SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[WizCastro197]

The main other option I thought could be considered in the existing stock one was 350s. I'm not aware of any other EMUs going off lease that could meet the life expectancy requirement

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There also 348 vehicles of the 350s by my count

Alternatively, there's the 379s, but there's not nearly enough of them

As I mentioned on the 379 future thread, Southeastern want trains that already have 750 DC. Only 350/1s have 3rd rail shoes but there is only thirty units or 120 vehicles which I am sure West Midland Trains/ London Northwestern Railway will not be willing to give up?

 

[Trainbike46]

As I mentioned on the 379 future thread, Southeastern want trains that already have 750 DC.

Sorry I hadn't gotten back to that thread yet. Another reason (other than there only being 30x4car of them) why they might not be particularly likely to end up with SE

 

[Bald Rick]

Not quite sure whether this was a rhetorical question and the “something else” should be blinding obvious (it reads as if it is, but I might be overthinking it! If so apologies)

No it was a genuine question, and not blindingly obvious to me what the answer is!

 

[ComUtoR]

Nope, as the batteries are (as stated) for other reasons than operating on non electrified sections.

Umm...

But also very useful for running when, say, the con rail is iced over, or there’s flooding, or snow above the con rail, or a power outage, etc. etc. Could easily add 1% to performance.

Errr....

No it was a genuine question, and not blindingly obvious to me what the answer is!

An even more interesting question is that DfT must have approved this. To do so there must have been a compelling financial reason. Now what is that? Lease costs ? Upcoming maintenance? Performance benefit? Something else?

The DfT approved this years ago. New units have been in the franchise spec for quite some time. SE has been screwed over for years now and has been the DfT's whipping boy. Politically this is a huge win for SE/DfT and I would hope that other than a political win, it could lead to some major changes. Sadly, the Government and SE are idiots.

However, in answer to your question, the answer really is simple. It's now cheaper for a fleet replacement. Nothing else really matters. Add up the costs for all you mention and then add up the costs for a new fleet. The see-saw tips only one way.

What SE need is infrastructure changes before a fleet change. Not gonna happen, so I'd suggest a 6/4 total fleet replacement. 6/4 would give SE flexibility to run 4/6/8/10/12 car units which will fit on their infrastructure. I think the franchise spec called for 6-cars to give a 6/12 fleet But just like Goldilocks you will be a little too short or a little too long.

Personally I'd like to see a complete replacement. Get rid of everything.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Personally I'd like to see a complete replacement. Get rid of everything.

Agreed (excluding Javelins). While I don't want to venture too much into speculative territory, a single design of unit could easily be introduced that would suit all current Networker, Electrostar and Desiro City routes, perhaps incorporating two seating layouts like some 377s do, or a mixture of tables and half tables like on 175s.

 

[py_megapixel]

Networker replacement before Sprinter replacement? Really, DfT?

Presumably they are looking at low floor with sliding steps, now that it's proven that it can work here, though?

 

[43066]

The DfT approved this years ago.

Yes but until contracts have been signed and money has been spent promised commitments can be rowed back on (see the pressure to cancel HS2 thread). Hence it’s somewhat strange that this particular project is being pursued in light of the straightened times in which we find ourselves.

Politically this is a huge win for SE/DfT

Is it? I’d suggest vanishingly few people who aren’t members of this forum will have any interest in potential Networker fleet replacement, or even know that it might be in the pipeline.

 

[ComUtoR]

perhaps incorporating two seating layouts like some 377s do, or a mixture of tables and half tables like on 175s.

This all depends on where you are coming from. As a passenger or Operationally ? Do you replace the entire fleet and introduce DOO across the entire SE network; saving millions. Or do you introduce flexible seating because passenger demands and customer focus are essential ?

 

[py_megapixel]

This all depends on where you are coming from. As a passenger or Operationally ? Do you replace the entire fleet and introduce DOO across the entire SE network; saving millions. Or do you introduce flexible seating because passenger demands and customer focus are essential ?

Can't you do both?

 

[Bald Rick]

The DfT approved this years ago.

Well, yes. But that was BC (Before Covid).

now that all costs, and therefore procurement, are under DfT control, Southeastern will have had to get this reapproved.

 

[JonathanH]

Do you replace the entire fleet and introduce DOO across the entire SE network; saving millions.

Are 375s really too old to justify being fitted with body mounted cameras for DOO?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Do you replace the entire fleet and introduce DOO across the entire SE network; saving millions.

I would personally, definitely, but that's another topic altogether.

 

[brad465]

Is it? I’d suggest vanishingly few people who aren’t members of this forum will have any interest in potential Networker fleet replacement, or even know that it might be in the pipeline.

They certainly won't know it's in the pipeline, but nearer the replacement time it will be being promoted by SE (or whatever the operator is in 2026/7) as a means to attract customers; SE did it with the handful of 707s it got, inc. the City Beam branding. I suspect there will be regular Networker users who'd take an interest in their replacement if they knew about it, as the interiors aren't the best out there (especially if they use them on routes interchangeable with 375/377s)/

 

[43066]

They certainly won't know it's in the pipeline, but nearer the replacement time it will be being promoted by SE (or whatever the operator is in 2026/7) as a means to attract customers; SE did it with the handful of 707s it got, inc. the City Beam branding. I suspect there will be regular Networker users who'd take an interest in their replacement if they knew about it, as the interiors aren't the best out there (especially if they use them on routes interchangeable with 375/377s)/

Perhaps further down the line, but none of that is a political win for the government in 2022.

 

[ComUtoR]

Is it? I’d suggest vanishingly few people who aren’t members of this forum will have any interest in potential Networker fleet replacement, or even know that it might be in the pipeline.

Not sure. I think if you told SE passengers that Networkers were going, you'd probably need a mop and bucket to clean up the mess.... The tears of joy would be flooding the station concourse.

Can't you do both?

Excellent question. I truly don't know. I look at trains from an operational perspective. Living in Metro land as a passenger I generally don't care past getting a seat. USB points, WiFi, tables, just feel like an extravagance that adds to my ticket price. In a modern world I'm stunned at what people feel is necessary or should be provided. Give me things that give me robust journey times or things that reduce maintenance and reduce delays and I'm a happy bunny. Ultimately there needs to be a balance and I'll happily respect what the general public wants. I think what we each see at vital for travel is different. Some of the people and all that..

now that all costs, and therefore procurement, are under DfT control, Southeastern will have had to get this reapproved.

It's always just money. SE goes to the DfT saying its gonna be cheaper, but take 5yrs and the DfT just approve it. If they went to the DfT and said there was huge benefits to the passenger and the TOC but it cost a few quid extra, then the answer would have been no. Maybe I'm being cynical :/

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Is it? I’d suggest vanishingly few people who aren’t members of this forum will have any interest in potential Networker fleet replacement, or even know that it might be in the pipeline.

I agree that most probably don't know what a Networker is, but if you told most of the regular commuters that the smelly, hot Metro trains with the urine on the floor, where the 3+2 seat cushions flop onto the floor and the plug doors slam loudly and internal doors are so weak they need to be pulled apart, are being replaced, I reckon most would be thrilled.

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Not sure. I think if you told SE passengers that Networkers were going, you'd probably need a mop and bucket to clean up the mess.... The tears of joy would be flooding the station concourse.

Indeed. The 365s are extinct, now please lets send the DC siblings to the same fate. Horrible trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

Are 375s really too old to justify being fitted with body mounted cameras for DOO?

It's not about the age of the fleet. You have to remember that fitting cameras will come with all sorts of changes to the unit itself. Is there wiring space, can the CCTV fit in the cab, what are the required standards ?

 

[JonathanH]

All this Networker hate is a bit excessive. The new fleet will soon get into the same state. It is just a function of where the trains operate. People complain about brand new 345s, 700s, 720s etc. I'd imagine a 345s type interior is possible on Southeastern metro - would the reduction in seated capacity go down well?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All this Networker hate is a bit excessive.

Says who? You, who perhaps doesn’t mind them? You don’t have to hate them but I’ve had far too much a horrible journey with my trainers stuck to the p^ss soaked floor to not hate them, so let me hate

 

[JonathanH]

It's not about the age of the fleet. You have to remember that fitting cameras will come with all sorts of changes to the unit itself. Is there wiring space, can the CCTV fit in the cab, what are the required standards ?

All other electrostars operate on DOO routes so it might well be possible but I appreciate that there will be views about whether 377s are an acceptable workplace for drivers. The 375s have nowhere else to go after Southeastern.

Says who? You, who perhaps doesn’t mind them? You don’t have to hate them but I’ve had far too much a horrible journey with my trainers stuck to the p^ss soaked floor to not hate them, so let me hate

Right, but the new trains will get in that state very quickly - see how much vandalism the 8-car 700s attract.

 

[WizCastro197]

All this Networker hate is a bit excessive. The new fleet will soon get into the same state. It is just a function of where the trains operate. People complain about brand new 345s, 700s, 720s etc. I'd imagine a 345s type interior is possible on Southeastern metro - would the reduction in seated capacity go down well?

I agree. I don’t see what the fuss about the Networkers are about. I am sure most commuters don’t even pay too much attention to their trains and so on and I definetly wouldn’t go round telling People that they are getting replaced because they aren’t for the next couple of years at least.


Probably seated capacity will go down but in favour of standing which is probably needed more than 3+2 seating


Is it also possible that units will come in a fixed form for example Thameslink can’t couple with any other units of its class?

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Says who? You, who perhaps doesn’t mind them? You don’t have to hate them but I’ve had far too much a horrible journey with my trainers stuck to the p^ss soaked floor to not hate them, so let me hate

Yes you’ve hated in almost every post you’ve made on here

I am sure all has been vented out I hope?

 

[Bald Rick]

It's always just money. SE goes to the DfT saying it’s gonna be cheaper, but take 5yrs and the DfT just approve it. If they went to the DfT and said there was huge benefits to the passenger and the TOC but it cost a few quid extra, then the answer would have been no. Maybe I'm being cynical :/

Ah, but in the original re franchise spec it wasn’t “just money”, as there was a quality element to franchise bids, which is why we have GA with an entirely new fleet and WMT with lots of new trains replacing many that aren’t *that* old.

That will have gone now, and it will all be about reducing subsidy, which in reality can only mean reducing operating costs - substantially.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All other electrostars operate on DOO routes so it might well be possible but I appreciate that there will be views about whether 377s are an acceptable workplace for drivers. The 375s have nowhere else to go after Southeastern.

Yes, without a shadow of a doubt the 375s are finished as soon as Southeastern decide to replace them, although it doesn’t look like they’re doing that just yet.

Yes you’ve hated in almost every post you’ve made on here

is it now

 

[43066]

I agree that most probably don't know what a Networker is, but if you told most of the regular commuters that the smelly, hot Metro trains with the urine on the floor, where the 3+2 seat cushions flop onto the floor and the plug doors slam loudly and internal doors are so weak they need to be pulled apart, are being replaced, I reckon most would be thrilled.

They’d like air conditioning, I’ll give you that. Beyond that I doubt they’re bothered. Urine on the floor is standard in many of the areas these units serve.

Indeed. The 365s are extinct, now please lets send the DC siblings to the same fate. Horrible trains.

For their time and the abuse they’ve put up with over the years, they aren’t that bad.

You haven’t lived unless you’ve auxed-on a networker in the winter early on a Sunday morning, and smelt last night’s vomit cooking on the floor heaters…

Yes, without a shadow of a doubt the 375s are finished as soon as Southeastern decide to replace them, although it doesn’t look like they’re doing that just yet.

They are decent units and only mid life, so good for another twenty years or so.

 

[ComUtoR]

All this Networker hate is a bit excessive.

Do you genuinely believe they are meeting the current passenger demands ? They have served their time faithfully. Put them out to pasture.

People complain about brand new 345s, 700s, 720s etc. I'd imagine a 345s type interior is possible on Southeastern metro - would the reduction in seated capacity go down well?

Which is whay I say that the DfT and SE are idiots. Passenger consultation is essential when introducing new fleets. Granted the 376s didn't go down well with passengers after their consultations but hopefully lessens were learned. A new fleet is the perfect opportunity to bring passenger and TOC together.

All other electrostars operate on DOO routes so it might well be possible

As stated, the infrastructure cannot cope. Platform monitors, mirrors, will no longer be introduced. Much of the non DOO SE network doesn't have the station infrastructure to introduce DOO in its traditional sense. A new unit, with full DOO capability, SDO, etc. Could be a game-changer.

The 375s have nowhere else to go after Southeastern.

Why is the UK obsessed with history and nostalgia. Bin them, start fresh, build for the future. The railway is so backward in their thinking that they never look forward.

Right, but the new trains will get in that state very quickly - see how much vandalism the 8-car 700s attract.

Not a lot. Graffiti aside, vandalism is over reported.

 

[Trainbike46]

Says who? You, who perhaps doesn’t mind them? You don’t have to hate them but I’ve had far too much a horrible journey with my trainers stuck to the p^ss soaked floor to not hate them, so let me hate

That sounds more like a cleaning issue? or possibly a vandalism and enforcement issue

Right, but the new trains will get in that state very quickly - see how much vandalism the 8-car 700s attract.

Why are the 8-cars different from the 12-cars?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why are the 8-cars different from the 12-cars?

The 8 cars tend to work the inner suburban routes like Rainham via Greenwich and Sutton via Wimbledon, serving unmanned and ungated stations in what some might call more dodgy areas.

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That sounds more like a cleaning issue? or possibly a vandalism and enforcement issue

I personally have never found the 376s or 700s on the same route to be anywhere near as bad, nor SN 377s or 455s on similarly ”dodgy” routes.

 

[ComUtoR]

Ah, but in the original re franchise spec it wasn’t “just money”, as there was a quality element to franchise bids, which is why we have GA with an entirely new fleet and WMT with lots of new trains replacing many that aren’t *that* old.

It's a new world post covid. Money and cost comes before everything. Its weird. Quality should come first but as always money comes first. I think that the post covid world has really hit that nail pretty hard. It's a shame that convincing the DfT was a simple as looking at the bottom line. Personally I think you could literally get away with anything nowadays as long as its cheaper.

That will have gone now, and it will all be about reducing subsidy, which in reality can only mean reducing operating costs - substantially.

As you already highlighted. There is a list of costs to consider. Maintenance costs a hell of a lot. Weren't 707s famously well known for their high MTIN's. A whole category for the Golden Spanners were created. I don't have access to TIN's but I'd love to see the hard numbers for Networkers. Its odd, I've never seen the published numbers outside of the awards. Suffice to say, I'm not a subscriber...

 

[cactustwirly]

Says who? You, who perhaps doesn’t mind them? You don’t have to hate them but I’ve had far too much a horrible journey with my trainers stuck to the p^ss soaked floor to not hate them, so let me hate

That's not a fault of the units, but rather the clientele that uses them and an operator that doesn't care about the condition of the units.
The 376s are pretty nasty as well, and so will the 707s in time

 

[WizCastro197]

The 8 cars tend to work the inner suburban routes like Rainham via Greenwich and Sutton via Wimbledon, serving unmanned and ungated stations in what some might call more dodgy areas.

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I personally have never found the 376s or 700s on the same route to be anywhere near as bad, nor SN 377s or 455s on similarly ”dodgy” routes.

Look at most 700 toilets, that’s where most graffiti lies. Probably where most young people do ‘dodgy stuff’