreme caution. They are known for dud gen!

The original plan was TPE retain 29 sets, 22 go off lease. Until something is released from a more credible source, that is what is happening.

 

[507021]

Here you go:

Richard Clinnick has said no deal has been agreed for the 185s yet, although there's at least two TOCs interested in them.

 

[IanXC]

Northern are due 18(?) additional trains of similar quality and performance to class 170 as part of their franchise agreement.

The franchise agreement talks about vehicle numbers, so your 18 is actually 36. And 22 185s are actually 66 vehicles...

 

[D365]

So these would replace the older 158’s in Northern’s fleet

I would have thought that the 185s supplement the existing and incoming stock, bearing in mind the ARN franchise did ask for 20 Turbostar equivalents to be introduced after 2020.

Wouldn't a better place be EMT's Liverpool to Norwich route and cascade the EMT's 158's to Northern to replace 150's and 156's,plus provide an opportunity to add to the existing 158 fleet?

Class 185 not suitable east of Nottingham.

Here you go:

Cheers - what magazine is this, btw?

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's obvious that Northern will keep their 4 and potentially get more when they go off-lease considering drivers and guards are already trained on them.

 

[BMIFlyer]

It's obvious that Northern will keep their 4 and potentially get more when they go off-lease considering drivers and guards are already trained on them.

Nope. Supposedly going down to only 2 on lease from May 20th - purely for Man Air to Barrow services.

TPE need the other 49 units for the expanded timetable.

 

[507021]

It's obvious that Northern will keep their 4 and potentially get more when they go off-lease considering drivers and guards are already trained on them.

It isn't. As I mentioned earlier, no deal has been agreed for the future of the off lease 185s.

 

[bonzawe]

Cheers - what magazine is this, btw?

Railway Magazine March

 

[Domh245]

You are correct - MU speed limits do not apply to the 185 (or 390)

It's the sprinter differentials (SP__) that would be more problematic as there are plenty of them on the Liverpool - Norwich route

 

[Toby Atkinson]

185s on the Cumbrian coast would be perfect. Have they ever ran up that way to Carlisle?

 

[Darandio]

185s on the Cumbrian coast would be perfect. Have they ever ran up that way to Carlisle?

Why would a heavy 100mph DMU be perfect for a 60mph railway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would a heavy 100mph DMU be perfect for a 60mph railway?

Really, an hourly Manchester Airport to Barrow and Windermere on a pure clockface timetable (Class 185) would be better separated from the Coast, with connections at Barrow for the Coast itself (held if necessary, and using Class 156s).

 

[js1000]

Liam Sumpter from Northern did say in those Youtube videos posted a few weeks back that Northern are after "any available trains" in the short term - particularly in regards to diesel trains coming spare after electrification. Sounded as if they were being quite proactive and specific at the moment rather than the generic "we are always planning for the future". The three coach 185s would be ideal given they need at least 18 more units which are equivalent to a Class 170. The problem would be the price as they are relatively new trains.

 

[D365]

The problem would be the price as they are relatively new trains.

Surely it would be to Eversholt’s benefit to agree a deal, as they could keep maintenance of the 185s relatively centralised.

 

[Jonny]

It's the sprinter differentials (SP__) that would be more problematic as there are plenty of them on the Liverpool - Norwich route

Which, according to the sectional appendix, do not cover 185s in the first place and also make a massive difference on at least Ely to Norwich (according to the sectional appendix... or at least the published edition).

 

[edwin_m]

It would make sense as a short-term plan to cover d

Which, according to the sectional appendix, do not cover 185s in the first place and also make a massive difference on at least Ely to Norwich (according to the sectional appendix... or at least the published edition).

That's exactly the concern with these units on that route (and also Birmingham-Stansted I think). However we don't know whether improving the general speed to match (or nearly) the Sprinter speed is simply a question of doing the paperwork, or needs major work on the line, or somewhere in between.

 

[whhistle]

Class 185 not suitable east of Nottingham.

PLease expand on this...

 

[LowLevel]

PLease expand on this...

It's been covered repeatedly - they're treated as a loco hauled train for speed limit purposes due to their weight and consequently would be hit by extremely severe speed restrictions in a number of places east of Nottingham. The marshy ground of the fens and around Thetford doesn't lend itself to heavy trains and the restriction for 185 vs 158 or 170 is as much as 45 mph instead of 90. Class 222 has worked once as a trial to Norwich and it's not been repeated for the same reason.

The problem is far less pronounced between Sheffield and Manchester and is mitigated by the 185 hill climbing abilities - the 185 is 70 instead of 90 for some stretches but heading towards Manchester the 158 struggles to achieve it anyway.

 

[Bantamzen]

Liam Sumpter from Northern did say in those Youtube videos posted a few weeks back that Northern are after "any available trains" in the short term - particularly in regards to diesel trains coming spare after electrification. Sounded as if they were being quite proactive and specific at the moment rather than the generic "we are always planning for the future". The three coach 185s would be ideal given they need at least 18 more units which are equivalent to a Class 170. The problem would be the price as they are relatively new trains.

I've been banging on for ages about them being a more than suitable fit for some Northern routes. Yes they are heavy and more expensive to run, but their ability to deal with the difficult conditions that the Pennine routes throw at them (and this is why they were built the way they are after all) must make them candidates to operate routes like the Cumbrian, South Pennine, Calder Valley, and even possibly & S&C and Carlisle-Newcastle routes, allowing some of the planned units for those routes to be released for strengthening elsewhere. And as Liam Sumpter says, they are on the lookout for units due to be released for the period of this franchise.

 

[notlob.divad]

Liam Sumpter from Northern did say in those Youtube videos posted a few weeks back that Northern are after "any available trains" in the short term - particularly in regards to diesel trains coming spare after electrification. Sounded as if they were being quite proactive and specific at the moment rather than the generic "we are always planning for the future". The three coach 185s would be ideal given they need at least 18 more units which are equivalent to a Class 170. The problem would be the price as they are relatively new trains.

The problem is that these are not available "in the short term". They are still required at TPE until at least the new LHCS comes in, and possibly beyond that until the new EMUs com in, if all units on South TPE and the Leeds and Hull services are going to be strengthened to 6 carriages.

That said I agree that once they become available it would make sense for them to go to Northern for many reasons and there could be some Dft support for it. Clearly the electrification delays are impacting Northern's rolling stock refurbishment project timescales, and it does appear some units are in a worse state than initially thought. Swapping 185s in excellent condition for some of the sprinters that are in less than ideal condition would make a lot of sense. Then maybe connect services could be run with either Brand New trains or 185s. With 185s focused on the Cross Pennine Connect routes, to make best use of those thirsty engines. After all, it was the DfT that prevented Northern from bidding for the 185s in the original tender.

 

[433N]

I might be a bit behind the curve but ...
I notice on abrail, the 350/4s are listed as going to WM in Dec 18, but I really don't see what 'new' is going to replace them on that timescale. Won't 185s be back on the Scotland - Manky Airports then ?

 

[Domh245]

The 350/4s will be replaced by the 397s. I'd also be wary of taking abrail as gospel. For more accurate information you should look in the franchise agreement, it'll list the dates when the various stock goes off lease

 

[43096]

I might be a bit behind the curve but ...
I notice on abrail, the 350/4s are listed as going to WM in Dec 18, but I really don't see what 'new' is going to replace them on that timescale. Won't 185s be back on the Scotland - Manky Airports then ?

Class 350/4 release from TPE depends on the new CAF 397s being in service.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The problem is that these are not available "in the short term". They are still required at TPE until at least the new LHCS comes in, and possibly beyond that until the new EMUs com in, if all units on South TPE and the Leeds and Hull services are going to be strengthened to 6 carriages.

That said I agree that once they become available it would make sense for them to go to Northern for many reasons and there could be some Dft support for it. Clearly the electrification delays are impacting Northern's rolling stock refurbishment project timescales, and it does appear some units are in a worse state than initially thought. Swapping 185s in excellent condition for some of the sprinters that are in less than ideal condition would make a lot of sense. Then maybe connect services could be run with either Brand New trains or 185s. With 185s focused on the Cross Pennine Connect routes, to make best use of those thirsty engines. After all, it was the DfT that prevented Northern from bidding for the 185s in the original tender.

WCML ‘fasts’ will be best for them imo. While it’s a relatively flat group, it will be more efficient to have the 185s than the 195s due to the acceleration rate (and already trained drivers!)

 

[Roast Veg]

As well as not being suitable for EMT east of Nottingham, the 158s also run quite a few slow services that the 185s would be ill suited to (and possibly too long for some platforms?)

 

[47802]

I've been banging on for ages about them being a more than suitable fit for some Northern routes. Yes they are heavy and more expensive to run, but their ability to deal with the difficult conditions that the Pennine routes throw at them (and this is why they were built the way they are after all) must make them candidates to operate routes like the Cumbrian, South Pennine, Calder Valley, and even possibly & S&C and Carlisle-Newcastle routes, allowing some of the planned units for those routes to be released for strengthening elsewhere. And as Liam Sumpter says, they are on the lookout for units due to be released for the period of this franchise.

While I don't doubt they could be used for some routes on the Northern Franchise, they are heavy and expensive to run as you say, the requirement for additional units in the franchise could also be largely satisfied by the Anglia 170 fleet and possibly a few more 195 carriages, in fact I wonder what the overall costs are between new 195's verses 185's.