SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[alf]

Class 323s are 2.8m wide, and just shy of 23m long carriages. Class 165s & 166s are just over 2.8m wide and over 23m long. The end of the carriages on them all taper in to keep within guage, so it can certainly be done.

For the record & to their engineers credit 165’s/166’s are 23.5/23.25 m long & 2.81m wide & remain that wide despite operating on routes like Brighton/Portsmouth to Salisbury/Bath, Reading to Gatwick for which they were not initially intended.
I have even see a 165 running empty years ago on the North London line. It did not get stuck!

Their width plus length gives more room to passengers & increases capacity.
Toc’s & NR should be bolder & not make each new generation of rolling stock thinner & meaner & more like a tram in the hope of avoiding unreal loading gauge risks.

And the 323 emu trailers are 23.44 long x 2.80 wide & do not scrape past other rolling stock!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looks can be deceiving. The 175s looked great on the inside, still caught fire. Desiros may need looking at under the surface, although I'm not an expert on the matter.

He said refurbishment. You’re referring to the need for overhaul. Pernickerty of me to point out, but might as well.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Their width plus length gives more room to passengers & increases capacity.
Toc’s & NR should be bolder & not make each new generation of rolling stock thinner & meaner & more like a tram in the hope of avoiding unreal loading gauge risks.

Agreed!

There was definitely a missed opportunity making the IET's 2.8 x 24m, allowing for more HST-type seats that would give superior comfort*

*I've never been on an HST (probably never will), just going by what I've read/seen!

 

[4BEP]

Don't think so, although I wouldn't be surprised if preparatory work has begun, as (if my memory serves me correctly) the estimated entry into service is 2027-2029. Sure, they aren't likely to be needed for around a decade, but I guess DfT wants them to have been in service for a short period before being tested on HS2...?

EDIT: First train rolling off the production line in 2027, entry into service 2029 - 2033

HS2 Ltd awards landmark rolling stock contracts to Hitachi-Alstom joint venture

Major boost for UK train-building as HS2’s state-of-the-art fleet of 225mph (360km/h) high speed trains will be built by Alstom and Hitachi Rail at their factories in County Durham, Derby and Crewe Landmark contract set to support 2,500 jobs across the UK and boost the economy by over £157m...

mediacentre.hs2.org.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2023 ==

As a result, it may be fair to assume Alstom/Hitachi may not have any manufacturing capacity for additional trains, and thus Siemens becomes the most likely option (from Alstom)

But a blessing for Southeastern. Both TOCs are suffering from stock shortages.

Forgot about CAF, thanks!

Of those, who have a sufficient design to fulfil the contract requirements, and could physically manufacture them?

- CAF hasn't got a metro-type EMU design (class 331 is more of an intercity design)
- Siemens doesn't manufacture Desiro City's anymore
- Whilst they have a sufficient design (class 701), Alstom is limited on manufacturing capacity due to HS2 (unless they could be manufactured in parallel), not to mention the software problems
- Hitachi doesn't have an "already manufactured, existing" design (a contract requirement)

Seems like we need someone to restart manufacture/add to existing manufacturing capacity, or get Alstom to fix their problems!

The wording of the Expressions of Interest document leans pretty heavily on the previous supply of 3rd rail stock and ability to trains that work "out of the box" requirement. If I were in one of the Alstholm bid teams I would be wondering wether it was worth bidding, remember Siemens no bidding on Elizabeth Line stock? That doesn't leave a lot options, putting it mildly. Desiro is still listed as a product in a 20m version and with the empty shell build could preumably cover both Metro and future Mainline requirements. Similarly Hitachi built a 20m variant of their A Train for the 395s, a lower speed Metro variant should be well within the capability of a a company of Hitachi's size. Interesting times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed!

There was definitely a missed opportunity making the IET's 2.8 x 24m, allowing for more HST-type seats that would give superior comfort*

*I've never been on an HST (probably never will), just going by what I've read/seen!

The width of the IET doesn't in any way prevent the installation of the Grammer IC3000 seat, nor indeed the very similar one used in the Lumo and Avanti IETs and the Pendolino refurb.

Talking of widths (and more relevant to Southeastern), the Aventra is 2.7something in all variants, i.e. the same cross section is used for both the 20 and 24m version, which means 20m versions are narrower than they need to be (and a lot narrower than e.g. a Desiro City), which means narrow seats or poorer accessibility.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Talking of widths (and more relevant to Southeastern), the Aventra is 2.7something in all variants

2770mm to be precise.

which means 20m versions are narrower than they need to be (and a lot narrower than e.g. a Desiro City), which means narrow seats or poorer accessibility.

Only by 30mm overall, not enough to make any major difference (Desiro Cities are 2.8m)

 

[Energy]

remember Siemens no bidding on Elizabeth Line stock?

Siemens were busy with the massive class 700 order.

 

[Mikey C]

Siemens were busy with the massive class 700 order.

And the awarding of the 700 order to Siemens caused such a political storm, that they probably knew that it would go to Derby anyway...

 

[Energy]

And the awarding of the 700 order to Siemens caused such a political storm, that they probably knew that it would go to Derby anyway...

Bombardier had also lost the Intercity Express Programme, giving it to Siemens would have been interesting politically.

 

[Invincible]

The wording of the Expressions of Interest document leans pretty heavily on the previous supply of 3rd rail stock and ability to trains that work "out of the box" requirement. If I were in one of the Alstholm bid teams I would be wondering wether it was worth bidding, remember Siemens no bidding on Elizabeth Line stock? That doesn't leave a lot options, putting it mildly. Desiro is still listed as a product in a 20m version and with the empty shell build could preumably cover both Metro and future Mainline requirements. Similarly Hitachi built a 20m variant of their A Train for the 395s, a lower speed Metro variant should be well within the capability of a a company of Hitachi's size. Interesting times.

The production line at Derby will need something after the 701 production ends and before the HS2 Alstom/Hitachi trains 2027/2033?.
It's possible the software issues with the Elizabeth line 345s and SWR 701s are sorted soon, and the next Aventra model introduction will be more straightforward, so can see Alstom making a Southeastern bid for Aventras to replace Networkers. The Aventras can be supported alongside the Electrostars.
But no doubt Siemens and others will putting in strong bids?

 

[Snow1964]

Seems there is a written parliamentry Question from MP for Eltham on Thursday 13th to be answered during oral Transport questions from 9:30

What recent discussions he has had with Southeastern on new rolling stock.

https://whatson.parliament.uk/event/cal43864

 

[rdlover777]

Seems there is a written parliamentry Question from MP for Eltham on Thursday 13th to be answered during oral Transport questions from 9:30

https://whatson.parliament.uk/event/cal43864

I recorded this and watched it on catch up, and they conveniantly stopped anwering written questions at #16 'What steps he is taking to improve railway infrastructure.' before moving on to topical questions, all of which seemed to all be about ticket office closures

 

[brad465]

The latest RAIL edition that came out on the app today has an article on early withdrawals of 'excess' rolling stock. There's a paragraph about the 707s leading to some Networkers being mothballed, but also includes this line: "Proposals to obtain a new EMU fleet for Southeastern have also been shelved."

Could this be referring to the tender notice this thread is about?

 

[GEC465]

Could this be referring to the tender notice this thread is about?

I'm guessing so

Moderator note: When there are further updates regarding the fleet replacement, we can unlock this thread to enable updates to be posted. In the meantime, please use the following thread:

SouthEastern fleet replacement: suggestions and predictions

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southeastern-fleet-replacement-updates.239360/ I feel like they are going to wait until the 376s reach end of life and do it all in one big go.

www.railforums.co.uk