smacking

[rdeez]

I was smacked as a child. I'm in my mid 20s now, so it wasn't that long ago.

While I think smacking sometimes has the desired effect (the cessation of unwanted behavior), as others have pointed out, I believe this is a fear response, rather than instilling respect. I don't think it did any long term damage to me, and I don't resent my parents for using such tactics, but as an adult reflecting on it I don't think anything was achieved that could not have been done in a non-violent way - rather I think it's a 'shortcut' used in lieu of better parenting techniques when parents become stressed.

I don't support smacking of children, because a) We've seen too many horrible cases of children being terribly abused that anything but a blanket ban could mask genuine cases of abuse, b) although it didn't have a negative effect on me, maybe because it was infrequent and fairly mild, it could easy have damaging mental effects on a child - if they were concurrently being bullied at school, for example, c) Teaching that violence is ever a tool to resolve conflict in any situation doesn't seem to me to be a good thing.

 

[Yew]

Unfortunately, kids are not all like you. A sizeable minority are little monsters who think they can create mayhem with near impunity, and the worst that will happen is that some do-gooder will comment on the lines of "poor mite had a deprived childhood, you cannot blame him / her" - and then tell the child "you shouldn't do that - don't do it again" -- totally ineffective for some of the little horrors.

And your evidence for that is from what exactly. And please dont cite the papers, there is a report from the UN regarding their concerns on the anti-child bias in the UK press.

 

[Antman]

And your evidence for that is from what exactly. And please dont cite the papers, there is a report from the UN regarding their concerns on the anti-child bias in the UK press.

For goodness sake this is an online forum, not a court of law. You don't have to provide evidence to express an opinion.

Maybe the UK press are just reflecting public opinion?

I suppose you haven't noticed the escalation in child violence, mostly against other kids, since corporal punishment was abolished?:roll:

 

[455driver]

How many teachers were stabbed to death in the 70s?

some kids need an occasional smack but that is all, nobody is advocating using it all the time.

 

[Oswyntail]

Well read back through the thread.........I didn't bring dogs into it:roll:....

Well, actually, it was you who suggested we should compare our behaviour with that of dogs :roll:

 

[Antman]

Well, actually, it was you who suggested we should compare our behaviour with that of dogs :roll:

You bought dogs into it by making some bizarre comparison to somebody beating them:roll:
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How many teachers were stabbed to death in the 70s?

some kids need an occasional smack but that is all, nobody is advocating using it all the time.

Exactly!

 

[NSEFAN]

For goodness sake this is an online forum, not a court of law. You don't have to provide evidence to express an opinion.

Maybe the UK press are just reflecting public opinion?

I suppose you haven't noticed the escalation in child violence, mostly against other kids, since corporal punishment was abolished?

Quite frankly, the public are pig ignorant and only hear about events through a news outlet. Given the large numbers of readers and viewers, I think that the press are more likely to be opinion setters rather than opinion followers. Has there actually been an escalation in child violence or are we suffering from golden-age syndrome?

 

[Antman]

Quite frankly, the public are pig ignorant and only hear about events through a news outlet. Given the large numbers of readers and viewers, I think that the press are more likely to be opinion setters rather than opinion followers. Has there actually been an escalation in child violence or are we suffering from golden-age syndrome?

The public are pig ignorant? What a bizzare statement!

And yes clearly there has been an escalation in child violence

 

[SS4]

We've got to the point now where kids have more rights than adults!

Children need more rights than adults as they're more vulnerable than adults and need greater protection under the law. In this case your argument is false - there is an exemption for whacking children if it can be proved it was justifiable under Crimes Against the Person.

A lot of uiruly youths these days that don't know right from wrong and I blame the soft touching, uneducated parenting

I wonder what the de-motivational effect of a hateful (and I don't use that word lightly) Press is on children? Not to mention the effects of the economy: this is not the generation of my parents where one could leave school, get a real apprenticeship and be in that trade until retirement. School children today have a very real chance of being unemployed when they leave education and if they do get a job there is every chance it'll be an apprenticeship for something stupid so employers can get away with paying less than NMW (that Merc won't pay for itself...), a zero hour contract (say goodbye to any chance of getting savings or credit). Even if they do get a "proper" job chances are it won't be all that stable. If there is no future why bother trying in the present?

I remember the uproar when teachers went on strike and parents had to look after their children! Oh the humanity! It seems to me too many parents treat school as cheap daycare and really don't care (or don't have time to care).

A 'smack' doesn't hurt anyone. I got smacked when I was younger by my parents and it never did me any harm. I used to get 'smacked' if I had done something wrong.

Now the PC mob have jumped on it and now say it's wrong if you do smack children.

Have they? News to me

A smack doesn't hurt? You've probably got Stockholm Syndrome.

I was beaten by my father. He became a pathetic feeble character once he was ejected from the family home and lost all authority over my siblings and I. We saw him for the bully he was. I now see my father as little as possible.

Violence intimidates but it never feeds respect. If that's your main tool, you've failed as a parent.

Hear, hear.

Yes people do have rights, children have the right to go to school without fear of being bullied by their peers. When I was at school bullies were given six of the best by the headmaster because as he said the one thing that a bully doesn't like is a dose of their own medicine. Since corporal punishment was abolished bullying has escalated out of control and has even lead to some children taking their own lives. Certainly in my schooldays bullying was rare and violence against teachers was unheard of, nowadays the first form of authority violent thugs come up against is a police officer or a court of law and by that stage it is often too late to reform them.

Do you have any figures to suggest it's escalated out of control? I doubt I'll see them because you've already absolved yourself of the need to support your claims.

Of course for the vast majority of kids just the knowledge that there was a cane in the headmasters office was enough to deter them from doing wrong.

That reminds me of one of Himmler's infamous quotes. If you want to change political to behavioural

The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don't ask for their love; only for their fear

For goodness sake this is an online forum, not a court of law. You don't have to provide evidence to express an opinion.

Maybe the UK press are just reflecting public opinion?

Nah, the Press is a trend setter. Consider most of us only have 5 relatively accurate
sources of news: sight, smell, touch, hearing and taste all of which are very short range and unique (if the brain is playing tricks). Consequently anything out of range has to be taken from an external source, whether that is people you know, strangers or organisations.

The trouble is that not all of these can be treated equally and, in the case of companies, they're constrained by their need to keep their sources of funding intact as we've had a good demonstration of with HSBC and the Telegraph. It comes down to who you choose to believe and confirmation bias is a very real thing and one can choose from a wide range of sources.

If you're told the same thing over and over enough people will start to believe it. How else do you explain the dislike towards those on government allowances costing the taxpayer a bomb but even DWP figures say it's not that much.

I suppose you haven't noticed the escalation in child violence, mostly against other kids, since corporal punishment was abolished?:roll:

I suppose you haven't the noticed the escalation of Wiccans since Firefox became popular as a web browser :roll:

 

[NSEFAN]

The public are pig ignorant? What a bizzare statement!

And yes clearly there has been an escalation in child violence

Yes, the public are ignorant and I include myself in that. For most stories you see in the paper, you wouldn't have found out about it unless it had been published there. Given how abysmal articles are about the railways, it doesn't instil much confidence about the rest! That is why I am sceptical about the claim that violence between children has increased until someone has actually done work to demonstrate it.

My personal experience of going through the education system was quite good. Some students would bully others but there was almost never any actually serious violence. Does that mean everything is fine and dandy? Of course not, but then I also don't buy the line that children are becoming more violent towards each other. Even if they are, is it because they just need a good smack or are there other factors involved?

 

[TheKnightWho]

For goodness sake this is an online forum, not a court of law. You don't have to provide evidence to express an opinion.

Maybe the UK press are just reflecting public opinion?

I suppose you haven't noticed the escalation in child violence, mostly against other kids, since corporal punishment was abolished?:roll:

You do need to present evidence for your opinion to be respected.

And do you seriously think the press don't form public opinion? The press exists to sell - they couldn't give two ****s about what the public think other than what they think will sell to them.
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How many teachers were stabbed to death in the 70s?

some kids need an occasional smack but that is all, nobody is advocating using it all the time.

This kind of stuff has been happening for years, and isn't new. To say that it is is just the classic "the world is falling apart!" stuff we hear every generation.

 

[Oswyntail]

You bought dogs into it by making some bizarre comparison to somebody beating them:roll:

Please - if you do not understand your own comment, let alone those of other people, it is inadvisable to comment further. If in a hole.....
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How many teachers were stabbed to death in the 70s?....

In the UK, I can find only two cases of teachers being stabbed to death, in the 1980's and the 2010's. And in one of those cases, the perpetrator came from a violent background, in the other quite the opposite. Hardly evidence for anything!

 

[Antman]

You do need to present evidence for your opinion to be respected.

And do you seriously think the press don't form public opinion? The press exists to sell - they couldn't give two ****s about what the public think other than what they think will sell to them.
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This kind of stuff has been happening for years, and isn't new. To say that it is is just the classic "the world is falling apart!" stuff we hear every generation.

I don't know about you but I haven't bought a national newspaper for years because up to the minute news is available online so the press certainly don't influence my opinions.

All this asking for evidence is just nonsense, child indiscipline is worse than it's ever been and only a madman would suggest otherwise.
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You do need to present evidence for your opinion to be respected.

And do you seriously think the press don't form public opinion? The press exists to sell - they couldn't give two ****s about what the public think other than what they think will sell to them.
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This kind of stuff has been happening for years, and isn't new. To say that it is is just the classic "the world is falling apart!" stuff we hear every generation.

For how many years? Only I don't recall any of my classmates being caught with a knife, I don't recall any pupils verbally let alone physically abusing teachers and I don't recall police or security officers being needed to keep order.

But lets sweep it all under the carpet eh?

 

[ainsworth74]

For how many years? Only I don't recall any of my classmates being caught with a knife, I don't recall any pupils verbally let alone physically abusing teachers and I don't recall police or security officers being needed to keep order.

I don't recall any of the above either (this was the mid/late 00s) so I'm not sure what that proves...

 

[Bevan Price]

You shouldn't do to a child what you wouldn't do to an adult in the same situation.

If I smacked someone across the backside with a slapper because they were annoying me on the tube, I'd rightly be arrested for assault. So why is it suddenly ok when it's a child?

.

I would be quite happy to see courts specify a good caning on the bottom for anyone (adult or child) convicted of crimes involving violence. (But not to the excessive degree performed in some Middle Eastern / Asian countries.)

In an earlier thread, I also commented that at some schools, misbehaving pupils were sometimes offered the choice between "detention" or "cane", and I am told that the majority always chose the cane.

I personally would also distinguish between using smacking /caning as justifiable punishment for misbehaviour, and more obvious violence such as punching someone in their face or body without any reason.

 

[deltic]

For how many years? Only I don't recall any of my classmates being caught with a knife, I don't recall any pupils verbally let alone physically abusing teachers and I don't recall police or security officers being needed to keep order.

But lets sweep it all under the carpet eh?

My father sometimes carried a knife for protection when he went to school - in the 1930s! A more law abiding person than you could ever meet - someone who on finding £5 note handed it an a police station.

Many school children carried knifes in the past - it wasnt a crime so no one was that bothered

 

[NSEFAN]

Antman, you are the one claiming that behaviour is worse than ever, therefore you have to demonstrate it with some kind of evidence. Other people here don't have the same insight you seem to, so asking for evidence is not nonsense. "Because it's obvious" isn't evidence.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Violence intimidates but it never feeds respect. If that's your main tool, you've failed as a parent.

Precisely. I have never hit my kids. I have never needed to. We frequently get praise for their good behaviour when we're out and about. They have excellent reports for their behaviour at school.

Raising children well is a lot of hard work - it's a lot easier to shout at them, take them to Tescos for a good spanking or just ignore that behaviour you don't want. A lot of parents take the easy route and blame society/school/other kids when things are shaping up as they hope.

You reap what you sow.

 

[Tony2215]

the whimpering DoGooders would say it's abuse no matter what context it was in but personally I believe a good whack when a delinquentunruly child misbehaves Should be administered to them!

All them goody two shoes do-gooders were making their whimpering sounds just a couple of weeks ago when in the news a child was made to eat his lunch on his own as punishment for being late. He must have ran home crying to mummy who took it as serious child abuse and had to go and get the whole of fleet street involved. That poor little unfortunate child got NOTHING compared to what he would have got fifty years ago, and WE didn't run home crying then, We accepted it and carried on.

 

[RichmondCommu]

We never smacked our children. Discipline was maintained through the withdrawal of televisions and other things from their rooms, along with the occasional grounding and turning off the wifi. However they always had a hug and a kiss before they went to sleep no matter what they had done and when they were younger always had a bed time story. That said, although they did occasionally have their moments they were very well behaved children.
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A 'smack' doesn't hurt anyone. I got smacked when I was younger by my parents and it never did me any harm. I used to get 'smacked' if I had done something wrong.

Now the PC mob have jumped on it and now say it's wrong if you do smack children.

Just remember this. Violence doesn't solve anything.

 

[rdeez]

I would be quite happy to see courts specify a good caning on the bottom for anyone (adult or child) convicted of crimes involving violence. (But not to the excessive degree performed in some Middle Eastern / Asian countries.)

In an earlier thread, I also commented that at some schools, misbehaving pupils were sometimes offered the choice between "detention" or "cane", and I am told that the majority always chose the cane.

I personally would also distinguish between using smacking /caning as justifiable punishment for misbehaviour, and more obvious violence such as punching someone in their face or body without any reason.

Proportionate punishments, yes - but I believe part of rehabilitation is affording them the dignity they failed to show others.

When I was 16 I was mugged and physically assaulted for my mobile phone and the loose change in my pocket. The perpetrators then smashed my head against a metal bollard before making off. I woke up in the back of an ambulance. Fortunately I was well enough to be discharged home the same night, and on looking in the mirror, found that I had the imprint of the bottom of a shoe marked on my face where one of them had apparently stamped on my head after knocking me out. It was pretty brutal. The weirdest thing was that I didn't feel angry or hate the guys that did it to me. I just felt sad that anyone could grow up thinking violence is okay, could do what they did to a person and still sleep at night. I found myself wondering what kind of upbringing they had, what had happened to make them the way they were.

They were never caught, but the experience had a lasting effect on me. It made me appreciate my own upbringing and to detest violence in all forms. I don't believe it can ever be a tool for good, and only justifiable in self defense. I certainly don't believe in it as a punishment.

 

[Antman]

Antman, you are the one claiming that behaviour is worse than ever, therefore you have to demonstrate it with some kind of evidence. Other people here don't have the same insight you seem to, so asking for evidence is not nonsense. "Because it's obvious" isn't evidence.

Like I said this isn't a court of law and anybody who doesn't think child behaviour has got worse clearly has their head in a sandpit.

And as for this pathetic notion that smacking is violence.............it is just a quick effective punishment that hurts for a few minutes but does no lasting damage unlike bullying which has driven some children to suicide. We had an excellent anti bullying scheme at my school............the headmasters cane!

 

[Searle]

Antman, you are the one claiming that behaviour is worse than ever, therefore you have to demonstrate it with some kind of evidence. Other people here don't have the same insight you seem to, so asking for evidence is not nonsense. "Because it's obvious" isn't evidence.

Like I said this isn't a court of law and anybody who doesn't think child behaviour has got worse clearly has their head in a sandpit.

And as for this pathetic notion that smacking is violence.............it is just a quick effective punishment that hurts for a few minutes but does no lasting damage unlike bullying which has driven some children to suicide. We had an excellent anti bullying scheme at my school............the headmasters cane!

Pathetic notion? It's the very definition of violence!

It's frightening to think you still have your head in the sand and you're not even attempting to listen to anyone, and it's even more frightening that there's a small generation out there who agree as well.

 

[Oswyntail]

I don't know about you but I haven't bought a national newspaper for years because up to the minute news is available online so the press certainly don't influence my opinions.

I think, in these modern times, "the press" includes online media. It would be interesting for us all to know on what evidence you have formed your own opinion

All this asking for evidence is just nonsense, child indiscipline is worse than it's ever been and only a madman would suggest otherwise.

Call me mad, then. Though, to be fair, what you class as "indiscipline" might have a bearing on this. Anyone who has worked with children, as I have, will have seen a change over the years from blind unthinking obedience to instruction to a more questioning, learning approach. To anyone who can only cope with blind, unthinking obedience, this probably feels threatening; to people who realise that children are human, this is a good thing.

For how many years? Only I don't recall any of my classmates being caught with a knife, I don't recall any pupils verbally let alone physically abusing teachers and I don't recall police or security officers being needed to keep order.

But lets sweep it all under the carpet eh?

At my Grammar school in Glamorgan in the 60s, many of the pupils carried knives, though I can only recall one incident. Some of the knives in question were illegal even then. I can also remember one incident where the police were called, though that was more down to the paranoia of a teacher than actual trouble.

 

[Antman]

Pathetic notion? It's the very definition of violence!

It's frightening to think you still have your head in the sand and you're not even attempting to listen to anyone, and it's even more frightening that there's a small generation out there who agree as well.

What small generation? How many people do you claim to represent? I think you'll find many kids would welcome the return of corporal punishment in schools. I would like you to have to explain to the victims of bullies why the perpetrator cannot be given a dose of their own medicine. Nobody is suggesting that kids should be smacked willy nilly but how else do you suggest that violence and aggression by kids in schools be combated.

You're the one with their head in the sand!

 

[Strat-tastic]

Interesting article in today's Times: -

Parents call in police to control their children

Police are increasingly being called to homes where parents are unable to discipline their own children, a watchdog’s report has revealed.
Parents are demanding that officers come to their houses to deal with disruptive behaviour rather than chastise the youngsters themselves.
In many cases parents have been unable to cope with bad behaviour, including incidents as apparently minor as a fight over a TV remote control.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4377698.ece

 

[ExRes]

It's frightening to think you still have your head in the sand and you're not even attempting to listen to anyone, and it's even more frightening that there's a small generation out there who agree as well.

I have my own opinions on punishment which I don't intend to put up for discussion on here, that said we were subject to the cane, slipper and ruler when I was at school the result of which was once bitten twice shy, you knew bad behaviour wouldn't be tolerated, something which doesn't appear to be the case nowadays

I have big problems with your quote though, are you attempting to listen to anyone ?, why should your view not be putting your head in the sand and why should anyone that agrees with you not be a small and frightening generation as well ?

You are simply showing that in your opinion anyone that has the temerity to disagree with you is wrong and that is not discussion

 

[SS4]

What small generation? How many people do you claim to represent? I think you'll find many kids would welcome the return of corporal punishment in schools. I would like you to have to explain to the victims of bullies why the perpetrator cannot be given a dose of their own medicine. Nobody is suggesting that kids should be smacked willy nilly but how else do you suggest that violence and aggression by kids in schools be combated.

You're the one with their head in the sand!

If your definition of what causes a beatable offence is arbitrary than it is wily nilly. Do you whack for persistent lateness? Or for "disrupting" a class (solely in the teacher's opinion of course)?

I believe good behaviour needs to be rewarded.

Call me mad, then. Though, to be fair, what you class as "indiscipline" might have a bearing on this. Anyone who has worked with children, as I have, will have seen a change over the years from blind unthinking obedience to instruction to a more questioning, learning approach. To anyone who can only cope with blind, unthinking obedience, this probably feels threatening; to people who realise that children are human, this is a good thing.

I see this as the crux of change. I feel it's important to explain why something is the case. I also expect that some employers would much rather prefer the old style method of obedience for their staff

 

[Antman]

If your definition of what causes a beatable offence is arbitrary than it is wily nilly. Do you whack for persistent lateness? Or for "disrupting" a class (solely in the teacher's opinion of course)?

I believe good behaviour needs to be rewarded.



I see this as the crux of change. I feel it's important to explain why something is the case. I also expect that some employers would much rather prefer the old style method of obedience for their staff

No you do not whack for lateness (detention was the punishment for that in my schooldays) or for minor incidents of misbehaving.

Rewarding good behaviour (above and beyond what is required) is fine but as any parent knows if you start rewarding kids for doing what they are supposed to do it will never end. I mean in the real world you wouldn't get police stopping motorists and presenting them with gifts for driving within the speed limit.

 

[TheKnightWho]

All them goody two shoes do-gooders were making their whimpering sounds just a couple of weeks ago when in the news a child was made to eat his lunch on his own as punishment for being late. He must have ran home crying to mummy who took it as serious child abuse and had to go and get the whole of fleet street involved. That poor little unfortunate child got NOTHING compared to what he would have got fifty years ago, and WE didn't run home crying then, We accepted it and carried on.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. I can only conclude that you're either jealous of today's kids or seem to think that child abuse is a genuinely good thing for society?

There's no evidence that smacking improves behaviour, and quite frankly it seems like some people here just like "what's obvious" (i.e. what they like doing) rather than care about what actually works.
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No you do not whack for lateness (detention was the punishment for that in my schooldays) or for minor incidents of misbehaving.

Rewarding good behaviour (above and beyond what is required) is fine but as any parent knows if you start rewarding kids for doing what they are supposed to do it will never end. I mean in the real world you wouldn't get police stopping motorists and presenting them with gifts for driving within the speed limit.

What do you actually want out of this? Are you really arguing that fear and punishment are the best ways to run classrooms?

The best teachers always engage with their kids and try and understand them. If the only way you can deal with them is by physically hitting them then frankly you're just a bully.