Southern England EMU’S

[gimmea50anyday]

I am surprised no one has yet mentioned the 442s were designated 5WESsex electrics
The 450s and 444s are 4DESiro and 5DES

And mentioned earlier as part of SR upcycling the 455 using 507 centre cars, they also used the standard EE507 traction motors (although now built by GEC) had brake gear and compressors.recovered from SUB

 

[contrex]

I am surprised no one has yet mentioned the 442s were designated 5WESsex electrics
The 450s and 444s are 4DESiro and 5DES

Were these late unit 'designations' officially used, or made up by enthusiasts? Let's not forget JOP, JUP, and GAT for the Junipers, and I have seen JAV for the Javelins. Interesting that Classes 455, 456, 465, 466, 508 didn't seem to get Southern Railway type number/letter designations, although I note that Wikipedia thinks that SWD 508s were called 'PER', which I think may have originated in an error in a magazine in an article about PEPs around 1971.

 

[Mikey C]

How similar were the SR and BR EPBs? It seems odd that the BR ones weren't given a different code, or later on a different TOPs number

On the outside the BR ones have a slight roof overhang at the front and don't have the extra small window above the doors. And from distant memory, the SR ones have an armrest under the windows whereas the BR ones don't?

 

[JonathanH]

How similar were the SR and BR EPBs? It seems odd that the BR ones weren't given a different code, or later on a different TOPs number

They were essentially the same thing though - a four coach suburban unit with an EE507 motor and EP brakes. Admittedly they had different interiors, including open / compartment layout and slightly different body profile but weren't so different in what they could do. I dont think they are so different as to warrant a different TOPs class and indeed, what would they have been numbered given all 51- and 57-electric type went in the 41x series and 4x5 denoted a 4-coach suburban unit in the SR numbering system (with 63-electric type in the 42x series).

Should 377/3s and 377/6s be a different class? Admittedly they are closer in design but have different seats, luggage racks, door buttons, window design etc.

 

[30907]

How similar were the SR and BR EPBs? It seems odd that the BR ones weren't given a different code, or later on a different TOPs number

In operation, identical, even if looking obviously different.

The BR variety had 6 more seats.The Bulleid-era 4-Subs had greater variation, and the SR didn't distinguish between those and the earlier sets of far lower capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

How similar were the SR and BR EPBs? It seems odd that the BR ones weren't given a different code, or later on a different TOPs number

On the outside the BR ones have a slight roof overhang at the front and don't have the extra small window above the doors. And from distant memory, the SR ones have an armrest under the windows whereas the BR ones don't?

No toplights was probably the obvious difference noticeable for the BR ones. Also the Bullied ones had concave panels underneath the sidelights.

Both had lovely comfortable, well cushioned seating though.

 

[Goldfish62]

Were these late unit 'designations' officially used, or made up by enthusiasts? Let's not forget JOP, JUP, and GAT for the Junipers, and I have seen JAV for the Javelins. Interesting that Classes 455, 456, 465, 466, 508 didn't seem to get Southern Railway type number/letter designations, although I note that Wikipedia thinks that SWD 508s were called 'PER', which I think may have originated in an error in a magazine in an article about PEPs around 1971.

4-JOP appeared on the data panels of the 458/0. Not sure about the others.

 

[yorksrob]

Don't forget that there were 6-COR's, i.e reconstituted PAN/PUL sets that were sent to the newly electrified South Eastern Division to cover for rolling stock shortages for a couple of years.

Would have loved to have seen some of those !

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Subtle but The angling on the cab ends are closer in to the route code boxes on SR units whereas on BR units the angling is much further out towards the cab windows.
Weren't BR EPBs built to MK1 coach standards? After all, CEPs were essentially CORs but with MK1 bodies and 507 motors

 

[contrex]

Subtle but The angling on the cab ends are closer in to the route code boxes on SR units whereas on BR units the angling is much further out towards the cab windows.
Weren't BR EPBs built to MK1 coach standards? After all, CEPs were essentially CORs but with MK1 bodies and 507 motors

The SR type EPBs seemed very different to the 'BR Standard' ones - chalk and cheese to me as a boy. The SR type had the old Bulleid style curved body sides, and looked very much like SUBs with redesigned cabs. The BR type had the BR mark 1 body profile. Another difference between CEPs and CORs would be the EP brake. The production Phase 1 & 2 CEPs/BEPs used camshaft motor control equipment, rather than the contactor equipment on the 1956 prototypes

 

[nw1]

No toplights was probably the obvious difference noticeable for the BR ones. Also the Bullied ones had concave panels underneath the sidelights.

Both had lovely comfortable, well cushioned seating though.

Not sure if anyone can answer this: was there any pattern in the diagramming for SR vs BR EPBs? i.e. would a given diagram always use one rather than the other?

I do have a South Eastern CWN for a year within the EPB era (thanks to a forum member) but it does not make distinctions between the two types, so I suspect not.

 

[yorksrob]

Not sure if anyone can answer this: was there any pattern in the diagramming for SR vs BR EPBs? i.e. would a given diagram always use one rather than the other?

I do have a South Eastern CWN for a year within the EPB era (thanks to a forum member) but it does not make distinctions between the two types, so I suspect not.

They seemed to turn up interchangeably when I was catching them.

 

[contrex]

Not sure if anyone can answer this: was there any pattern in the diagramming for SR vs BR EPBs? i.e. would a given diagram always use one rather than the other?

They were interchangeable and you very often saw 8 car formations with one of each type. Also some ad-hoc units were made up with BR Standard motor coaches and SR type trailers. I don't know if there were any the other way around.

 

[Taunton]

The EPB units were used indiscriminately mixed on the SE division, in particular there were a much greater proportion of the 2-car sets that were BR style than for the 4-car sets, because of when it was decided to extend suburban train lengths from 8 to 10 cars. It was only the Cannon Street accident that showed how collision shocks could pass right down the train and cause most damage in the SR pattern units well back. The 1957 Lewisham accident, where the almost new BR-pattern 2-car set on the rear of the first train was totally destroyed, had different forces through the train.

The one diagramming difference was the few duties out beyond the suburban area, often multipled with HAP units, which were assigned to the final-build BR units which had express gear ratios, and were fitted with AWS.

I have written here before about riding back in 1978 on one of the post-midnight 12-EPB specials from Hook, near Basingstoke, to Waterloo, after Bob Dylan's concert at Blackbushe. Probably not express gear, but flat out through the night : (1) Southern Region services 1975-82 and Arun Valley 1983 | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

Another lift was the one at the end of the London to Brighton Bike Ride, early 1990s. 12-EPB again, back unit for hundreds of bikes (no concession to the seats, just pile them in), front cars for the riders. Nonstop back to London.

 

[Snow1964]

Another lift was the one at the end of the London to Brighton Bike Ride, early 1990s. 12-EPB again, back unit for hundreds of bikes (no concession to the seats, just pile them in), front cars for the riders. Nonstop back to London.

Not so, for the bike ride the cushions were lifted and turned over, so oily bike chains didn’t touch the seating surfaces

 

[Taunton]

Not so, for the bike ride the cushions were lifted and turned over, so oily bike chains didn’t touch the seating surfaces

Not on the ones I saw at Brighton. Bikes straight onto the seats. Surprised me too. At least the good old Trojan moquette stood up to it. Bad luck for anyone going into the office next day in their new suit.

The idea of having reversible seat cushions, to use the units for parcels workings etc, had been later lost by fixing the cushions, presumably on works overhauls, and this became standard. I recall Alan Williams later wrote about the same thing in Modern Railways, having witnessed wet mailbags on a postal working loaded directly onto the seats. The Cannon Street accident photographs do not show by 1991 any displaced seat cushions from frames, which would surely have happened if they were readily removable to be reversible.

 

[JonathanH]

The idea of having reversible seat cushions, to use the units for parcels workings etc, had been later lost by fixing the cushions, presumably on works overhauls, and this became standard.

Until opening windows were restricted and old units replaced by units with sealed windows, a feature of the lineside on SR routes were seat cushions that had made their way out of the window. It is one of the reasons why the 455s had restricted window opening.

 

[nw1]

OK thanks @contrex @Taunton for clarifying.

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The one diagramming difference was the few duties out beyond the suburban area, often multipled with HAP units, which were assigned to the final-build BR units which had express gear ratios, and were fitted with AWS.

It must presumably have been these that ran the 2EPB + 8VEP Tunbridge Wells peak services, mentioned up-thread.

 

[Taunton]

According to the RCTS 1976 book the 4-EPB AWS (and presumably thus express gear) units at the time were the last 1963 batch, 5357-5370. Likewise the only 2-HAP shown with AWS at the time were 6147-73, the final 1963 units, originally allocated to Waterloo services, but on the Eastern Division by this time. No mention of any 2-EPB being so fitted at the time, but likely came later.

 

[yorksrob]

Alan Williams later wrote about the same thing in Modern Railways, having witnessed wet mailbags on a postal working loaded directly onto the seats.

That might help explain that certain musty aroma of those units !

 

[73128]

I’ve seen plenty of photographs of similar workings, a single EPB plus 90mph unit was fairly common I think. It was the 8VEP + 2EPB that caught my attention for the reasons stated. Hopefully somebody knows!

Most Guildford new line peak hour workings were VEP + EPB for a time, although i think that the speed limit was 60mph inwards from New Malden then so not much chance of getting above 75mph between there and the Surbiton stop.

 

[D6130]

Most Guildford new line peak hour workings were VEP + EPB for a time, although i think that the speed limit was 60mph inwards from New Malden then so not much chance of getting above 75mph between there and the Surbiton stop.

Sometime in the late 1970s - or possibly early 1980s, I can't remember exactly when - the speed limit on the fast lines between Clapham Junction and New Malden was raised from 60 to 75 mph (with the exception of the curve through the junction at Wimbledon 'A' box, which remained at 60). When I worked on the Southern Region (1975-88) all the South Western Division 4-EPB units (5101-5133) were of the Southern Railway Bulleid type, which were limited to 75 mph.

 

[Bikeman78]

A few CIGs had this livery as well.

View attachment 106500

1701 to 1711 had Jaffa Cake but it didn't last long because they were amongst the first to be repainted into NSE livery. Chris Green wasn't keen on 12 car trains having three different liveries. The majority of the CEPs had Jaffa Cake so the remaining Blue and Grey units got NSE repaints first.

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It really isn't. The replacement stock had better passenger facilities (in most cases). Besides, didn't it just result in more stock for the suburban area if the motor vehicles released were available to augment the EPB stock.

I dont think anyone would argue that a pair of HAPs or a CAP was better than a VEP.

The SR HAP motor cars were reused together with SUB trailers to create more 4EPBs. Aside from those converted to 4CAPs, the majority of the BR design HAPs were scrapped because they had asbestos in them.

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The idea of doing 90mph in a 4-EPB is pretty scary, seeing how rough riding they could be at half that speed.

I wonder how fast they used to thunder down the grade from Ockley to Warnham? I never timed them but I suspect it was more than 75 especially on those that didn't stop at Warnham. The ride could politely be described as lively

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Interesting, as there were no HAPs on the SE division in 1986 or 1987, from what I could make out (CAPs, yes, but not HAPs). There were some 8VEP+2EPB formations on the peak-hour 20-min-interval Tunbridge Wells services, though.

The early 90s recession also saw the HAPs off from the South Western Division. They were withdrawn from the start of the autumn timetable in September 1991. Said this already but I recall one day in September 1991 at Waterloo with a long and depressing series of automated announcements of the form "From Monday 30 September the 17:XX to [Surrey/Hampshire station] will be shortened in length to N coaches". This was all down to the withdrawal of the HAPs; 10-cars became 8 and some 12-car VEP/CIG formations also became 8, because of the need for VEPs or CIGs to replace HAPs in 4VEP/4HAP type formations.

I remember that 4301 was stabled in Horsham sidings for weeks after finishing on the SWD. It often used to shunt around from one siding to another. One day it went off towards Dorking and came in on the front of an EPB. Maybe there was a fault in the leading cab of the EPB.

Five HAPs ran on the SED in the early 1990s to Tunbridge Wells or Ashford. Just before the end, one of them was damaged or defective so 2EPB 6403 stood in for several weeks.

 

[D6130]

I wonder how fast they used to thunder down the grade from Ockley to Warnham? I never timed them but I suspect it was more than 75 especially on those that didn't stop at Warnham. The ride could politely be described as lively

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s, we had a Monday-Friday job working up to Victoria with a peak hour semi-fast, then a 4-EPB down to Horsham via Dorking and back (with a 45 minute PNB at Horsham) and finally a semi-fast from Victoria back to Brighton. After leaving Dorking - next stop Horsham - I would often sit in the rear driver's seat (Tut! Tut!) and the speedo needle would usually be hard over against the 75 mph stop descending from Ockley to Warnham. I occasionally did a - not very accurate - quarter milepost timing using the second hand on my railway-issue pocket watch. However, I don't think I can remember any indication that we were exceeding about 77-78.

 

[Bikeman78]

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s, we had a Monday-Friday job working up to Victoria with a peak hour semi-fast, then a 4-EPB down to Horsham via Dorking and back (with a 45 minute PNB at Horsham) and finally a semi-fast from Victoria back to Brighton. After leaving Dorking - next stop Horsham - I would often sit in the rear driver's seat (Tut! Tut!) and the speedo needle would usually be hard over against the 75 mph stop descending from Ockley to Warnham. I occasionally did a - not very accurate - quarter milepost timing using the second hand on my railway-issue pocket watch. However, I don't think I can remember any indication that we were exceeding about 77-78.

Thanks for the info. Those points at Warnham were very bouncy at full speed. I recall that the motor bogies used to hunt from side to side at speed.

 

[DustyBin]

Most Guildford new line peak hour workings were VEP + EPB for a time, although i think that the speed limit was 60mph inwards from New Malden then so not much chance of getting above 75mph between there and the Surbiton stop.

Thanks. I suppose if there was no scope to exceed 75mph, having a 2EPB coupled to a pair of VEPs wouldn’t actually be an issue in reality.

 

[73128]

Ah interesting, thanks. The video was in daylight and it was late January, so it is likely to have been either morning peak or afternoon shoulder-peak (1600-1700). After 1700, or much before 0800, and darkness would be noticeable. It was an incoming working, so possible it was a suburban which then formed a Maidstone or Gillingham outbound, I guess.

I think I've come across shoulder-peak services which have unusually 'main line' stock before, but can't think of any specific examples right now. The sort of working which might leave London, Manchester, or wherever, 1600-1630 and be back around 1730 on a suburban trip, then form a main-line working at the height of the peak. Presumably because the potential conflicts in the peak approaching and leaving a terminal station may mean that this kind of diagramming is necessary to minimise such conflicts.

one such example was the 1548 Holborn to Sevenoaks which was 6HAP for most of 1975-1978 when I lived near Denmark Hill.

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It is interesting how many of the 2nd Gen slammers copied their layouts from 1st generation ones. BIL/HAP, COR/CEP etc.

It seems the CIG units were the first to have a real rethink in this respect.

in particular with their single centre motor coach and guard's compartment, instead of having them at each end of a 4 car set. I guess followed the broad layout of the early 1960s ac four car class 302s, 304s, 305s etc.

 

[Taunton]

The early 1960s Kent electrification fully stocked up on CEP units for express services, and HAP units for intermediate/stopping services beyond the London suburban area, all of which were based at Ramsgate depot. Existing older non-EP brake units in the Eastern Division were also cleared out to the other divisions.

Some time in the early 1970s there was an incident with a HAP in the narrow tunnels between Dover and Folkestone, don't know if it was a derailment, fire, breakdown or whatever, which had serious problems with evacuating the passengers from the non-corridor train. Thereafter units without through end gangways were banned from this mainstream section. This caused a range of reallocations, the last batch of VEPs being sent to the Eastern Division, and some HAPs being reallocated elsewhere.

 

[yorksrob]

one such example was the 1548 Holborn to Sevenoaks which was 6HAP for most of 1975-1978 when I lived near Denmark Hill.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2021 ==


in particular with their single centre motor coach and guard's compartment, instead of having them at each end of a 4 car set. I guess followed the broad layout of the early 1960s ac four car class 302s, 304s, 305s etc.

Indeed, it made sense to an extent as well. Why have two little guards vans at each end instead of one in the middle !

 

[nw1]

Most Guildford new line peak hour workings were VEP + EPB for a time, although i think that the speed limit was 60mph inwards from New Malden then so not much chance of getting above 75mph between there and the Surbiton stop.

Definitely VEP/EPB was the norm in 82/3 and 83/4 for the peak. I would guess 81/2 as well, as that timetable was extremely similar to the two following it. The EPBs were found on services terminating at Guildford from around 1600 onwards.

Mind you the majority of these services were fast-line* for some/all of the way between Waterloo and Surbiton, at least in the 82/3 and 83/4 timetables: was there also a 60mph limit on the fast lines?

* most stopped only at Wimbledon, and in the peak most were fast Waterloo to Surbiton occupying an obvious path on the fast lines.

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.. and to add to the main-line EPB discussion, looking at the 82/3 CWNs another member sent me, it looks like in 82/83 there was an 8VEP + 4EPB combo on the 0852 Waterloo to Woking Guildford via Woking (sorry, typo) in 1982/3. This would probably have gone fast-line to Surbiton. I do remember there being some slightly 'funky' combinations at Guildford around the 0900-1000 period at this time.

Presumably there would have been an inward peak working too , which formed this train out. I'm likely to find this out in due course.