Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[nw1]

But the option for the premium is there for those who want it...

A similar argument can be made for 1st class on some TOCs. "Well not many pay for it!" Well, yes, but if it doesn't exist, noone will pay for it!

Isn't it better though to spread the load by removing the GX premium (and introducing the Clapham stop)?

That way, Gatwick passengers are spread between the Coastway services and Brighton fasts. The Coastway services then become less overcrowded which improves travelling conditions for those travelling to Coastway destinations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

Yes given the huge psychological difference between non-stop and stopping.

I doubt that. One stop at Clapham, where non-stopping trains have to run through fairly slowly anyway due to the curvatures, is unlikely to be a big deal. It's not stopping at Streatham Common, South Croydon or Salfords!

 

[PGAT]

Trains actually whizz through Clapham Junction at line speed most of the time. It’s only really around the East Croydon/Windmill Bridge area where trains run relatively slowly due to conflicting movements, ridiculously padded timings and a 30mph limit through Platform 1.

For political reasons GTR/DfT won’t stop charging the premiums, ideally you would reintroduce the Gatwick shuttle to keep them happy and repurpose the Brighton paths into something more resourceful

 

[Bikeman78]

Because that’s the only direct service into London??

Yes. My point is that people will still take the train to Gatwick if you abolish Gatwick Express or add stops at Clapham and Croydon. A few super rich people might take a taxi but hardly anyone is going to do that. And those that would probably already do.

 

[Kite159]

I see with the new timetable there is a random ECS service from Littlehampton to Southampton via Eastleigh which sits in platform 5 at Southampton (5Q01 1217 Littlehampton O. Shed to Southampton Central & 5Q02 1539 Southampton Central to Littlehampton O. Shed) which I presume is to keep route knowledge of 'via Eastleigh' up if it ever was required due to engineering works via Netley. Took me off guard when I saw a 377 sitting in the bay platform after my medical when I was awaiting a London train

 

[swt_passenger]

I see with the new timetable there is a random ECS service from Littlehampton to Southampton via Eastleigh which sits in platform 5 at Southampton (5Q01 1217 Littlehampton O. Shed to Southampton Central & 5Q02 1539 Southampton Central to Littlehampton O. Shed) which I presume is to keep route knowledge of 'via Eastleigh' up if it ever was required due to engineering works via Netley. Took me off guard when I saw a 377 sitting in the bay platform after my medical when I was awaiting a London train

I noticed it just after the timetable change, I see that as well as reaching P5 via the down goods loop, the return trip also includes a shunt via the up goods loop, which presumably covers almost every contingency move they could think of including P4 and P1. I don’t remember anything similar running west of Southampton and into P5 in recent timetables, maybe they thought it could be learned on paper only. A few years ago there were booked reversals via the down slow west of the station, but I don’t remember any booked moves via the goods loops.

Also, after a few years of a midday Brighton passenger service via Eastleigh the only passenger service is the last departure of the day from Southampton, a 2311 short working to Littlehampton.

 

[yorkie]

I see we are back on topic now, which is good.

But just a gentle reminder that this a thread to discuss what is actually happening; we do ask that any speculation (including, but not limited to, proposals to scrap Gatwick Express services) takes place in the Speculative Discussion section, please.

Many thanks

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I noticed it just after the timetable change, I see that as well as reaching P5 via the down goods loop, the return trip also includes a shunt via the up goods loop, which presumably covers almost every contingency move they could think of including P4 and P1. I don’t remember anything similar running west of Southampton and into P5 in recent timetables, maybe they thought it could be learned on paper only. A few years ago there were booked reversals via the down slow west of the station, but I don’t remember any booked moves via the goods loops.

Also, after a few years of a midday Brighton passenger service via Eastleigh the only passenger service is the last departure of the day from Southampton, a 2311 short working to Littlehampton.

I suppose they want to standardise their timetable, and have all of their trains run via Swanwick & Woolston wherever possible. They still need the Eastleigh route as a backup, but they are trying to do it in a way where in practice, it won't affect the journeys of passengers, by essentially having it as the last train of the day, on what is (in my opinion) a de facto depot working to Littlehampton.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suppose they want to standardise their timetable, and have all of their trains run via Swanwick & Woolston wherever possible. They still need the Eastleigh route as a backup, but they are trying to do it in a way where in practice, it won't affect the journeys of passengers, by essentially having it as the last train of the day, on what is (in my opinion) a de facto depot working to Littlehampton.

Yes and there’s still a matching very early westbound ECS from Littlehampton via Eastleigh to Southampton, I think that has run for a few years now. About ten years ago, possibly more, SN came up with an idea to run the west end of the Brighton to Southampton service in a one way loop, where trains would run Fareham > Eastleigh > Parkway > Central > Swanwick > Fareham. I think it made it into a track access application, but was eventually abandoned, or turned down for some reason I forget now.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yes given the huge psychological difference between non-stop and stopping.


That is the point of the train. More comfortable. Not every train should be running crush loaded and only adds to my point above.

I think the main psychological difference is between direct and changing - I doubt many people know whether, and how many times, their train stops; they just know it's direct from A to B.

The thing about many of the GX trains, is not that they're comfortable, but that they're virtually empty; much as I personally enjoy that, I also realise it's not a sensible use of resources in a rational world. [Yes, I know...]. Hence they ought either to have much less of a price premium, or pick up at Clapham J too. (Whatever combination is suggested by the modelling to be best for moving at least a few passengers on that route on to them from other services.)

Because that’s the only direct service into London??

Indeed, it's the "direct" bit which is important, not the stopping.

PS - edit: Woops - sorry mods - I wrote this note before spotting the reminder that we'd strayed...

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Yes and there’s still a matching very early westbound ECS from Littlehampton via Eastleigh to Southampton, I think that has run for a few years now. About ten years ago, possibly more, SN came up with an idea to run the west end of the Brighton to Southampton service in a one way loop, where trains would run Fareham > Eastleigh > Parkway > Central > Swanwick > Fareham. I think it made it into a track access application, but was eventually abandoned, or turned down for some reason I forget now.

Would that have been a slightly more regular service than just a journey to keep up route knowledge. I suppose that could have been a good idea, particularly since now they could run it in both directions with 2 tph, thus maintaining route knowledge in the reverse direction. However, the main problem with that idea is how many reversals that would require on one service, at 2, and 1 reversal (as Southern already have to deal with at Eastbourne on every single journey towards Hastings) is inconvenient enough, hence why commuter operators like southern would ideally want to avoid that wherever possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jun 2024 ==

I think the main psychological difference is between direct and changing - I doubt many people know whether, and how many times, their train stops; they just know it's direct from A to B.

The thing about many of the GX trains, is not that they're comfortable, but that they're virtually empty; much as I personally enjoy that, I also realise it's not a sensible use of resources in a rational world. [Yes, I know...]. Hence they ought either to have much less of a price premium, or pick up at Clapham J too. (Whatever combination is suggested by the modelling to be best for moving at least a few passengers on that route on to them from other services.)



Indeed, it's the "direct" bit which is important, not the stopping.

PS - edit: Woops - sorry mods - I wrote this note before spotting the reminder that we'd strayed...

You are absolutely right with all of those points, but I would recommend that you maybe suggest that stuff on some other forum, given that there's already been a warning for talking about irrelevant stuff, so I don't want you to end up getting warnings in your notifications.

 

[swt_passenger]

B

Would that have been a slightly more regular service than just a journey to keep up route knowledge. I suppose that could have been a good idea, particularly since now they could run it in both directions with 2 tph, thus maintaining route knowledge in the reverse direction.

IIRC that would have been the normal service, the aim then was to make Southampton Airport accessible with an hourly call, so arrive via Eastleigh and depart towards Southampton. IIRC they could have done it easily in the down direction, but both directions would need an extra unit to be allocated, with a very long dwell at Southampton. As I say though it never happened, so it’s probably more for the history books.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

B

IIRC that would have been the normal service, the aim then was to make Southampton Airport accessible with an hourly call, so arrive via Eastleigh and depart towards Southampton. IIRC they could have done it easily in the down direction, but both directions would need an extra unit to be allocated, with a very long dwell at Southampton. As I say though it never happened, so it’s probably more for the history books.

I suppose that could have been good for passengers, but the only thing is that it could cause Swanwick (and Woolston now) to lose out on some services, given more trains would avoid them in one direction, so either you would need to fit more trains in, or maybe try and convince GWR to call there to cover the loss in Southern services into Southampton (if you are going to have the Southern call be eastbound only, and you are having the train going to Southampton Airport Parkway first). Also, if you are going to make it a regular service, that would probably make a special chord avoiding Eastleigh desirable, given that would eliminate the reversal required at Eastleigh, and thus improve journey times.
However, do you have any idea as to what would have happened to the London Victoria to Southampton service (the one that has just been withdrawn), and whether that would still go straight to Southampton Central, or called additionally at Southampton Airport Parkway?
I think this idea for a chord avoiding Eastleigh has been discussed before somewhere, given it would be of benefit to Southern, GWR and SWR, given all of them could hypothetically use Eastleigh to Fareham as a diversionary route if the main coastway line is closed, with GWR also operating limited services via Eastleigh.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suppose that could have been good for passengers, but the only thing is that it could cause Swanwick (and Woolston now) to lose out on some services, given more trains would avoid them in one direction, so either you would need to fit more trains in, or maybe try and convince GWR to call there to cover the loss in Southern services into Southampton (if you are going to have the Southern call be eastbound only, and you are having the train going to Southampton Airport Parkway first)..

I’m fairly sure the Victoria service was unaffected, as you note Swanwick would had a misbalanced service if it had ever happened.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I suppose that could have been good for passengers, but the only thing is that it could cause Swanwick (and Woolston now) to lose out on some services, given more trains would avoid them in one direction, so either you would need to fit more trains in, or maybe try and convince GWR to call there to cover the loss in Southern services into Southampton (if you are going to have the Southern call be eastbound only, and you are having the train going to Southampton Airport Parkway first). Also, if you are going to make it a regular service, that would probably make a special chord avoiding Eastleigh desirable, given that would eliminate the reversal required at Eastleigh, and thus improve journey times.
However, do you have any idea as to what would have happened to the London Victoria to Southampton service (the one that has just been withdrawn), and whether that would still go straight to Southampton Central, or called additionally at Southampton Airport Parkway?
I think this idea for a chord avoiding Eastleigh has been discussed before somewhere, given it would be of benefit to Southern, GWR and SWR, given all of them could hypothetically use Eastleigh to Fareham as a diversionary route if the main coastway line is closed, with GWR also operating limited services via Eastleigh.

There is unlikely to be time in the GWR schedules for an additional stop, they are quite constrained at both Southampton and Portsmouth in terms of pathing and there is little slack in the timings. You’d need a natural 2.5 to 3 mins of spare time in the critical section to accommodate a stop (allowing for deceleration, acceleration and the dwell itself) and that time just isn’t there, except late at night when they skip Cosham.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

There is unlikely to be time in the GWR schedules for an additional stop, they are quite constrained at both Southampton and Portsmouth in terms of pathing and there is little slack in the timings. You’d need a natural 2.5 to 3 mins of spare time in the critical section to accommodate a stop (allowing for deceleration, acceleration and the dwell itself) and that time just isn’t there, except late at night when they skip Cosham.

That's the thing. In such a scenario in which such a service was envisioned, it would likely require a pretty radical change of all services in the area. With GWR, they would need to work out a way of lengthening the turnaround time, so you could in turn add a stop at Swanwick. How that would work however would be compex, with one way potentially being to terminate at Portsmouth & Southsea instead of Portsmouth Harbour, which is of course not practical or politically possible for a major regional service. In general, other changes, maybe to SWR would be needed, but its all completely hypothetical, given its probably just easier to advertise more connections at Southampton Central to get to Southampton Airport rather than try and get awkward Southern trains there. In a world where we should be promoting more train travel as an alternative to domestic flights offered at Southampton, its a politically bad idea.

Overall however, I do think the idea of GWR calling at Swanwick maybe could be looked at in the long term, because it is a pretty busy station thesedays by Southampton standards. Calling at Woolston has also been suggested by some Southampton official when Southern added the stop, but the viability just depends on whether it proves a popular stop with Southern travellers, because if that doesn't really happen, they'll probably end up removing that stop from some services in due course.

 

[mavsk]

Yes and there’s still a matching very early westbound ECS from Littlehampton via Eastleigh to Southampton, I think that has run for a few years now. About ten years ago, possibly more, SN came up with an idea to run the west end of the Brighton to Southampton service in a one way loop, where trains would run Fareham > Eastleigh > Parkway > Central > Swanwick > Fareham. I think it made it into a track access application, but was eventually abandoned, or turned down for some reason I forget now.

My memory is that there was a clash with paths for additional/retimed(?) XC services.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

My memory is that there was a clash with paths for additional/retimed(?) XC services.

That's the issue with any relatively busy section like the South West Main Line, which also carries freight services, and has to carry West Coastway services into Southampton. It's just a pity that its not like at Brighton, where they are mostly operationally separate from the Brighton Main Line, as well as the need to accomodate both through and terminating services, or in the case of Southern's ancient proposal, a reversing service (which would be needed at Southampton, and a relatively quick one if its going to be the same passenger service continuing through Southampton Central like that. After reading through this forum, in hindsight, the proposal is for the birds, simple as that.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Are West Coastway punters just more stupid than the East Coastway? No similar issues have arisen on the East, where these carriages have been in use since the start of Covid.

I think this question should be answered with an affirmative. They're definitely not as bright on the West

 

[swt_passenger]

My memory is that there was a clash with paths for additional/retimed(?) XC services.

Yes, that sounds right, the XC extensions were introduced at about the right time.

 

[nw1]

deleted

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Today, travelling from Chichester took Portsmouth Harbour, i noticed a problem with terminating trains at Chichester, because i saw a terminated train from Brighton on platform 2, but i also noticed that the Southampton service behind was literally being held up outside of the station, which in turn was holding up a Portsmouth Harbour service in due course. I literally then saw a driver come out of the cafe, and drive it out, causing a 5 minute delay to both of the services held outside the station, as a result of his own decision to grab a snack, despite the fact he caused a 5 minute delay by doing so. Has anyone noticed any such problems with using Chichester as a terminating station like that.

 

[30907]

Today, travelling from Chichester took Portsmouth Harbour, i noticed a problem with terminating trains at Chichester, because i saw a terminated train from Brighton on platform 2, but i also noticed that the Southampton service behind was literally being held up outside of the station, which in turn was holding up a Portsmouth Harbour service in due course. I literally then saw a driver come out of the cafe, and drive it out, causing a 5 minute delay to both of the services held outside the station, as a result of his own decision to grab a snack, despite the fact he caused a 5 minute delay by doing so. Has anyone noticed any such problems with using Chichester as a terminating station like that.

As the train concerned departed on time from P1 at 1533, it must have shunted from P2 a couple of minutes earlier, so I am a little surprised that the down service due at 1533 was delayed as much as it was.

There seems to be ample margin for the shunt (via the reception road).

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

As the train concerned departed on time from P1 at 1533, it must have shunted from P2 a couple of minutes earlier, so I am a little surprised that the down service due at 1533 was delayed as much as it was.

There seems to be ample margin for the shunt (via the reception road).

While there is clearly time for a shunt, it does need to be done as soon as possible, given that right behind the service was 2 other trains which both needed to use the same platform as the terminating train. This is a result of a having to shunt trains like that out of Chichester, which really doesnt work that well as a teminus. Add in tight spacing of those 3 trains, and you have a recipe for disaster (or at least delays and/or cancellations). I was talking to someone on the ticket barrier outside of Chichester about how well the timetable change is going, and he simply told me it hasnt gone well, mainly due to spacing of trains.
Ive also talked to someone at Littlehampton station, who seems to have the same viewpoint, in thats its not a good change, mainly due to the lack of westbound services, which i can see because Chichester is actually the most popular destination from Littlehampton, so cutting down the possible routes is really a lose lose situation.
I myself havent been on other routes since the change (with today being the first record in my train number record since 27 May), but overall, i havent seen the clear benefits of the changes yet.

 

[JonathanH]

Ive also talked to someone at Littlehampton station, who seems to have the same viewpoint, in thats its not a good change, mainly due to the lack of westbound services, which i can see because Chichester is actually the most popular destination from Littlehampton, so cutting down the possible routes is really a lose lose situation.

The original intention was 2tph via Littlehampton but it seems that a need to keep a direct service from Brighton to Portsmouth was deemed necessary despite the timetable being written around easy changes for that journey.

 

[PGAT]

If demand necessitates it then one or two units can be found to extend the Barnham shuttle

 

[paul1609]

The original intention was 2tph via Littlehampton but it seems that a need to keep a direct service from Brighton to Portsmouth was deemed necessary despite the timetable being written around easy changes for that journey.

I think youd have just about got away with that if Portsmouth to Waterloo SWR services had been restored to pre-pandemic levels but only 2 tph on the direct line off peak at XX20 and XX38 northbound wasnt viable for the Pompey to Havant flows (and changing on to the Southampton Brighton trains).

 

[JonathanH]

If demand necessitates it then one or two units can be found to extend the Barnham shuttle

I'd imagine that the problem is that demand doesn't necessitate it, it is just a matter of passenger convenience, although it might be noted that there is still 4tph from Bognor to Barnham.

 

[paul1609]

I'd imagine that the problem is that demand doesn't necessitate it, it is just a matter of passenger convenience, although it might be noted that there is still 4tph from Bognor to Barnham.

Unfortunately on Coastway West services its largely an issue of operating conveniece and stuck in a rut 1950s railway attitudes outweighting passenger convenience, is there anybody for instance that doesnt believe there would be sufficient demand for a Brighton/ Bournemouth/poole service.

 

[LA50041]

Today, travelling from Chichester took Portsmouth Harbour, i noticed a problem with terminating trains at Chichester, because i saw a terminated train from Brighton on platform 2, but i also noticed that the Southampton service behind was literally being held up outside of the station, which in turn was holding up a Portsmouth Harbour service in due course. I literally then saw a driver come out of the cafe, and drive it out, causing a 5 minute delay to both of the services held outside the station, as a result of his own decision to grab a snack, despite the fact he caused a 5 minute delay by doing so. Has anyone noticed any such problems with using Chichester as a terminating station like that.

what time of the day was this?
I see mentioned 1553 to Brighton but it isn't obvious what trains were delayed by the shunts to form this train running on time?

 

[JonathanH]

Unfortunately on Coastway West services its largely an issue of operating conveniece and stuck in a rut 1950s railway attitudes outweighting passenger convenience, is there anybody for instance that doesnt believe there would be sufficient demand for a Brighton/ Bournemouth/poole service.

There was a Hove to Bournemouth service for a number of years at the turn of the century. There is only so much that can be done with a two track railway. Even with the cheapest middle distance fares in the country, the demand in the grand scheme of things is fairly limited for spending nearly three hours on one train to get from Brighton to Poole.

The Coastway West timetable is an example of trying to offer the best timetable within the constraints.