Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Quite sensible given that we need about a decade now from thinking we need replacement trains to getting them into use.
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SouthEastern fleet replacement updates
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william.martin
On Moderation
Hi there, does anybody know what is going to be replacing the networkers?
WizCastro197
Established Member
No Requirement for Mainline replacement. 375s work fine and will continue to for the next 15 years.
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No.
No one according to BidStats has answered the tender. Speculation does include more 707s but they have to be suited to both metro and mainline and work on High Speed 1 for some reason. Although nothing has been confirmed officially yet.
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I'd also recommend reading the last 6 pages to avoid any questions which have already been answered
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Chiltern006
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it said all southeastern infrastructure apart from HS1
what’s all your preferred options though? personally for me it’s siemens or stadler
what’s all your preferred options though? personally for me it’s siemens or stadler
py_megapixel
Established Member
That question is a bit of red herring. I (and most passengers) don't care who builds them as long as they are reliable, suitably comfortable for the services they are used for, don't feel like they're falling apart and aren't missing features that the continent has had for years.
Things like the interior design and layout are down to the specifier rather than the manufacturer.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I would personally, if issuing a tender, exclude Alstom unless evidence can be provided of the major issues with the SWR units having been understood and resolved.
Other than that, chuck it in the air and see where it sticks, though I do think "at least one vehicle low floor between the bogies allowing for level boarding at a UK standard platform with the gap bridged, and wheelchair spaces and accessible toilet to be in this section" should be mandatory.
Other than that, chuck it in the air and see where it sticks, though I do think "at least one vehicle low floor between the bogies allowing for level boarding at a UK standard platform with the gap bridged, and wheelchair spaces and accessible toilet to be in this section" should be mandatory.
WizCastro197
Established Member
I agree, I do think trains going forward should be made to be easily accessible, you’d think in 2022 more new trains would be like this but those 745/755s lead the way.
Also in regards to the second hand tender it did list it as having multiple options I am pretty sure unless I have mixed them up. 350/1s could be properly considered although where will they get the other 500+ units?
43096
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I'd add to that "particularly on DOO routes".
Probably be more 707s for me - also makes sense operationally from SE’s point of view considering they’re in the process of receiving the 30 from SWR.
Fincra5
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Right..... a Fleet Specifically built for the TL Route and ETCS...
brad465
Veteran Member
Apologies if I've missed a previous post on this: yesterday SE's Managing Director Steve White and Rail Business Daily have reported/promoted this procurement plan:
The title though seems misleading, as they say 570 "new trains", when it is actually "new vehicles" (they do say this in the article linked though).
The title though seems misleading, as they say 570 "new trains", when it is actually "new vehicles" (they do say this in the article linked though).
The invitation to tender specifically excludes a requirement for compatibility with HS1 infrastructure:
(My bold, from the document linked to in the OP).
They probably aren't expecting anyone to have 810 vehicles, but there's no additional cost to having a large maximum in the tender and leasing fewer/none. The three parallel tenders together look to be assessing all options for the future metro fleet to pick the option or combination with best value for money. Hypothetically an existing operator with too many trains could sublease to Southeastern and subsequently order an appropriately sized fleet for themselves. The far more likely outcome is a new fleet built for Southeastern.
This part of the tender is basically that done in a procurement friendly way:
What does this actually mean, in practice? Is it just that the trains won't need AC equipment (so DC shoegear and batteries only)? Or is there more to being "compatible" with HS1, some signalling equipment or something I am unaware of?
HS1 is signalled with TVM in-cab, a French system unique in the UK.
KVB around St Pancras as well. The platform height on domestic platforms is normal UK height.
JammyJames08
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Southeastern released a statement this morning about 465s on their intranet.
Networkers update: Exploring new (and existing) trains for our Metro Area
Some of you may have seen the news that we have recently issued a tender notice seeking options for new (and existing) trains on our network.
This is part of the very early stages of procurement for a new train fleet, as we develop a long-term solution to the increasingly difficult and expensive to maintain Networkers in the Metro area. At this stage, we have made no commitment to buy new trains, nor is there any cost to the Government.
The Networkers date from 1992 – the same year that Ford started phasing out its Sierra model in favour of the Mondeo family. Now 30 years later and with leases due to expire in a few years, we are using this time to investigate and compare the costs of new and/or existing train options that will be beneficial for our customers and the taxpayer.
We are investigating options for at least 350 new or existing carriages, or a maximum of 640, that could form the new train fleet.
It’s possible that some or all of the Class 465 and 466 Networker fleet will be replaced, and potentially other fleets, if we can derive better value.
Target key dates for introduction would be by October 2027.
Whilst this is certainly an exciting first step towards providing a better customer experience in the Metro area every day, as well as the potential environmental benefits and reduced costs to taxpayer – it is only the first step in the process.
Before any firm decisions are made, we will need to present a full business case to the DfT and show we are driving best value for taxpayers. In the meantime, and for at least the next few years, we will need to continue to repair and maintain our current fleet as effectively as we possibly can.
We will keep you updated in the next steps of this process and any decisions that are made.
Networkers update: Exploring new (and existing) trains for our Metro Area
Some of you may have seen the news that we have recently issued a tender notice seeking options for new (and existing) trains on our network.
This is part of the very early stages of procurement for a new train fleet, as we develop a long-term solution to the increasingly difficult and expensive to maintain Networkers in the Metro area. At this stage, we have made no commitment to buy new trains, nor is there any cost to the Government.
The Networkers date from 1992 – the same year that Ford started phasing out its Sierra model in favour of the Mondeo family. Now 30 years later and with leases due to expire in a few years, we are using this time to investigate and compare the costs of new and/or existing train options that will be beneficial for our customers and the taxpayer.
We are investigating options for at least 350 new or existing carriages, or a maximum of 640, that could form the new train fleet.
It’s possible that some or all of the Class 465 and 466 Networker fleet will be replaced, and potentially other fleets, if we can derive better value.
Target key dates for introduction would be by October 2027.
Whilst this is certainly an exciting first step towards providing a better customer experience in the Metro area every day, as well as the potential environmental benefits and reduced costs to taxpayer – it is only the first step in the process.
Before any firm decisions are made, we will need to present a full business case to the DfT and show we are driving best value for taxpayers. In the meantime, and for at least the next few years, we will need to continue to repair and maintain our current fleet as effectively as we possibly can.
We will keep you updated in the next steps of this process and any decisions that are made.
brad465
Veteran Member
So it looks like full DfT approval hasn't yet been obtained, if I've read the above correctly?
Interesting. In which case the verdict may well be “come back to us in five/ten years”. I hope they do reject the proposal - the networkers are good for a few more years and a deep clean and refresh would be chicken feed compared to a new fleet.
Trainbike46
Established Member
If Southeastern succeeds in their aim of finding new trains that are cheaper than the current networkers, I could see DfT approving it. Otherwise, not so much
Snow1964
Established Member
You have to remember that a keep the same trains option would have to get an option to extend the train lease. How that compares to alternative of leasing new trains is anyones guess, as price of short term option is likely to be more variable and less competitive.
With rising interest rates it seems very unlikely low leasing costs can be obtained for new stock?
For 30year old trains would the owners let them be leased for a song? No one else will have them.
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The DfT would rather they didn't refresh them either I'm sure. It might be a lot cheaper but everything needs authorising now!
As a very frequent user, the Networkers ARE worse than the 376s, 700s and just about anything else I use on the entire rail network in terms of ingrained dirt and general unkempt appearance. Everything about them embodies a lack of care for so many years.
The 376 have ripped seating but the general ambience/appearance is tired but not terrible like the Networkers.
It's not just last night's pee on the 465s, it's years of an operator never bothering to really clean them deeply. That in turn just encourages bad behaviour. As does a lack of on train staff and at stations. The whole network has long needed investment. Hell, some basic upkeep would be nice.
The 376 have ripped seating but the general ambience/appearance is tired but not terrible like the Networkers.
It's not just last night's pee on the 465s, it's years of an operator never bothering to really clean them deeply. That in turn just encourages bad behaviour. As does a lack of on train staff and at stations. The whole network has long needed investment. Hell, some basic upkeep would be nice.
brad465
Veteran Member
Which probably means the DfT will approve a refresh.
A partial replacement of the Networkers would be interesting. I wonder what they’d keep, how many, and for how long. I’m guessing the BREL 465s, but of course that would limit workings to 4, 8 and 12 cars unless they kept enough 466s. But then those are less reliable, require different spares and knowledge and are owned by a different company.
And in that case I wonder if they’d give them a heavy refurb. Surely they would.
But I think the government will opt to replace all the Networkers. In for a penny in for a pound.
And in that case I wonder if they’d give them a heavy refurb. Surely they would.
But I think the government will opt to replace all the Networkers. In for a penny in for a pound.
It would be quite a tall order to get DfT (actually, HMT) approval for something until they know how much the cost is going to be.
Personally I can see this happening. At the quoted introduction date quoted the Networkers will be 35 years old, and will be getting expensive to keep going.
They've asked for a proven platform, the 700s have been in service long enough to get good reliability and cost of operation data. If they can get the lease and operation cost bellow that of the networkers then it shouldn't be too difficult to sign off.
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