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South Wales Metro - Future

Envoy

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I suspect the proportion of traffic to Cardiff which is people from overseas visiting Wales/the U.K. is relatively low.
Westjet are flying 4 days per week this summer with services from Toronto to Cardiff and the odds are that the Canadians will need public transport. Word is that the flights are booking well with 60% Canadians v 40% Brits.

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To be fair, it is the M4 that I am pleased is back into the debate. Though I really really do not want a Reform win.
To make the M4 issue (Newport section) clear: Reform said they would build it but charge a toll - hence most people would say on the present route; the Conservatives say they would build it and not charge tolls. Labour, Plaid Cymru, Lib Dems and the Greens would not build a new M4 south of Newport.

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Swanline should be 1tph plus dont forget the Vale of Glamorgan Council pushing that parkway station at Miskin. They need that new road from jct34 through to sycamore cross to link to the a48 and 5 mile lane offering easy link between the m4 and Cardiff airport.

Local villages should remember this new road will reduce the amount of traffic rat running through them. I.hated driving the 320 bus service for that reason
£3 million was spent on planning the link road from M4 J34 (Miskin) to Sycamore Cross. Much opposition in the Pendoylan area scuppered that plan - hence all the traffic going through country lanes that link J34 with the A48 at Sycamore Cross (near Bonvilston) to reach the A4266 heading to Barry & the Airport. Go on Google Maps & put in fro a journey from Swansea to Cardiff Airport and you will find that the number suggestion from Google is the route from J34 through the country lanes to Sycamore Cross - and no doubt many satnavs are telling people to go that way as well. It is unfortunate that the Welsh Government have failed to sign post the most effective route from the M4 at J37 (Pyle) to Cardiff Airport preferring to leave up old road signs directing people from west Wales to go via J33 and the overloaded route through Culverhouse Cross.

The idea of a new station at Miskin to serve Cardiff Airport via a bus link (on a new road) is just not viable. The direct trains between Cardiff and Bridgend via the 2 mile bus link from Rhoose is the far better option and that route already exists - apart from the fact that TFW still only running 1 train per hour (1 every other hour on Sundays). Incredible given that between Pontypridd and Cardiff and Caerphilly and Cardiff it is about 1 train every 10 minutes.

The greatest danger on those country lanes is the cycling lycra clad lot who think they are on the Tour de France and go whizzing around blind corners at full belt with their heads looking down at the road so they are more streamlined. They are certainly not out admiring the countryside!

A consultation recently took place regarding Cogan station.
"We need your help to improve Cogan railway station and its surrounding area. Please complete this short survey to tell us what it’s like using the station and how we can make it better. Our survey is live until 10 December 2025."
Our survey is live until 10 December 2025.

The Welsh Government own land in the Lavernock area (between Cosmeston and Sully) and have given permission for new housing to be built on this land. The route of the former railway runs through this area and has been protected as a potential extension of the Penarth line. Goodness knows how they will get around the street of houses that block this route?
 
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Topological

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Westjet are flying 4 days per week this summer with services from Toronto to Cardiff and the odds are that the Canadians will need public transport. Word is that the flights are booking well with 60% Canadians v 40% Brits.

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To make the M4 issue (Newport section) clear: Reform said they would build it but charge a toll - hence most people would say on the present route; the Conservatives say they would build it and not charge tolls. Labour, Plaid Cymru, Lib Dems and the Greens would not build a new M4 south of Newport.

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£3 million was spent on planning the link road from M4 J34 (Miskin) to Sycamore Cross. Much opposition in the Pendoylan area scuppered that plan - hence all the traffic going through country lanes that link J34 with the A48 at Sycamore Cross (near Bonvilston) to reach the A4266 heading to Barry & the Airport. Go on Google Maps & put in fro a journey from Swansea to Cardiff Airport and you will find that the number suggestion from Google is the route from J34 through the country lanes to Sycamore Cross - and no doubt many satnavs are telling people to go that way as well. It is unfortunate that the Welsh Government have failed to sign post the most effective route from the M4 at J37 (Pyle) to Cardiff Airport preferring to leave up old road signs directing people from west Wales to go via J33 and the overloaded route through Culverhouse Cross.

The idea of a new station at Miskin to serve Cardiff Airport via a bus link (on a new road) is just not viable. The direct trains between Cardiff and Bridgend via the 2 mile bus link from Rhoose is the far better option and that route already exists - apart from the fact that TFW still only running 1 train per hour (1 every other hour on Sundays). Incredible given that between Pontypridd and Cardiff and Caerphilly and Cardiff it is about 1 train every 10 minutes.

The greatest danger on those country lanes is the cycling lycra clad lot who think they are on the Tour de France and go whizzing around blind corners at full belt with their heads looking down at the road so they are more streamlined. They are certainly not out admiring the countryside!

A consultation recently took place regarding Cogan station.

Our survey is live until 10 December 2025.

The Welsh Government own land in the Lavernock area (between Cosmeston and Sully) and have given permission for new housing to be built on this land. The route of the former railway runs through this area and has been protected as a potential extension of the Penarth line. Goodness knows how they will get around the street of houses that block this route?
I hope that the Westjet service proves popular. Cardiff needs it.

Thanks for the summary on the M4. That is my vote sorted. The economist in me does not want to pay a toll, but if it could avoid the extra time crawling through Newport then I would do so. A lot would depend on where exactly they put the junctions. I cannot believe that there has not been a serious alternative proposal to resolve Newport from Labour. For example, an outer ring A road and close all the junctions on the M4. I think the advantage having the loud Reform talking about the M4 is that the news agenda follows Reform. Not many seem to talk about the Conservatives here.

Since this is a rail thread, it is probably better to talk about the station proposals. I do think that a more regular service for Rhoose is the first step, so sort out the junction at the Bridgend end and have a Swansea to Cardiff via Rhoose train. Assuming that the main line gets electrified (which it really should) then you can use bimodes that run on battery between Bridgend and picking up the wires on the VoG at Barry (which is where it should be). In that way the local stations between Swansea and Bridgend get 2tph, one Swanline and one of these new "via Rhoose" trains. VoG stations get 1tph as now plus the new Swansea train to make 2tph and the locals on Bridgend to Cardiff still get 2tph. I think you could increase both VoG and the via Pontyclun to more than 2tph, especially the latter when electrified.

Again it all feels like the parties are just not showing any ambition in these campaigns. Normally you would get someone proposing something radical to force the debate.
 

Dai Corner

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Since this is a rail thread, it is probably better to talk about the station proposals. I do think that a more regular service for Rhoose is the first step, so sort out the junction at the Bridgend end and have a Swansea to Cardiff via Rhoose train. Assuming that the main line gets electrified (which it really should) then you can use bimodes that run on battery between Bridgend and picking up the wires on the VoG at Barry (which is where it should be). In that way the local stations between Swansea and Bridgend get 2tph, one Swanline and one of these new "via Rhoose" trains. VoG stations get 1tph as now plus the new Swansea train to make 2tph and the locals on Bridgend to Cardiff still get 2tph. I think you could increase both VoG and the via Pontyclun to more than 2tph, especially the latter when electrified.
I'm not sure passengers from west of Bridgend to Cardiff or beyond would benefit from (or use) trains via Rhoose. In the current timetable the trains via Rhoose are overtaken by GWR and TfW trains via the main line. As well as saving time, changing at Bridgend also potentially saves money by taking advantage of the PAYG fares. Barry Island lost one of its 4 hourly services when Rhoose and Llantwitt Major gained theirs, presumably due to line capacity east of Barry. Would it have to be reduced to half hourly?
 

Cardiff123

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Again it all feels like the parties are just not showing any ambition in these campaigns. Normally you would get someone proposing something radical to force the debate.
That's because powers & funding for rail infrastructure is not devolved to Welsh Government, and unless and until it is, any projects proposed by Welsh Govt & TfW will be subject to agreement and funding from UK Government, which has repeatedly shown under both Labour and Conservative UK governments, that it's rarely interested in rail infrastructure in Wales.

Full devolution of rail infrastructure to Welsh Government is the only way to ensure Wales gets the funding and powers it needs to truly transform it's rail infrastructure.
Plaid and the Greens are the only parties pushing for this in this Senedd election.
 
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Dai Corner

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That's because powers & funding for rail infrastructure is not devolved to Welsh Government, and unless and until it is, any projects proposed by Welsh Govt & TfW will be subject to agreement and funding from UK Government, which has repeatedly shown under both Labour and Conservative UK governments, that it's rarely interested in rail infrastructure in Wales.

Full devolution of rail infrastructure to Welsh Government is the only way to ensure Wales gets the funding and powers it needs to truly transform it's rail infrastructure.
Plaid and the Greens are the only parties pushing for this in this Senedd election.
Network Rail are more than happy to make changes/improvements to their infrastructure as long as somebody will pay. They did the partial doubling of the Ebbw Vale branch, for example.

(Incidentally, Plaid were against devolution in 2005 when the Welsh Labour Government had the opportunity. Two years later Plaid leader Ieuan Wyn Jones was Deputy First Minister and Transport Minister and still agreed with Labour).
 

Topological

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I'm not sure passengers from west of Bridgend to Cardiff or beyond would benefit from (or use) trains via Rhoose. In the current timetable the trains via Rhoose are overtaken by GWR and TfW trains via the main line. As well as saving time, changing at Bridgend also potentially saves money by taking advantage of the PAYG fares. Barry Island lost one of its 4 hourly services when Rhoose and Llantwitt Major gained theirs, presumably due to line capacity east of Barry. Would it have to be reduced to half hourly?
The idea is to connect Cardiff Airport to West Wales via rail. I doubt anyone would use the train throughout. It is just an extra service from Swansea to Bridgend (for locals going to/from Swansea) joined onto a VoG service. The through part just caters for anyone who does want to do journeys to Lantwit, Rhoose or Barry. I do not know how it works branding wise to have a South Wales Metro continuing further in South Wales though. Probably just like the old Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street in that regards, just without the Merseyrail pacers.

I think that something needs to be done to improve that limit on the Barry section. My outsider understanding was that it was on the desired list as 2tph on the VoG was in the Cardiff Metro plan.

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Network Rail are more than happy to make changes/improvements to their infrastructure as long as somebody will pay. They did the partial doubling of the Ebbw Vale branch, for example.

(Incidentally, Plaid were against devolution in 2005 when the Welsh Labour Government had the opportunity. Two years later Plaid leader Ieuan Wyn Jones was Deputy First Minister and Transport Minister and still agreed with Labour).
I suppose it is good when parties change their position eventually. From my perspective supporting the devolution to deliver the metro is a good idea so I wont blame anyone for u-turning on that.

There is a bigger question about rail, devolution and the necessary collaboration between Cardiff and Bristol. However, that is very much for a different thread.
 

Dai Corner

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The idea is to connect Cardiff Airport to West Wales via rail. I doubt anyone would use the train throughout. It is just an extra service from Swansea to Bridgend (for locals going to/from Swansea) joined onto a VoG service. The through part just caters for anyone who does want to do journeys to Lantwit, Rhoose or Barry. I do not know how it works branding wise to have a South Wales Metro continuing further in South Wales though. Probably just like the old Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street in that regards, just without the Merseyrail pacers.

I think that something needs to be done to improve that limit on the Barry section. My outsider understanding was that it was on the desired list as 2tph on the VoG was in the Cardiff Metro plan.
It boils down to whether Barry Island or the airport is the most important destination I suppose. How about favouring the former in the summer timetable and the latter in the winter one? :s
 

Topological

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It boils down to whether Barry Island or the airport is the most important destination I suppose. How about favouring the former in the summer timetable and the latter in the winter one? :s
The "people should holiday locally" advocate in me would support such favouring of Barry Island in the summer.

However, the airport is busier in the summer, so it is a bit of a dilemma.

Another thought is whether you can have a shuttle from Barry to Barry Island, potentially one that connects with both VoG trains.
 

Envoy

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To clarify Labour’s proposals for the railways in Wales I suggest you read this BBC article:>
"A Welsh government source told the BBC it was "the biggest day in devolution", but opponents accused the Labour UK government of "reheating" old announcements".


Eluned Morgan (Labour & current First Minister of Wales) hopes that the new stations planned between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff (see BBC link) will help reduce traffic on the overloaded M4 around Newport. Those entitled to vote in the May Senedd election should consider their view on the matter of such improvements to the rail services v building a new M4 south of Newport. Something to consider - along with all the other issues that matter to you.

The Marches Line links south Wales with north Wales / north west England. You will notice that much of the signalling is the old semaphore type with the original signal boxes at places like Abergavenny and Shrewsbury. The long block sections limit the number of trains that can run on this line. When the new master control centre was built at Canton, it was supposed to take over control of the Marches Line - but Network Rail failed to deliver this along with modern signalling. Even if Wales gained full control of all the rail infrastructure, it would surely not get control of The Marches Line as most of it is in England. So, it would appear that it is not just Wales that has been short changed by the UK Government regarding rail funding - but also good bits of England. (Yes, this is still relevant to the SE Wales Metro as it includes the Marches Line as far north as Abergavenny).

Mention has been made of running VOG Coast Line trains through to Swansea - which could certainly help connectivity. I would also like to suggest that perhaps the hourly TFW Cheltenham service could be extended at least to Bridgend thereby ‘plugging in’ the Gloucester/Cheltenham population to direct services to Rhoose (for airport). It also sorts out the problem of turn backs at Cardiff Central.
 
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Caaardiff

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The footfall for Cardiff Airport would be minimal in it's current form, passenger numbers would need to significantly grow to warrant a Swansea/West Wales direct link to the VOG and Cardiff Airport. I doubt there's much more demand for the West towards Barry either.
It would also take some investment in the junctions at Bridgend.
In it's current infrastructure, the 2tph from Bridgend would connect better with mainline services. The issue would be East of Barry where there's already a train every 10-20 mins. An all stops Bridgend - Barry, then fast to Cardiff may be a better option. It could even then extend to Cheltenham.

Labour, Plaid Cymru, Lib Dems and the Greens would not build a new M4 south of Newport.
Didn't Plaid announce this week that they support a relief road?
 

Envoy

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The footfall for Cardiff Airport would be minimal in it's current form, passenger numbers would need to significantly grow to warrant a Swansea/West Wales direct link to the VOG and Cardiff Airport. I doubt there's much more demand for the West towards Barry either.
It would also take some investment in the junctions at Bridgend.
In it's current infrastructure, the 2tph from Bridgend would connect better with mainline services. The issue would be East of Barry where there's already a train every 10-20 mins. An all stops Bridgend - Barry, then fast to Cardiff may be a better option. It could even then extend to Cheltenham.
Plenty of passengers use Rhoose station - many with cases & clearly using the trains and shuttle bus to/from the Airport. The roads from Llantwit Major, Rhoose and Barry are overloaded and I would expect many of these car commuters to use the trains if they had a half hourly service.

Didn't Plaid announce this week that they support a relief road?
It sounds like Plaid Cymru are now suggesting that the cheapskate Blue route should be considered. This involves improving the present road through south Newport rather than building a new M4 with 3 lanes each way (the Black route).

You can see more information on this by clicking this link:> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/new-road-relieve-congestion-m4-33729931
"Mr ap Iorwerth suggested that Plaid Cymru in government would look for a cheaper alternative route to the plan for a six-lane £1.5bn M4 relief road south of Newport known as the 'Black Route', which was backed and then ditched by Welsh Labour."
 
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anthony263

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I did see somewhere.them mentioning that upgrading that dual carriageway wouldn't be possible now.due to the amount of new housing along it.

So a new road although slightly further north eg red route i think was being looked at as it avoids the docks.

The VOG needs its half hourly service and we urgently need central to cogan wired
 

Rhydgaled

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manifesto and their wish list / ambitions for the rail network in Wales.
These of course are all dependant on the next Welsh Government getting the funding from Westminister, as rail infrastructure is not devolved.
Although previous Welsh Government(s) have (for example) increased the amount of double track between Wrexham and Chester. Presumably WG is free to divert funds from other things to spend on rail infrastructure should they choose, they just don't get an allocation of money for it from Westminster?
 

Cardiff123

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Although previous Welsh Government(s) have (for example) increased the amount of double track between Wrexham and Chester. Presumably WG is free to divert funds from other things to spend on rail infrastructure should they choose, they just don't get an allocation of money for it from Westminster?
Yes, Welsh Govt must take money out of other devolved budgets, such as health and education, if it wants to fund rail infrastructure improvements that Westminster has refused to fund. Where as Scotland and Northern Ireland get funding to spend directly on rail infrastructure included in their annual devolved budget from Westminster. It's impossible to argue that is at all fair on Wales, and it's why the HS2 consequential funding that Welsh Govt has missed out on (but that was given to Scotland & Northern Ireland) has cut through with the public.
 
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anthony263

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Ive attached two screenshot from a local Facebook group suggesting the 1st of the class 398 units is to enter service on 23rd May. 0515 Taff's well depot to Cardiff Central to be 1st trip then Cardiff Central to Pontypridd.

Whether or not this actually works i guess we will have to see what happens on the day.
 

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EveningStarr

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Although not as ideal, might it be possible to run the second VoG train from the west, terminating at Barry Town? Be that from Bridgend, Maesteg or even Swansea. You'd then advertise the Barry Island service from Central as connecting to the VoG train, and the Barry Town terminator connecting with the ones to and from the Island. I haven't looked at timings and crossover issues at Barry Town yet, but food for thought...?
 

Peter Sarf

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Although not as ideal, might it be possible to run the second VoG train from the west, terminating at Barry Town? Be that from Bridgend, Maesteg or even Swansea. You'd then advertise the Barry Island service from Central as connecting to the VoG train, and the Barry Town terminator connecting with the ones to and from the Island. I haven't looked at timings and crossover issues at Barry Town yet, but food for thought...?
I would be tempted to make Barry Town to Barry Island a very frequent shuttle using one unit - it is not far, perhaps 15 minutes round trip possible. That would leave the main Vale of Glamorgan route as a through route perhaps making journeys from the Swansea direction more attractive to the airport and Cardiff itself. Would also make Barry Island easier from Swansea due to a more frequent connection at Barry Town. If I remember correctly there is a platform face on the correct side for a shuttle to Barry Island.

You could be right though if Barry Island is the main traffic generator.
 

Cardiff123

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Although not as ideal, might it be possible to run the second VoG train from the west, terminating at Barry Town? Be that from Bridgend, Maesteg or even Swansea. You'd then advertise the Barry Island service from Central as connecting to the VoG train, and the Barry Town terminator connecting with the ones to and from the Island. I haven't looked at timings and crossover issues at Barry Town yet, but food for thought...?
There's currently no signal or crossover at Barry to terminate services from the VoG from the west.
Platform 3 at Barry allows services from Cardiff to terminate at there, and in theory could allow a shuttle between Barry and the Island, but considering the trains for Barry in future will be 756s, it would be a waste of a unit.
 

Topological

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There's currently no signal or crossover at Barry to terminate services from the VoG from the west.
Platform 3 at Barry allows services from Cardiff to terminate at there, and in theory could allow a shuttle between Barry and the Island, but considering the trains for Barry in future will be 756s, it would be a waste of a unit.
Would there be any mileage in having a 398 shuttling between Barry Island and Barry?

Longer-term extensions might be possible to Colcot or the Airport. It is not an area I know well, but there does seem to be a large residential population a long way from the railway.
 

Topological

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Possibly, but without wires, it depends on how long it could manage on just battery power. My guess is not very long at all.
Would need a charging option. But would be better than using a 756 for the purpose and would allow possible extensions.
 

EveningStarr

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There's currently no signal or crossover at Barry to terminate services from the VoG from the west.
Platform 3 at Barry allows services from Cardiff to terminate at there, and in theory could allow a shuttle between Barry and the Island, but considering the trains for Barry in future will be 756s, it would be a waste of a unit.
Ah yes, I was misremembering the track layout. That being said, physically it would still be possible I think, arriving into platform 1, shunting Up to the signal and back into plt2 for the return journey, however that would be potentially disruptive if doing it on a regular basis.

If going with the Barry Island shuttle idea, how about getting a heritage operation going? Operated by what's left of the Barry Tourist Railway, subsidised by TfW...
If you've ever been at BYI on a sunny Saturday though, you'd know a 4-car train direct to the Valleys and Central is absolutely the best option, very much needed for the crowds going each way.
 

Daniel Boone

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My idea would be to incorporate this into a wider scheme which sees a passing loop installed on the Coryton line to enable 4tph. This would enable you to shift twice hourly Penarth-Caerphilly services to become Penarth-Coryton. This gives you 4tph Penarth-Coryton. Now instead of the Caerphilly terminating services going to Penarth they'd go to either Bridgend or Barry Island.
Ultimately,
2tph Caerphilly - Bridgend
4tph Rhymney - Barry Island
4tph Coryton - Penarth

This depends on whether there is capacity at Central and Queen Street of course.
 
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SWML9102

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My idea would be to incorporate this into a wider scheme which sees a passing loop installed on the Coryton line to enable 4tph. This would enable you to shift twice hourly Penarth-Caerphilly services to become Penarth-Coryton. This gives you 4tph Penarth-Coryton. Now instead of the Caerphilly terminating services going to Penarth they'd go to either Bridgend or Barry Island.
Ultimately,
2tph Caerphilly - Bridgend
4tph Rhymney - Barry Island
4tph Coryton - Penarth

This depends on whether there is capacity at Central and Queen Street of course.
That sounds good to me. Barry can justify a 10 minute frequency if Caerphilly and Pontypridd can.

For passengers from the west towards the airport or Barry, what is needed is good connections at Bridgend, so a 30 min frequency on the Vale of Glamorgan route to start. And ideally also with a more consistent and regular frequency on the main line to Swansea too, even if they are all stops.

However, what the majority of passengers want is to get to/from Cardiff, so diverting mainline or Maesteg trains via the Vale would not be welcome, nor would making them change at Barry go down well at all.
 

anthony263

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That sounds good to me. Barry can justify a 10 minute frequency if Caerphilly and Pontypridd can.

For passengers from the west towards the airport or Barry, what is needed is good connections at Bridgend, so a 30 min frequency on the Vale of Glamorgan route to start. And ideally also with a more consistent and regular frequency on the main line to Swansea too, even if they are all stops.

However, what the majority of passengers want is to get to/from Cardiff, so diverting mainline or Maesteg trains via the Vale would not be welcome, nor would making them change at Barry go down well at all.
2tph planned in the future for the Maesteg branch after resignalling and upgrading of the loop at Tondu. However only 1tph will run to Cardiff thw other will be a shuttle to Bridgend.

Think.brackla station need to be built too thats very long overdue
 

positron

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With Plaid having a near majority in the Senedd I suspect one future metro project they'll try to prioritise to show them doing their bit for under prioritised valleys will surely be 2tph on the Maesteg line. Especially when it's probably quite a cheap change in railway terms.
 

Topological

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Totally Devil's Advocate, but if Plaid want to do something to show care for the valleys then the answer lies in the 398s.

  1. The 398s are great and Plaid are in charge when they are introduced. Hail the whole project as a success and get more.
  2. The 398s have the issues that some suggest. Plaid find the get out clause and blame all the delays on Labour's insistence on pushing forward with a project that was clearly flawed.

There is an option 3 in which the 398s are ok, but not great and Plaid do nothing. However, that outcome would not signal any progress to the valleys. Focus in that case may well be Maesteg and Bridgend via the VoG. An extra train from Cardiff to Swansea may help relatively cheaply too.
 

positron

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Doesn’t that need a new loop north of Tondu?
Yes, but that's surely cheaper than the cost of the Ebbw Vale works that the Welsh government funded. In fact there is already a loop at tondu so I'll not really sure what work is actually needed on it.
 

anthony263

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Track work and resignalling. However I do think another loop should be looked at between lynfi jct and wildmill to help with delays at Bridgend caused by trains waiting for late services to clear the branch.

Electrification of the mainline to Swansea along with separating swanline and Swansea to Pembroke Dock services again would help along with wiring central to Cogan and put a loop on the Penarth branch
 

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