Southern England EMU’S

[norbitonflyer]

Then in the late 1970s the SR-type 2HAPs were all declassified and used on the Central Division as 2 SAPs until their withdrawal. (I once travelled on one from Streatham Hill to Victoria.)

They were my regular commute in my first job (Herne Hill to Holborn Viaduct).The ex-First Class compartments (and the odd half-compartment at the driving end) were particularly popular.

MLV's wouldn't have had problems with gapping, as they had batteries (primarily for use on non-electrified quaysides). (Was the transition from battery to juice-rail-power automatic, or did the driver have to operate a switch?)

I recall reading of one incident when a boat train had to start from Dover Priory because of a power failure at Marine, so an MLV was pressed in to service to shuttle intending passengers up the hill. Standing room only - obviously - but it wasn't far.

 

[DustyBin]

MLV's wouldn't have had problems with gapping, as they had batteries (primarily for use on non-electrified quaysides). (Was the transition from battery to juice-rail-power automatic, or did the driver have to operate a switch?)

Good point (other's have confirmed it was braking that was the issue). I imagine the driver has to switch over although I could be wrong. I wonder if the pick up shoes have to be raised/retracted as well?

I recall reading of one incident when a boat train had to start from Dover Priory because of a power failure at Marine, so an MLV was pressed in to service to shuttle intending passengers up the hill. Standing room only - obviously - but it wasn't far.

Any bashers on board must have been delighted!

 

[AY1975]

There's a video on Youtube recorded at Holborn Viaduct station on the morning of Friday 26 January 1990, the last day it was open for traffic. Some SAPs visible.

There were no SAPs left by 1990: the BR design SAPs were converted back to HAPs around 1980 as mentioned above, and I think the last SR design SAPs were disbanded by about 1983.

What you think are SAPs are probably CAPs. At that time they had one declassified Driving Trailer Composite and one still with First Class, but in their last few years of service they ran with both DTCs declassified.

Also visible in that video at about 1 min 16 seconds and again at about 2m26sec are 4-COMs (=COMpartment EPB). They were SR design EPBs reformed with two compartment trailers, formed after a young woman was murdered in a compartment on an off-peak train in 1988 (see also this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ended-the-compartment-carriages-on-sr.162277/). The compartment trailers had red stripes above the doors and windows to warn passengers who wished to avoid them, and were used only in peak hours wherever possible.

I think the last 4-COMs were withdrawn by about 1991 or 1992 although a small number of unrefurbished BR design 2-EPBs with compartments (also marked by red stripes above the windows) remained in service almost until the last EPBs were withdrawn in March 1995.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There were no SAPs left by 1990: the BR design SAPs were converted back to HAPs around 1980 as mentioned above, and I think the last SR design SAPs were disbanded by about 1983.

What you think are SAPs are probably CAPs. At that time they had one declassified Driving Trailer Composite and one still with First Class, but in their last few years of service they ran with both DTCs declassified.

Also visible in that video at about 1 min 16 seconds and again at about 2m26sec are 4-COMs (=COMpartment EPB). They were SR design EPBs reformed with two compartment trailers, formed after a young woman was murdered in a compartment on an off-peak train in 1988 (see also this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ended-the-compartment-carriages-on-sr.162277/). The compartment trailers had red stripes above the doors and windows to warn passengers who wished to avoid them, and were used only in peak hours wherever possible.

I think the last 4-COMs were withdrawn by about 1991 or 1992 although a small number of unrefurbished BR design 2-EPBs with compartments (also marked by red stripes above the windows) remained in service almost until the last EPBs were withdrawn in March 1995.

The motor coaches from the SR SAPs were re-used with ex-$SUB trailers to form further 4 EPBs

CAPs could be recognised because the former driving ends in the motor coaches did not have yellow ends - look at 2:03 for an example. They were classified 413 (class 4x3 signifying 4-car outer suburban sets, like the 4VEPs class 423) and numbered in the 32xx and 33xx ranges (depending on whether they were converted from 414/2s or 414/3s).

The 4COMs were renumbered into the 55xx range.

 

[AY1975]

Not sure whether this belongs in this thread or warrants a thread of its own, but why did they build both BR and SR design versions of the EPBs and HAPs? Why not build only the BR or only the SR version?

On the other hand, why were there no SR design versions of the CEPs, CIGs and the like? And why were there no SR design DEMUs?

I suppose if there had been an SR version of the Class 205 DEMUs, they would have had a Driving Trailer Composite with a full length side corridor just like the SR design HAPs.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure whether this belongs in this thread or warrants a thread of its own, but why did they build both BR and SR design versions of the EPBs and HAPs? Why not build only the BR or only the SR version?

On the other hand, why were there no SR design versions of the CEPs, CIGs and the like? And why were there no SR design DEMUs?

I suppose if there had been an SR version of the Class 205 DEMUs, they would have had a Driving Trailer Composite with a full length side corridor just like the SR design HAPs.

I think it was just an update to the standard BR design for the EPB's. Most of the important bits, such as breaking and controls were still compatible.

In terms of CEP's, their fore-runners were the COR's and whilst the CEP's had a lot of which new equipment, the layouts were very similar.

 

[DustyBin]

I think it was just an update to the standard BR design for the EPB's. Most of the important bits, such as breaking and controls were still compatible.

In terms of CEP's, their fore-runners were the COR's and whilst the CEP's had a lot of which new equipment, the layouts were very similar.

Yes, I've always presumed that the BR design units came about simply because the MK1 became the standard design at that point, the SR design units having pre-dated it. The CEPs for example were from the MK1 era so were BR design by default.

 

[randyrippley]

Not sure whether this belongs in this thread or warrants a thread of its own, but why did they build both BR and SR design versions of the EPBs and HAPs? Why not build only the BR or only the SR version?

On the other hand, why were there no SR design versions of the CEPs, CIGs and the like? And why were there no SR design DEMUs?

I suppose if there had been an SR version of the Class 205 DEMUs, they would have had a Driving Trailer Composite with a full length side corridor just like the SR design HAPs.

I read somewhere it was down to the availability of underframes - the SR body jigs reused short recycled underframes, the BR used new long ones

 

[30907]

I read somewhere it was down to the availability of underframes - the SR body jigs reused short recycled underframes, the BR used new long ones

Yes - there was about a 2ft difference for suburban (not for corridor) stock.
The 6S "short" DEMUs were so built because the 57ft underframes were originally to have been hauled stock.

 

[The exile]

Not sure whether this belongs in this thread or warrants a thread of its own, but why did they build both BR and SR design versions of the EPBs and HAPs? Why not build only the BR or only the SR version?

On the other hand, why were there no SR design versions of the CEPs, CIGs and the like? And why were there no SR design DEMUs?

I suppose if there had been an SR version of the Class 205 DEMUs, they would have had a Driving Trailer Composite with a full length side corridor just like the SR design HAPs.

Is it worth pointing out here that "SR" here = Southern Railway, not Southern Region - so it's purely a matter of the "BR" EPBs and HAPs being later-built "re-designs" of older, SR-designed stock.

 

[Taunton]

Not sure whether this belongs in this thread or warrants a thread of its own, but why did they build both BR and SR design versions of the EPBs and HAPs? Why not build only the BR or only the SR version?

On the other hand, why were there no SR design versions of the CEPs, CIGs and the like? And why were there no SR design DEMUs?

I suppose if there had been an SR version of the Class 205 DEMUs, they would have had a Driving Trailer Composite with a full length side corridor just like the SR design HAPs.

Covered in post #27 above. The "SR" design 2-car units, despite the coaches being numbered as if pre-nationalisation with an S suffix, were actually newer than the BR Mk 1 pattern ones, being built in the later 1950s. It was desired to reuse the 1930s underframes of the 2-NOLs, which had old, life-expired wooden pre-grouping bodies on them, but the BR stock jigs at Eastleigh did not fit the frames, whereas the former SR stock jigs did, so the bodies were built to the older design.

The Southern, both railway and region, seemed to alternate between years of building large batches of main line and then suburban stock. Late 1930s was lots or COR, BIL and others main line vehicles, then the 1940s-50s completely replaced all the suburban fleet with SUBs and EPBs. Back to the main line at the end of the 1950s, it was CEPs, HAPs, and then the CIG/VEP/REP etc vehicles. Some will argue exceptions, but that is the basics. First class provision is only partially linked, because until the early 1940s in WW2 the suburban lines had first class as well. Always seemed a bit strange that only London, the UK's wealthiest city, was the only one to have to give up first class on internal suburban runs at that time, and never got it back, whereas Liverpool, Manchester etc carried on.

 

[DustyBin]

Covered in post #27 above. The "SR" design 2-car units, despite the coaches being numbered as if pre-nationalisation with an S suffix, were actually newer than the BR Mk 1 pattern ones, being built in the later 1950s. It was desired to reuse the 1930s underframes of the 2-NOLs, which had old, life-expired wooden pre-grouping bodies on them, but the BR stock jigs at Eastleigh did not fit the frames, whereas the former SR stock jigs did, so the bodies were built to the older design.

The Southern, both railway and region, seemed to alternate between years of building large batches of main line and then suburban stock. Late 1930s was lots or COR, BIL and others main line vehicles, then the 1940s-50s completely replaced all the suburban fleet with SUBs and EPBs. Back to the main line at the end of the 1950s, it was CEPs, HAPs, and then the CIG/VEP/REP etc vehicles. Some will argue exceptions, but that is the basics. First class provision is only partially linked, because until the early 1940s in WW2 the suburban lines had first class as well. Always seemed a bit strange that only London, the UK's wealthiest city, was the only one to have to give up first class on internal suburban runs at that time, and never got it back, whereas Liverpool, Manchester etc carried on.

This is a really informative post, thanks. I knew the SR units (2-EPBs anyway) were built on NOL under frames but I hadn’t given much thought as to when they were actually constructed. It all makes sense now.

 

[Taunton]

The rebodied vehicles came to an unfortunate end with the Cannon Street buffer stop collision in 1991, when most vehicles seemed to withstand it, but back in the 4-EPB formation, cars 5 and 6, on 1927-8 frames, were substantially telescoped into one another (something not apparent in news reports which just showed the scarcely damaged front car and the bufferstop). I hadn't realised before the report came out that the original 1950s 4-EPB sets were likewise built onto old frames, one of which originally had wooden bodies from the late 19th century originally mounted on it. Other cars in the set were onetime 1940s all-steel SUB cars, rebuilt into the EPB formation. They were all renumbered into a new build series when the EPBs were introduced. The SR-pattern 2-EPBs were I think the last passenger vehicles of all built to pre-nationalisation company designs, coming at the end of 1959, well after all the BR 2-EPB units.

 

[30907]

The Southern, both railway and region, seemed to alternate between years of building large batches of main line and then suburban stock. Late 1930s was lots or COR, BIL and others main line vehicles, then the 1940s-50s completely replaced all the suburban fleet with SUBs and EPBs. Back to the main line at the end of the 1950s, it was CEPs, HAPs, and then the CIG/VEP/REP etc vehicles.

That reflects the SR (and BR(S)) electrification programme - Suburban first, then outer-suburban and main line - which then needed replacing in that order, and cascading main-line to outers to suburban wasn't a realistic option (though it happened to the 2-Nols (the only outer-suburban stock to have repurposed bodywork.

 

[nw1]

Reminds me of an uncomfortable journey from Portmouth to London, to return home to York. I had come off the Gosport Ferry, rushed past the toilets on the station as a train for London was about to leave and jumped in the first carriage. Horror... No toilet, there had been serious disruption and something without toilets had ended up as part of a Waterloo service. The disruption (cant remember why) was the reason I was keen to make the London train. A very uncomfortable start to the journey, managed to swap carriages to one that had a toilet at the next stop. (We had passed Portsmouth and Southsea whilst looking for said toilet, it was an open carriage, but no corridor). I think there may have been a flood alert in Hampshire after my visit

This definitely happened on more than one occasion in 1983, in the form of EPBs.

The first day of the new timetable, Monday 16 May 1983, the 0650-ish '83' down stopper to Portsmouth was formed 8EPB vice 8CIG. This split at Portsmouth but it looks like at least one EPB stayed on-diagram all day, because the 1630 '74' down Portsmouth via Cobham stopper, partly formed by one of these units, still had a 4EPB (plus 4VEP, but that was a completely different diagram, a daytime Cobham-line shuttle diagram) at the end of the day - again vice 8CIG. This would have meant that the 0930-ish stopping up '83', 1218 down semi-fast '82', and 1420-ish up semi-fast '82' would have been formed 4EPB on that day.

Not sure what they did with the other EPB but that was booked to form part of an '81' up fast, the 0950-ish out of Portsmouth Harbour which might have meant a bizarre CIG/BEP*/EPB combo on that service and all the subsequent '81's of that diagram later in the day. Didn't ascertain if that happened though.

Other occasion was the 1832 down semi-fast Waterloo-Fratton, I think, on Friday 21 October 1983, which was formed 8EPB.

(*or BIG, this was the transition period when the refurbished BEPs were displacing the BIGs on the Portsmouth Direct and both could be seen.)

 

[Beebman]

I had EPB vice VEP/CIG on two occasions in early 1982 on the Reading-Waterloo line - a SR-type 4EPB on an up journey and then 4 x BR-type 2EPBs on a down train some time later. Fortunately I didn't need any toilet facilities but of course it was bad not to have them on 75-minute journeys.

 

[nw1]

I had EPB vice VEP/CIG on two occasions in early 1982 on the Reading-Waterloo line - a SR-type 4EPB on an up journey and then 4 x BR-type 2EPBs on a down train some time later. Fortunately I didn't need any toilet facilities but of course it was bad not to have them on 75-minute journeys.

True, though if it was a choice between EPB and cancellation, the EPB would be the best option.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2021 ==

There were no SAPs left by 1990: the BR design SAPs were converted back to HAPs around 1980 as mentioned above, and I think the last SR design SAPs were disbanded by about 1983.

What you think are SAPs are probably CAPs. At that time they had one declassified Driving Trailer Composite and one still with First Class, but in their last few years of service they ran with both DTCs declassified.

Also visible in that video at about 1 min 16 seconds and again at about 2m26sec are 4-COMs (=COMpartment EPB). They were SR design EPBs reformed with two compartment trailers, formed after a young woman was murdered in a compartment on an off-peak train in 1988 (see also this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ended-the-compartment-carriages-on-sr.162277/). The compartment trailers had red stripes above the doors and windows to warn passengers who wished to avoid them, and were used only in peak hours wherever possible.

I think the last 4-COMs were withdrawn by about 1991 or 1992 although a small number of unrefurbished BR design 2-EPBs with compartments (also marked by red stripes above the windows) remained in service almost until the last EPBs were withdrawn in March 1995.

Interesting video, what services were those CAP/EPB combos on? I note one had the headcode 59, I can't think what route that is. Presumably something from Kent, rather than London suburban, due to the first class?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2021 ==

My post now edited to reflect this. I tend to divide them into types that had been withdrawn before I came back to London, and those still in service then, and types introduced subsequently. The second category is basically all EP stock plus the all-steel SUBs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2021 ==


8VAB - I think was Vep Additional Buffet.
SAP was, I believe, Second class only (former) hAP

Wasn't there an 8MIG for a short while, formed of the buffet car formerly used in the VAB sandwiched (if you'll forgive the pun) between two CIGs, one with a trailer car removed?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2021 ==


8VAB - I think was Vep Additional Buffet.
SAP was, I believe, Second class only (former) hAP

Wasn't there an 8MIG for a short while, formed of the buffet car formerly used in the VAB sandwiched (if you'll forgive the pun) between two CIGs, one with a trailer car removed?

Yes, I remember the MIGs, two of them, 2601 and 2602, used on the Portsmouth Direct in summer 1983. They had an old-style MkI buffet but no idea whether that came from the VAB, which was before my time.

I think the MIGs were a temporary solution as the refurbished BEPs were not being delivered fast enough to replace the BIGs migrating to the Central Division, but could be wrong.

2601 was 7 cars from CIGs 7401/7402 plus buffet.
2602 was 7 cars from CIGs 7403/7404 plus buffet.

As temporary units, ISTR the unit numbers being hand-painted.

 

[JonathanH]

I note one had the headcode 59, I can't think what route that is. Presumably something from Kent, rather than London suburban, due to the first class?

59 appears to be Holborn Viaduct to Dartford / Gravesend via Lewisham and Sidcup.

 

[nw1]

59 appears to be Holborn Viaduct to Dartford / Gravesend via Lewisham and Sidcup.

Ah right OK thanks. Surprised that would have a CAP but maybe it was a substitute for an EPB.

 

[JonathanH]

Ah right OK thanks. Surprised that would have a CAP but maybe it was a substitute for an EPB.

By then, weren't CAPs largely relegated to suburban services in any case? I imagine, but don't know, that their main work was to Gravesend and Gillingham once they were at Gillingham in the mid 1980s. Is that right?

 

[nw1]

By then, weren't CAPs largely relegated to suburban services in any case? I imagine, but don't know, that their main work was to Gravesend and Gillingham once they were at Slade Green in the mid 1980s. Is that right?

I don't know I have to admit. I saw CAPs on Coastway West in 1983 and on Victoria-Maidstone in 1986. Not sure what they operated in 1990 but assumed that the first class would mean they'd run routes normally operated by VEPs and CEPs, when those were not available in the peak.

 

[73128]

I don't know I have to admit. I saw CAPs on Coastway West in 1983 and on Victoria-Maidstone in 1986. Not sure what they operated in 1990 but assumed that the first class would mean they'd run routes normally operated by VEPs and CEPs, when those were not available in the peak.

I think that Gravesend and Gillingham services have always been second/standard class only. Back in the days when the semi fast service from CX (at xx36) ran to Ramsgate (slow) that had first class and was HAP operated.

 

[30907]

Ah right OK thanks. Surprised that would have a CAP but maybe it was a substitute for an EPB.

The Holborns were relatively quiet so the reduced seating of a CAP was less of a problem than out of CHX/CST. In any case it might have been diagrammed and worked a longer distsnce service later - in the early 70s there was a 16xx Holborn-Orpington EPB+Hap, later EPB+Cep, which then went to Gillingham or Maidstone at 18xx.

 

[D6130]

After passing out as a guard at Brighton in January 1984, the first train that I worked solo was a Brighton to Seaford and return with a 4-CAP. I worked several more of them over the next few months, but they all disappeared off to the South-Eastern Division at the start of the May 1984 timetable.

 

[nw1]

The Holborns were relatively quiet so the reduced seating of a CAP was less of a problem than out of CHX/CST. In any case it might have been diagrammed and worked a longer distsnce service later - in the early 70s there was a 16xx Holborn-Orpington EPB+Hap, later EPB+Cep, which then went to Gillingham or Maidstone at 18xx.

Ah interesting, thanks. The video was in daylight and it was late January, so it is likely to have been either morning peak or afternoon shoulder-peak (1600-1700). After 1700, or much before 0800, and darkness would be noticeable. It was an incoming working, so possible it was a suburban which then formed a Maidstone or Gillingham outbound, I guess.

I think I've come across shoulder-peak services which have unusually 'main line' stock before, but can't think of any specific examples right now. The sort of working which might leave London, Manchester, or wherever, 1600-1630 and be back around 1730 on a suburban trip, then form a main-line working at the height of the peak. Presumably because the potential conflicts in the peak approaching and leaving a terminal station may mean that this kind of diagramming is necessary to minimise such conflicts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2021 ==

After passing out as a guard at Brighton in January 1984, the first train that I worked solo was a Brighton to Seaford and return with a 4-CAP. I worked several more of them over the next few months, but they all disappeared off to the South-Eastern Division at the start of the May 1984 timetable.

Yes, I remember there being many CAPs on the Coastway West in August 1983 when I spent the day at Havant. Because the '60' (semi-fast Brighton-Portsmouth) interworked with the '62' (stopping Brighton-Portsmouth), a good number, perhaps half, the '60's were CAP-operated, unusual stock for a fast-ish service linking two large towns/cities. The rest were a mixture of VEPs and CIGs.

However by the time I re-visited the Central Division (the first of many occasions between 1985 and 1988) in October 1985, and spent the day at Brighton, there was not a CAP to be seen.

 

[AY1975]

I don't know I have to admit. I saw CAPs on Coastway West in 1983 and on Victoria-Maidstone in 1986. Not sure what they operated in 1990 but assumed that the first class would mean they'd run routes normally operated by VEPs and CEPs, when those were not available in the peak.

I once travelled on one from Shepherds Well to Faversham on a Dover-Victoria stopper (which would more usually be VEPs or CEPs) in about 1988.

IIRC the remaining First Class sections on the CAPs were declassified in about 1991 or 1992, after which they were relegated to suburban services for their last few years before withdrawal. I think they occasionally used to turn up on suburban services vice EPB even before that, though.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

What I wouldn't give for the peacefulness of an EPB compartment these days.

 

[Dr_Paul]

What I found odd about the Bulleid-style 2-HAPs was the one-sided half compartment at the end of the corridor carriage, with a bench seat facing a blank wall. I travelled on one of these up to Victoria in the 1980s, I think, and was rather surprised at the internal layout of the carriage. I don't think they were used on services from Waterloo, my usual way up to London, and I'd not been on one before.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2021 ==

What I wouldn't give for the peacefulness of an EPB compartment these days.

I know what you mean. If you had one for yourself, you could sit quietly and read or just look out of the window and watch the world go by with no interruptions from the tannoy (especially that awful 'sorted' message). Much more restful than travel today. And proper drop-light windows. On the other hand, they weren't much fun at rush hour with six seated each side and more people crammed in standing.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Just imagine if compartment EPBs and SAPs had survived today, in Covid times? 1 or 2 people per compartment to comply with social distancing

 

[Snow1964]

After passing out as a guard at Brighton in January 1984, the first train that I worked solo was a Brighton to Seaford and return with a 4-CAP. I worked several more of them over the next few months, but they all disappeared off to the South-Eastern Division at the start of the May 1984 timetable.

From memory there was a big growth in rail usage in the late 1980s (the earlier years of Network SouthEast era) and 1987 was the asbestos deadline.

I think some of the CEPs were not available around that time, as some were away getting heavy rebuild at Swindon. It took a few years to do them all, and each one was away about 2 months (I forget details now)

This resulted in some older stock being retained, short term, especially on the more lightly used routes, pending the delivery of the networkers. Probably why some of the 4-CAPs ended up on some selected South East suburban services about 1986-1990