SNP to launch fresh Scottish independence campaign

[DynamicSpirit]

Scotland has been ignored, sidelined and mismanaged by successive WM governments, its not about Boris, he is just the latest in a long line.

Really? Yet under the Barnett formula, Scotland has consistently received more funding per head than England and Wales - a considerable net subsidy. It has its own devolved Government which has considerable control over Scottish affairs, paid for in part by that Barnett formula funding which means the Scottish Government has more money to distribute than almost anywhere else in the UK.

What basis do you have for claiming that Scotland has been 'ignored, sidelined and mismanaged by successive WM governments'? Do you have any evidence for that, or is it just SNP propaganda that has no basis in reality?

 

[Berliner]

Yet the Tories did authorise a legal vote in quite recent memory.

You seem to be making out that the Tories are somehow opposed in principle to letting the people of Scotland have a say. I don't believe that's the case at all. They are opposed to allowing another referendum simply because Scotland has already had a referendum, and it's not particularly democratic to keep having referendum after referendum until you get the result that one side wants (which seems to be the position of the SNP).

Surely the most democratic thing any government can do is ask a population what it wants? Your statement that it is not democratic to keep having referendum is illogical. And yes I do think the tories, especially the Tories we have today, are dead against another referendum because of thier track record. It will be incredibly hard for them to defend the union this time around as they are simply despised in Scotland and so much has been done under thier watch which has made Scotland worse off. They are terrified of us having a say. The current government is not the same kind we had under Cameron. Johnsons Tories are an undemocratic, authoritarian, law breaking cabal who simply cannot be trusted.

This is not a case of the SNP asking until they get what they want. It is a case of the UK has changed dramatically and the parties that are proposing independence are still winning elections in Scotland with manifestos proposing independence. Clearly the Scottish electorate aren't done with this issue. It is absolutely our right to vote on this issue again.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You are saying you mistrust the work of Civil Servants in outlining OECD data?

Emulating the success of Ireland's economy would be the highest success for the new Scottish State going by yesterdays publication. Why do you see that as a bad thing?

View attachment 116243

You need to do a lot better than that as evidence. Look at that graph again: It's very obviously cherry-picked to show only those countries that had a higher GDP per head than the UK, while ignoring the (vastly greater) number of countries that had a lower GDP per head than the UK.

Now look at the date on the graph: It says, 2020. You may recall a certain worldwide thing that started in China and spread around the World around February-March 2020, and which screwed over the GDPs of just about every country in the World for the remainder of that year. In short, not remotely a typical year. The only possible reasons you'd use a graph of that year without pointing out the anomaly is either (a) if you don't understand statistics, or (b) if you're deliberately trying to mislead people. Which one do you think it is behind this graph, bearing in mind the obvious cherry-picking of countries shown?

One other point: Just showing that other countries have high GDPs gives no reason one way or the other to believe that an independent Scotland would have an equally high GDP.

 

[Berliner]

Really? Yet under the Barnett formula, Scotland has consistently received more funding per head than England and Wales - a considerable net subsidy. It has its own devolved Government which has considerable control over Scottish affairs, paid for in part by that Barnett formula funding which means the Scottish Government has more money to distribute than almost anywhere else in the UK.

What basis do you have for claiming that Scotland has been 'ignored, sidelined and mismanaged by successive WM governments'? Do you have any evidence for that, or is it just SNP propaganda that has no basis in reality?

Can you name a single piece of advice or policy with which Scotland influenced the brexit process?

Gibraltar voted remain and got a compromised deal which saw it remain close to the EU.
England voted out and got out.
Walses voted out and got out.
NI voted to remain and has basically remained in for the purposes of trade and movement of goods and People to/from EU territory.
Scotland voted remain and has had absolutely no compromise given in any area whatsoever and is out.

 

[Wynd]

You need to do a lot better than that as evidence. Look at that graph again: It's very obviously cherry-picked to show only those countries that had a higher GDP per head than the UK, while ignoring the (vastly greater) number of countries that had a lower GDP per head than the UK.

Now look at the date on the graph: It says, 2020. You may recall a certain worldwide thing that started in China, spread around the World in Febuary-March 2020 that screwed over the GDPs of just about every country in the World for the remainder of that year. In short, not remotely a typical year. The only possible reasons you'd use a graph of that year without pointing out the anomaly is either (a) if you don't understand statistics, or (b) if you're deliberately trying to mislead people. Which one do you think it is behind this graph, bearing in mind the obvious cherry-picking of countries shown?

One other point: Just showing that other countries have high GDPs gives no reason one way or the other to believe that an independent Scotland would have an equally high GDP.

Its up to you to decide of you accept the evidence presented to you or not.

I suggest you read the report to understand why the countries under discussion have been chosen as the comparitors.

The evidence, as it stands, very much supports the argument that the management of the Scottish economy has been poor under Westminster. This is one driver for the sentiment in Scotland.

If you have evidence to show that it has been well managed, particularly in comparison to the nations outlined, I imagine many would be delighted to see that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Cue the condescending "300 years was a long time ago, things were different" diatribes.

You know you can't make something less funny or far fetched by pre-empting what people will inevitably say about it.

 

[Falcon1200]

The UK doesn't even try to mitigate the loss of free movement, or even apologise. They just say "Tough sh*t, get over it" to the Scots.

I find this fixation on the loss of free movement bizarre; I have lived in Scotland since 1984 and do not know anyone, either at work or outside, who had any desire to relocate, permanently or not, to any part of the current EU; OTOH I know many, many who have moved to Scotland from other parts of the UK, or who have family elsewhere in the UK.

They formed government.

They did, and have (in coalition) a mandate to govern - But not to break up the UK, that is a separate issue altogether.

And as an aside - in the spirit of keeping a reasonably civil atmosphere, would you please avoid phrases like "little Green helpers"?

What is uncivil about that phrase ? They are little (7 MSPs out of 129), they are Green, and they are helping the SNP to govern (in the loosest sense of the word).

Is it any wonder Scotland wants to return to Independence.

Does it ? Some Scots do but a huge number do not, despite the arrogance of the SNP believing it speaks for all of us.

 

[AlterEgo]

You need to do a lot better than that as evidence. Look at that graph again: It's very obviously cherry-picked to show only those countries that had a higher GDP per head than the UK, while ignoring the (vastly greater) number of countries that had a lower GDP per head than the UK.

Now look at the date on the graph: It says, 2020. You may recall a certain worldwide thing that started in China and spread around the World around February-March 2020, and which screwed over the GDPs of just about every country in the World for the remainder of that year. In short, not remotely a typical year. The only possible reasons you'd use a graph of that year without pointing out the anomaly is either (a) if you don't understand statistics, or (b) if you're deliberately trying to mislead people. Which one do you think it is behind this graph, bearing in mind the obvious cherry-picking of countries shown?

One other point: Just showing that other countries have high GDPs gives no reason one way or the other to believe that an independent Scotland would have an equally high GDP.

And in any case GDP is just one metric.

"Ireland has a successful economy" - go and tell that to all the 20 something graduates in Dublin who can't even afford to rent a closet there. It isn't all milk and honey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And in any case GDP is just one metric.

"Ireland has a successful economy" - go and tell that to all the 20 something graduates in Dublin who can't even afford to rent a closet there. It isn't all milk and honey.

To be fair Edinburgh is probably as bad.

 

[Berliner]

I find this fixation on the loss of free movement bizarre; I have lived in Scotland since 1984 and do not know anyone, either at work or outside, who had any desire to relocate, permanently or not, to any part of the current EU; OTOH I know many, many who have moved to Scotland from other parts of the UK, or who have family elsewhere in the UK.

That's your personal circumstances.

I know many who have lived around the UK (myself included) but also many people who's lives were completely changed for the worse when FOM was stolen from us. Not just in Scotland either. Basically, just because you and your circle didn't value something doesn't mean it is not missed by many. It doesn't make it unimportant. The fact is being part of rhe UK has meant we have lost a fundamentalright many of us were born with and actively used. There has been no attempt whatsoever by the UK Government to apologise or mitigate this. It really was a case of we won, you lost, move on.

Now in the case we do get independence there is nothing whatsoever stopping those who wish to go to UK freely from doing so. Not only are we almost certainly going to remain in the CTA, but those born with British passports will always be able to retain them unless the UK decides on a whim to revoke that right only for Scottish citizens. There is no simple path to free movement to the EU anymore if you only have access to a UK passport.

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair Edinburgh is probably as bad.

That'll be all Westminster's fault I'm sure.

 

[DustyBin]

Most Scots I know see their identity as Scottish first, European seconds and British third.

Anecdotally the vast majority of Scots I know see themselves as Scottish first, British Second and European third. Swap Scottish for English and I see myself the same way, although I'm not offended by any of the three descriptions and only relatively recently began thinking of myself as English first.

 

[Falcon1200]

Now in the case we do get independence there is nothing whatsoever stopping those who wish to go to UK freely from doing so.

That is surely one of the (many) Great Unknowns should independence happen. While I live in Scotland I am not Scottish and have no wish to become such, therefore I may end up as a non-EU citizen living in an EU country. What would that mean ? I have no idea, and I doubt anyone else from Nicola Sturgeon downwards has either.

 

[Wynd]

And in any case GDP is just one metric.

"Ireland has a successful economy" - go and tell that to all the 20 something graduates in Dublin who can't even afford to rent a closet there. It isn't all milk and honey.

Your right, its pointless trying to grow your economy and become wealthier. The Scots should just forget about it and accept their lot in the UK.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Can you name a single piece of advice or policy with which Scotland influenced the brexit process?

Yes, I believe I can. A quick check of the numbers suggests that Theresa May's Brexit deal was voted down in Westminster by the votes of Scottish MPs. (Funnily enough, I don't recall anyone at the time complaining that Scotland was dictating to the rest of the UK, despite the SNP raising that same complaint in reverse almost whenever they are on the losing side of a vote... Double standards, anyone?).

Gibraltar voted remain and got a compromised deal which saw it remain close to the EU.
England voted out and got out.
Walses voted out and got out.
NI voted to remain and has basically remained in for the purposes of trade and movement of goods and People to/from EU territory.
Scotland voted remain and has had absolutely no compromise given in any area whatsoever and is out.

That is NOT evidence of mismanagement or of Scotland being repeatedly ignored. It's evidence of democracy at work and Scottish MPs being in a minority in a democratic vote on ONE single (albeit very important) decision.

 

[Berliner]

That is surely one of the (many) Great Unknowns should independence happen. While I live in Scotland I am not Scottish and have no wish to become such, therefore I may end up as a non-EU citizen living in an EU country. What would that mean ? I have no idea, and I doubt anyone else from Nicola Sturgeon downwards has either.

This was explained in the white paper last time and the details will come out this time round too. Its not a great unknown. You will obviously be catered for. You won't be forced to obtain citizenship of a country you don't want to be a citizen of.

 

[Falcon1200]

Your right, its pointless trying to grow your economy and become wealthier.

Not sure how Scotland will manage to grow its economy and become wealthier by creating an artificial barrier with its overwhelmingly major trading partner ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==

This was explained in the white paper last time and the details will come out this time round too. Its not a great unknown. You will obviously be catered for. You won't be forced to obtain citizenship of a country you don't want to be a citizen of.

So can I assume there have been no adverse post-Brexit affects, whatsoever, on Britons who have remained EU residents ? Sorry, but I remain to be convinced.

 

[Wynd]

Yes I can. A quick check of the numbers suggests that Theresa May's Brexit deal was voted down by the votes of Scottish MPs. (Funnily enough, I don't recall anyone at the time complaining that Scotland was dictating to the rest of the UK, despite the SNP raising that same complaint in reverse almost whenever they are on the losing side of a vote... Double standards, anyone?).



That is NOT evidence of mismanagement or of Scotland being repeatedly ignored. It's evidence of democracy at work and Scottish MPs being in a minority in a democratic vote on ONE single (albeit very important) decision.

Well done for demonstrating that Scotland gets no say. The SG put forwards proposals for Single Market membership, whcih the UK Gov dismissed within an hour without reading it. https://www.ft.com/content/1b48c556-c5e6-11e6-9043-7e34c07b46ef

Having less than 10% say in Westminster is the primary reason many want to no longer be a part of the WM system, its not democratic, because Scottish MP's have virtually zero power,

 

[Berliner]

Yes I can. A quick check of the numbers suggests that Theresa May's Brexit deal was voted down in Westminster by the votes of Scottish MPs. (Funnily enough, I don't recall anyone at the time complaining that Scotland was dictating to the rest of the UK, despite the SNP raising that same complaint in reverse almost whenever they are on the losing side of a vote... Double standards, anyone?).



That is NOT evidence of mismanagement or of Scotland being repeatedly ignored. It's evidence of democracy at work and Scottish MPs being in a minority in a democratic vote on ONE single (albeit very important) decision.

OK, spin it all you like, but it doesn't look good when Scotland was the only part which got the total opposite to what it voted for and it won't be easy to defend in the upcoming campaign for independence. Especially as the tories will be the ones who made these choices and will be The ones defending them. Itll be even harder If we end up with a "No" figurehead aligned with another party trying desperately to defend tory policy.

 

[AlterEgo]

Your right, its pointless trying to grow your economy and become wealthier. The Scots should just forget about it and accept their lot in the UK.

As you'll no doubt have read, I support Scottish independence in principle. But as posed, the question is problematic and the lack of critical thinking or acceptance of sacrifice mirrors many of the problems with the Brexit referendum.

 

[Berliner]

Not sure how Scotland will manage to grow its economy and become wealthier by creating an artificial barrier with its overwhelmingly major trading partner ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==



So can I assume there have been no adverse post-Brexit affects, whatsoever, on Britons who have remained EU residents ? Sorry, but I remain to be convinced.

Who was in charge of negotiating the post brexit status of brits in the EU?

It certainly wasn't the SNP or Scottish Government. You can remain to be convinced all you like but just because the tories treated these people like bargaining chips doesn't mean history will repeat itself under entirely different circumstances. Wait for the proposed polices to come out and then judge.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

OK, spin it all you like, but it doesn't look good when Scotland was the only part which got the total opposite to what it voted for and it won't be easy to defend in the upcoming campaign for independence. Especially as the tories will be the ones who made these choices and will be The ones defending them. Itll be even harder If we end up with a "No" figurehead aligned with another party trying desperately to defend tory policy.

To my mind, this seems to show a complete misunderstanding of how democracy works. The way it works is that you take a vote, and whichever side gets the most votes, that's the decision you go with. Scotland has (if I recall correctly) about 8% of the population of the UK and therefore gets to contribute 8% towards UK-wide votes. That means that Scotland/Scottish MPs get an 8% say in many things that impact the other 92% of UK residents, in return for those residents getting a say on some things that - by virtue of being UK-wide, impact Scotland. If Scottish MPs are outvoted by others, it doesn't mean that they are being unfairly ignored (any more than it means that - say - Greenwich - is being unfairly ignored if Greenwich's three MPs are on the losing side in a Westminster vote): It simply means that they were in a minority.

If Scotland gets independence, and gets an SNP Government, or an SNP-Green coalition wielding absolute power, then what should those areas of Scotland that didn't vote SNP or for independence do? (For example, the Scottish Borders areas which consistently tend to vote Tory). Can they rightfully claim that they have an SNP Government imposed on them that they didn't vote for and that therefore they should get independence from the rest of Scotland? That is after all the logic of your/the SNP's arguments about being somehow ignored. Hopefully it's obvious that if you go all the way down that route, you end up with unworkable anarchy.

If you want independence because you somehow feel that that's where your emotional attachment lies or because you feel that people's lives would be better with an independent Scotland, than that's fair enough. It's a legitimate position to hold. But this continual stuff about being somehow ignored or mismanaged is - frankly - misleading rubbish/SNP propaganda.

 

[johncrossley]

To my mind, this seems to show a complete misunderstanding of how democracy works. The way it works is that you take a vote, and whichever side gets the most votes, that's the decision you go with.

Northern Ireland and Gibraltar had a much smaller percentage of the vote than Scotland.

 

[najaB]

There is a very real danger that EU influence over an independent Scotland surpasses that of the of the Westminster government under the current arrangement.

Pull the other one.

I find this fixation on the loss of free movement bizarre; I have lived in Scotland since 1984 and do not know anyone, either at work or outside, who had any desire to relocate, permanently or not, to any part of the current EU

In my workplace there are several EU citizens, and more than one person has left our office to go work elsewhere in the EU.

 

[JamesT]

Northern Ireland and Gibraltar had a much smaller percentage of the vote than Scotland.

You don’t think that NI and Gibraltar having land borders with EU states was the primary reason for negotiating special status, rather than how they voted in the referendum?

 

[najaB]

To my mind, this seems to show a complete misunderstanding of how democracy works. The way it works is that you take a vote, and whichever side gets the most votes, that's the decision you go with.

That's how plurality voting works. Other versions of democracy are available.

 

[johncrossley]

You don’t think that NI and Gibraltar having land borders with EU states was the primary reason for negotiating special status, rather than how they voted in the referendum?

Scotland should have had special status because of what they were told in 2014. The government totally ignored them. They haven't even acknowledged that some people are very upset about loss of free movement.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Scotland should have had special status because of what they were told in 2014. The government totally ignored them. They haven't even acknowledged that some people are very upset about loss of free movement.

Would I be correct in thinking that 'some people' means 'johncrossley', plus a small proportion of the population?

Bear in mind that very many people across the UK were, prior to Brexit, very upset about the existence of free movement (because of the perceived impact on things like wages, housing stock, migration and availability of various services), so the feelings weren't all one way.

 

[DustyBin]

Pull the other one.

I'm being serious - you would (presumably) be fully paid up members, not like the "half-in half-out" arrangement the UK had.

See this extract from an LSE article:

Nonetheless, no precedence currently exists whereby an EU prospective member state has managed to negotiate opt-outs from major EU policy areas. This would arguably be one of the biggest hurdles Scotland would face during the negotiation process. Such opt-outs would include those that the UK enjoyed as an EU member state i.e. the Economic and Monetary Union and the Schengen zone.

Scotland’s route to EU membership - LSE BREXIT

In this post, Darryn Nyatanga analyses the possibilities and the difficulties involved with EU accession for an independent Scotland, which will be a major issue in a future Indyref campaign. With the May 2021 Holyrood elections coming up, the SNP-led Scottish government have stated that their...

blogs.lse.ac.uk

 

[najaB]

Scotland should have had special status because of what they were told in 2014. The government totally ignored them. They haven't even acknowledged that some people are very upset about loss of free movement.

It isn't just about freedom of movement (though you are correct that a lot of people are upset about losing it), but more about many people's sense of identity. More people primarily identify as Scottish than British - about a 10:1 ratio on the 2011 census (62.4% of Scotland's population identify as 'Scottish Only'). The loss of European citizenship matters more than the loss of British citizenship to a large portion of the population.

Source: https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/census-results/at-a-glance/national-identity/

Bear in mind that very many people across the UK were, prior to Brexit, very upset about the existence of free movement (because of the perceived impact on things like wages, housing stock, migration and availability of various services), so the feelings weren't all one way.

More accurately: many people across the UK were, prior to Brexit, very upset about what they thought Freedom of Movement meant.
----------------
As noted above, those aren't necessarily the stumbling blocks that they're made out to be.

The requirement is that new EU countries have a plan in place to use the Euro, but that plan doesn't have to be time-bound. The same applies to the Schengen Zone - there are several EU member states which have not yet joined the zone.