Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West

[JonathanH]

Bruges

Is that a nickname for Burgess Hill?

 

[PedroHav]

Yes.

The 387s are booked to run all the Brighton to Southampton services from the June timetable change.

Yesterday I travelled on 377s to and from Brighton so not all are 387s booked to run on the route

 

[Bikeman78]

Yesterday I travelled on 377s to and from Brighton so not all are 387s booked to run on the route

I think four of the eight diagrams are 387s.

 

[Magdalia]

A service from Victoria to Brighton calling at Clapham, Croydon, Gatwick, Haywards Heath and Burgess Hill would be nice.

Between East Croydon and Brighton that already exists. and also calls at Three Bridges. It runs to and from Cambridge with easy interchanges at East Croydon for Clapham Junction and Victoria.

 

[LA50041]

I think four of the eight diagrams are 387s.

Correct

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Bruges would be nice.

I, too, would like to go direct from Haywards Heath to that fantastic Belgian city. I would not like to share my train with the Croydon and Clapham riff-raff that eat up long-distance capacity for the sake of travelling 1 stop.

 

[MrJeeves]

I, too, would like to go direct from Haywards Heath to that fantastic Belgian city. I would not like to share my train with the Croydon and Clapham riff-raff that eat up long-distance capacity for the sake of travelling 1 stop.

This was also all I could think of.

I think four of the eight diagrams are 387s.

The GTR track access doc didn't give that impression! Good to hear comfy seats are still available on half the services...

 

[swt_passenger]

The GTR track access doc didn't give that impression! Good to hear comfy seats are still available on half the services...

The stock allocations shown in the track access application will almost certainly be the intended final steady state, and that was probably never going to be achieved until after the 379 reactivation is complete.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed, although I think it would be useful if they did call at Clapham Junction and East Croydon. That would only in reality add on around 2-3 minutes, when comparing Coastway bound services from London Victoria (which take 34 minutes) to the Gatwick Express (which takes around 32 minutes).

Personally Id like to see the unecessary stops at Clapham and East Croydon removed on the Coastway services. There absolutely no reason for a Croydon stop since the Gatwick Airport station redevelopment. Its no longer destination for people outside London. Maybe retain one stop per hour at Clapham Junction for each coastway/ Portsmouth service to give access to the West London Line and Westfield.

 

[Magdalia]

Personally Id like to see the unecessary stops at Clapham and East Croydon removed on the Coastway services. There absolutely no reason for a Croydon stop since the Gatwick Airport station redevelopment

Definitely not. I often change trains between Thameslink and West Coastway: East Croydon is far more suitable for this than Gatwick Airport. East Croydon is nearly always same island platform, Gatwick Airport nearly always involves crossing the bridge. East Croydon also has facilities such as refreshments and toilets on all platforms, whereas only platforms 1 and 2 at Gatwick Airport have these facilities. There are fewer people with cases getting in the way at East Croydon than Gatwick Airport. In summary changing trains at Gatwick Airport is rubbish, it is a station designed for people getting to and from the airport, not for changing trains.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry, was a bit unclear there. A service from Victoria to Brighton calling at Clapham, Croydon, Gatwick, Haywards and Bruges would be nice.

Dear lord, that’s a diversion if there ever was one!

 

[AlbertBeale]

I think GX now purely exists as a tourist trap.

Wasn't that always the case?

View attachment 160544
One of these kinds, which i have used legally on services to Littlehampton to visit my grandparents who live in Littlehampton (via Hove), and i have no doubt they would have been valid on former Southern services from London Victoria to Brighton, but i have never tried then on Gatwick Express services to brighton.

Aha - sorry, I see what you mean. But how on earth could this ticket not be valid on any train on any valid route between London and Bognor (given there are no restrictions shown on the ticket) ... and surely via Brighton is valid? (Hence any service from London to Brighton is.)

It used to be the case that seasons, anytimes, off peak tickets and super off peak travelcards from south of Balcombe and Christ Hospital were routed "Any Permitted" and valid on the Gatwick Express. North of there the tickets were cheaper than the Gatwick Express to London Victoria so were routed "not gatwick Express" as were the Super Off Peak Day Returns (ex Pricebusters) to London Victoria/ Bridge from the South Coast.

Surely it still is the case that there are various Super Off-Peak tickets from the London area to places south of Gatwick which are cheaper than most/all unrestricted walk-up singles from Victoria to Gatwick ... and many are also valid on the Gatwick Express including to "break your journey" at Gatwick...

I just aimed a tweet at Southern and Gatwick Express to see whether that is still the case, so let's just see if these rules have survived to the present day.

Since the ticket doesn't say it isn't, then it obviously - to me at any rate - is valid. So don't tempt fate!

Sorry, was a bit unclear there. A service from Victoria to Brighton calling at Clapham, Croydon, Gatwick, Haywards and Bruges would be nice.

Yes - especially the Bruges call.... I'd even pay the rip-off GX premium fare if I could break my journey to Brighton at Bruges.

NB - given that the fast London-Brightons are so underutilised (at times London-Brighton on GX can give you almost a carriage to yourself, certainly south of Gatwick), it would make sense in use-of-capacity terms to have one extra stop (probably Clapham Junction), since lots of other services from there down the BML are so busy. But if they stay as they are, I'm not going to complain about having a relaxed and spacious ride to Brighton. I agree that CJ is better than E Croydon for an extra stop, since you've got all the T/L services to interchange with at the latter.

 

[MrJeeves]

The issue with Clapham stops, as I understand it, is that the paths simply wouldn't be possible to fit in if they called?

Part of the benefit to tourists paying the premium and people using the service to commute, as Albert says, is that there is more room than other services. You get to spread out rather than look and feel like sardines. That's especially valuable when you're rushing to the airport, stressed and in a panic (often probably for no real reason).

 

[PGAT]

Surely paths can be found if 4tph worth of capacity from before COVID is no longer being used (Gatwick shuttle and the Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner)

 

[MrJeeves]

Surely paths can be found if 4tph worth of capacity from before COVID is no longer being used (Gatwick shuttle and the Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner)

The GX paths were used to run separate Ore/Littlehampton services instead of dividing them at Haywards Heath.

 

[paul1609]

Surely paths can be found if 4tph worth of capacity from before COVID is no longer being used (Gatwick shuttle and the Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner)

Think the Gatwick paths were taken by the coastway services getting their own trains rather than splitting at Haywards heath.

 

[PGAT]

I could’ve sworn the Southern branded Victoria - Brighton services, which co-existed with the Gatwick Express services to Brighton were sacrificed in order to allow the Littlehampton and Ore trains to run on their own

 

[Minstral25]

The issue with Clapham stops, as I understand it, is that the paths simply wouldn't be possible to fit in if they called?

Surely paths can be found if 4tph worth of capacity from before COVID is no longer being used (Gatwick shuttle and the Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner)

My understanding is that since the Timetable change in 2018 the GX Brighton paths could call at Clapham, before 2018 that was not the case. But it is irrelevant to date as DfT and Gatwick Airport would not allow GTR to change for political reasons.

I could’ve sworn the Southern branded Victoria - Brighton services, which co-existed with the Gatwick Express services to Brighton were sacrificed in order to allow the Littlehampton and Ore trains to run on their own

Yes they were. Brighton still gets 6 trains per hour from London - 4 from Thameslink and 2 fast from Victoria.

 

[paul1609]

My understanding is that since the Timetable change in 2018 the GX Brighton paths could call at Clapham, before 2018 that was not the case. But it is irrelevant to date as DfT and Gatwick Airport would not allow GTR to change for political reasons.



Yes they were. Brighton still gets 6 trains per hour from London - 4 from Thameslink and 2 fast from Victoria.

Were the Victoria to Brighton stopping service 2 per hour? I can't remember. However the 2 track section between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Haywards Heath now has 6 x Brighton, 2x Eastbourne and 2x Littlehampton with some trains calling at Balcombe itself that must be close to capacity Id have thought.
South of Haywards Heath the Littlehampton services used to be nonstop to Hove but now call at every station. The express Brighton services also used to overtake the splitters at Haywards Heath.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Were the Victoria to Brighton stopping service 2 per hour? I can't remember. However the 2 track section between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Haywards Heath now has 6 x Brighton, 2x Eastbourne and 2x Littlehampton with some trains calling at Balcombe itself that must be close to capacity Id have thought.
South of Haywards Heath the Littlehampton services used to be nonstop to Hove but now call at every station. The express Brighton services also used to overtake the splitters at Haywards Heath.

That's right. The 2 former Southern London Victoria to Brighton train paths are now used to run trains to Eastbourne and Ore, and in turn, replace the division at Haywards Heath. However, because Hassocks would otherwise have lost its services to London Victoria, that's why they added the stop to the London Victoria to Littlehampton service, alongside extra stops at Preston Park and Burgess Hill as compensation for the loss of the London Victoria to Brighton service. Another compensation was adding Haywards Heath to Gatwick Express, to improve the frequency of trains to London Victoria, and retain the same number of pre-COVID trains to Brighton. Overall, the Gatwick Express would have to go to reinstate the Southern London Victoria to Brighton service, and the only other alternative would be to reinstate train divisions at Haywards Heath, which would just bring back overcrowing to both of the Coastway lines.

My understanding is that since the Timetable change in 2018 the GX Brighton paths could call at Clapham, before 2018 that was not the case. But it is irrelevant to date as DfT and Gatwick Airport would not allow GTR to change for political reasons.



Yes they were. Brighton still gets 6 trains per hour from London - 4 from Thameslink and 2 fast from Victoria.

It is absolutely true that the Gatwick Express cannot go for political reasons, at least under the current DfT, but probably into the future unless some technical upgrade could be done to the Southern Network to enable faster trains, which is definately not going to happen any time soon. However, it is true they could call at Clapham Junction, simply by having the trains depart from Victoria slightly earlier.

Surely paths can be found if 4tph worth of capacity from before COVID is no longer being used (Gatwick shuttle and the Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner)

Absolutely, but not under the anti-rail DfT, which would almost certainly block the reintroduction of services making use of those paths. It is a long story, and I would suggest you read up on the whole story, but basically government-mandated cuts simply have blocked improvement on much of the whole railway network. Fortunately, they did not block the West Coastway line changes recently, but the greater number of units required does require compensation from other parts of the network, which may require some lesser used services to be cut to free up resources, particularly after the scrapping of rolling stock without replacement (including the class 313, and the Class 455, which would have operated the Victoria to Caterham/Tattenham Corner services in all likelihood).

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Part of the benefit to tourists paying the premium and people using the service to commute, as Albert says, is that there is more room than other services. You get to spread out rather than look and feel like sardines. That's especially valuable when you're rushing to the airport, stressed and in a panic (often probably for no real reason).

Exactly. There are a lot of people that simply would not use rail at all if this option did not exist. It grows the market.

 

[Bikeman78]

The issue with Clapham stops, as I understand it, is that the paths simply wouldn't be possible to fit in if they called?

In the down direction, that is not true. They are given an astonishing 7.5 minutes from Victoria to passing Clapham Junction. To put that into context, 20 years ago, trains stopping at Clapham Junction were booked to depart six minutes after leaving Victoria. A humble 4VEP could easily manage under five minutes start to stop. The fastest recorded start to stop was 4m 2s by a 4SUB back in 1970.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2024 ==

Part of the benefit to tourists paying the premium and people using the service to commute, as Albert says, is that there is more room than other services. You get to spread out rather than look and feel like sardines. That's especially valuable when you're rushing to the airport, stressed and in a panic (often probably for no real reason).

Clearly a lot of people are not paying the premium. I have been on 12 car Southern trains that follow a Gatwick Express and hundreds of people get off at Gatwick. If the non stop train was the same price then the conditions on the Southern trains would probably be more pleasant.

 

[MrJeeves]

Clearly a lot of people are not paying the premium. I have been on 12 car Southern trains that follow a Gatwick Express and hundreds of people get off at Gatwick. If the non stop train was the same price then the conditions on the Southern trains would probably be more pleasant.

But the option for the premium is there for those who want it...

A similar argument can be made for 1st class on some TOCs. "Well not many pay for it!" Well, yes, but if it doesn't exist, noone will pay for it!

 

[PGAT]

But the option for the premium is there for those who want it...

A similar argument can be made for 1st class on some TOCs. "Well not many pay for it!" Well, yes, but if it doesn't exist, noone will pay for it!

I think this is a bit disingenuous because most of the tourists paying for it are unfamiliar with the network and certainly would not have paid the premium if they knew Southern was 2 minutes slower! Same goes with first class: precisely nobody would weigh up the options and evaluate that first class on a 377 or 387 is worth the money if they knew it is exactly the same as standard class. It also won't protect you in the event of overcrowding.

 

[MrJeeves]

if they knew it is exactly the same as standard class

Don't forget about the antimacassar!!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

However there are some people that, no matter how small that difference is, will simply choose a different mode of transport if the option is not there. For a forum that purports to want rail growth, it is always keen on means of trimming the market for the sake of decisions that look pretty

 

[AlbertBeale]

Exactly. There are a lot of people that simply would not use rail at all if this option did not exist. It grows the market.

Do you really mean that if the GX called at Clapham Junction, rather than being non-stop Victoria-Gatwick, any significant number of people wouldn't travel to the airport by train? I find that hard to believe.

Clearly a lot of people are not paying the premium. I have been on 12 car Southern trains that follow a Gatwick Express and hundreds of people get off at Gatwick. If the non stop train was the same price then the conditions on the Southern trains would probably be more pleasant.

Yes, I've also seen green Victoria-Gatwick trains jammed, and red ones more than half empty... and much as I personally love having lots of space on the red trains when going down to Brighton (often being one of only 2 or 3 people in the carriage), it really does seem a less-than-useful approach to resources and to overall/average comfort. (If people want space going to the airport, and can afford to pay a premium price, there's always first class on the GX!)

A thought about GX long being primarily a way of ripping off tourists ... given this is the case, and given that many tourists will find out more about the rail options once they're here, is there any evidence that northbound airport-London passengers are more likely to use GX than ones travelling to the airport?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Do you really mean that if the GX called at Clapham Junction, rather than being non-stop Victoria-Gatwick, any significant number of people wouldn't travel to the airport by train?

Yes given the huge psychological difference between non-stop and stopping.

Yes, I've also seen green Victoria-Gatwick trains jammed, and red ones more than half empty... and much as I personally love having lots of space on the red trains when going down to Brighton (often being one of only 2 or 3 people in the carriage), it really does seem a less-than-useful approach to resources and to overall/average comfort. (If people want space going to the airport, and can afford to pay a premium price, there's always first class on the GX!)

That is the point of the train. More comfortable. Not every train should be running crush loaded and only adds to my point above.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes given the huge psychological difference between non-stop and stopping

Stansted Express stops en route and it is still very popular. To the extent that it has gone back to four trains per hour.

 

[PGAT]

Stansted Express stops en route and it is still very popular. To the extent that it has gone back to four trains per hour.

Because that’s the only direct service into London??