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Six feathered signals

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The Planner

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Where would that have been ?? On what is now the up chord from Abbey to the station ??
 

matchmaker

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Are there any such signals out there. The most I have ever seen on a signal is five (see attached photo of Nuneaton). Are there any signals with all 6?????

A thread on The Signal Box discussed this a couple of years ago. The answer seemed to be no, although there are/were several with 5.



"B110 at Bristol Parkway. Two others are Y207 at York and W55 at Waterloo but I'm sure there are more.

SN109 at Ladbroke Grove had five feathers when it was infamously SPADed, but now has only three."

PS If you use a photo lifted from somebodys web site please give them the credit! Original is at http://www.roscalen.com/signals/WestMids/index.htm#Nuneaton
 

DavidBrown

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The southbound approach to Exeter St Davids has a 5 feather. According to this site, the central aspect was coloured blue to make it clear that this was the pivot point, though this is no longer the case.
 

Rugd1022

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Where would that have been ?? On what is now the up chord from Abbey to the station ??

Yes, NN6 was the one that put you from the old chord towards the station... have sat there many times waiting for the right feather ;)
 

Zoe

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Is there any signal that has exactly 7 routes from the main aspect? This is a situation where you could use 6 feathers.
 

Rugd1022

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You and your freight seem to get about everywhere! :)

My route card is quite extensive, it's much more varied now than it used to be for Rugby men.... it currently extends to London via the WCML, MML, Chiltern line / GW as far as Old Oak, Cross Country route from Brum as far as Didcot, NE / SW route as far as Gloucester, up to Crewe via West Mids and Trent Valley lines, Bletchley - Bedford, New St - Leicester, the Sutton Park line and a few other bits 'n' bobs ;)
 

PinzaC55

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Is there any signal that has exactly 7 routes from the main aspect? This is a situation where you could use 6 feathers.

There's actually a signal at Micklefield which has 2 feathers but only 2 routes. That's because when it was erected both routes (Selby and York) had equal priority, and they have never bothered modernising it.
 

mumrar

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On the approach to Tipton from New Street there was a signal with a feather despite the junction line having been long since ripped up.

Also, on the Up Relief at Cardiff East, due to the track layout, if you want to go 2 tracks to the left on the Up Main you have a position 3 feather (the one at \ angle) but your first move is to cross right on to the Down Relief and then back over all 3 lines to the Up Main!
 

driver9000

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On the approach to Tipton from New Street there was a signal with a feather despite the junction line having been long since ripped up.

One at Rose Grove too, the feather has survived even though the signal is now an LED searchlight.
 

strange6

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One at Rose Grove too, the feather has survived even though the signal is now an LED searchlight.

The platform starting signal at St Helens Central is feathered for the long disused road to St Helens Junction for some reason. That signal was put in place long after the line had shut for some reason. They may have had plans to reopen it again and changed their minds
 

MidnightFlyer

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I would have thought that if the line was in situ then it would still have to be signalled for, then again I'm not a signalling expert.
 

John Webb

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The platform starting signal at St Helens Central is feathered for the long disused road to St Helens Junction for some reason. That signal was put in place long after the line had shut for some reason. They may have had plans to reopen it again and changed their minds
One of the reasons signals are sometimes left in place even if the line branching off or coming in has been closed (or even lifted) is that the signal interlocking doesn't need any major reorganisation. That of course, saves money!
 

strange6

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One of the reasons signals are sometimes left in place even if the line branching off or coming in has been closed (or even lifted) is that the signal interlocking doesn't need any major reorganisation. That of course, saves money!

Yeah, but this signal replaced both the old semaphores at the time and the route had long been closed off even then :)
 

driver9000

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The route remained available to Ravenhead to serve a leather works hence the colour light having a feather. The signal to come off that line is still a semaphore. The fence is very recent.
 

strange6

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The route remained available to Ravenhead to serve a leather works hence the colour light having a feather. The signal to come off that line is still a semaphore. The fence is very recent.

Yes, you can still see that big semaphore in the distance. Is it still connected to the box?

Edit: Don't answer that - I'll look for the cable the next time I'm down that way. It'll give me something to do because it's a very boring journey
 
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Peter Mugridge

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There is a three feather four route signal on the up line just south of Epsom station at West Hill, easily photographable from the adjacent open space...
 

Crossover

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On the approach to Tipton from New Street there was a signal with a feather despite the junction line having been long since ripped up.

The platform starting signal at St Helens Central is feathered for the long disused road to St Helens Junction for some reason. That signal was put in place long after the line had shut for some reason. They may have had plans to reopen it again and changed their minds

As alluded to earlier, about the interlocking not needing replacing, I think it can also be to do with "grandfather rights" such that if the line were to be reopened, the signalling already exists for it.

I recall reading a thread on here about one of the main lines (could be WCML) that has a red aspect in the middle of nowhere from an ex junction (no track exists there). Essentially the signalling system has been tricked into thinking the points are there when it is just plain track but the red signal that is protecting nothing must remain illuminated for the signalling system to "prove" that a train isn't going to come down the none existant line. If that signal were to fail, it would throw the protecting signal on the main line to red, as I understand it
 

Old Timer

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The situation has become somewhat complicated with regards to the arrangements applied at signals which had routes recovered from them.

In BR/Railtrack days, there were two situations, either a full recovery of the interlocking and lineside equipment or what was known as a partial recovery.

A partial recovery itself had the option for what was known as "minimal recoveries".

Historically it was a requirement that all route indicators, redundant signal arms, stencil indicators, and other similar equipment was removed from each signal when a route was recovered. The redundant equipment in the interlocking was also recovered.

Without going into details, there are occasions when it is not desirable to go into an operational interlocking and undertake a full recovery of all the equipmentand therefore what is known as a partial recovery is undertaken. This would normally involve all redundant equipment from the signal being removed, together with the immediate operational relays, etc.

Where this is not desirable, we had a minimal recoveries strategy which in addition to the recovery of the lineside signal equipment, consisted of the minimal recovery of the control equipment. Mostly this consisted of recovering tail cables from the location cases to the equipment and then implementing a number of alterations to the wiring in those locations cases, which fed back only "normal" indications to the interlocking. Thus there was no need to alter the interlocking.

Whilst it was always the norm to always recover the physical signalling equipment visible to the Driver, this appears to have lapsed since Network Rail took over, so that we now have signals with junction indicators, stencils, etc which remain on the signal head although the track is no longer there.

Whilst this is not desirable, of course there is no Standard that I am aware prohibits this, and of course because Network Rail write those Standards I rather much doubt there will be one.

What has complicated signalling has been the signal sighting changes that have arisen following the Ladbroke Grove Collision. Now anyone in their right mind would not consider that an OHL contact wire or registration arm passing across the line of sight of a Driver for a fleeting part of a second would (a) be the source of a distraction, and (b) cause the Driver to miss the signal :roll:

That is of course unless you are a member of the Judiciary or a reptile seeking a quick headline.

Following the Ladbroke Grove Inquiry, we as an Industry received yet another series of completely irrelevant and pointless "Recommendations" most of which have conspired to make the Railway less safe because infrastructure alterations and improvements are made so complex and have so many irrelevant requirements as to make even the most basic of changes a strategic and logistical nightmare.

For example we hae all seen the massive increase in banner repeaters, especially on the WCML ?

Well the original purpose of a banner repeater was to give the Driver an early warning that the signal was OFF. We now have the ridiculous situation where banner repeaters are treated completely the opposite, in that the On position needs to be sighted to the same standard as the main aspect :roll:

This is despite the fact that the train will already be preparing to stop and thus running sufficiently slow. From a Driver's point of view a banner adds nothing to his stopping but means everything to allowing him to apply power if the signal has cleared as he approaches. Thus the banner has absolutely nothing to do with controlling the train to a stand. The Driver will know the position of the signal and if he needs to sight the banner in order to work out where the main signal is then God help us all.

The big issue is that because of these ridiculous sighting rules, signals which have existed for years and have never incurred an SPAD, suddenly become high risk signals when an alteration is required, and the sighting rules require the signal to be relocated, and thus we have an exponentially increasing number of signals that require work rather than just the one signal.

So today and ad infinitum the signal is perfectly safe under existing rules and will probably never inbcur a SPAD but as soon as for example you want to do a small modification to it, a full signal sighting process has to be applied, and of course invariably practically every signal will fail the "new" rules, which then suggest that trains will be SPADding by the minute.

In electrified areas there may well be the need to change OHL strucures and equipment as well, even though the signal may be perfectly fine, simply because of the rules.

You can see therefore why even the slightest signalling alterations can suddenly run into £100,000s, and larger schemes simply exist as cash generators for a whole army of people and procedural documents which are neither needed nor add value other than to allow someone to respond to the Media.

Clapham Junction, Purley, Southall, and Ladbroke Grove as accidents have resulted in a huge and unecessary overhead costs on the Railway in many cases because their Recommendations went far beyond what was sensible and reasonable simply to address PR issues, allow self-serving Politicians to further their own positions, ambulance chasing Solicitors to gain ever greater profits amd become millionaires, the gutter dwelling scum of the Media to gain senesationalist headlines, underpinned by soundbite solutions, and grieving relatives to gain a form of "justice" which can best be aligned to a Greek Tragedy.

Thus we go forward in a society that gives not two monkeys about the relative safety of trains compared to other forms of transport and fails to recognise that you are several times more likely to suffer a fatal accident in your living room reading this, than you ever will in several lifetimes of rail travel.

Apologies about the rant, but as a Country we have concentrated our attention and our investment in the Railways on completely the wrong things, and whilst everybody in the know understands this we have no-one within the Industry with any backbone to tell the media and other self servers to go forth and multiply.
 
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Rugd1022

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OT, to me that certainly did not come over as a rant, but as a well thought out and well executed post. it hit the spot nicely. Even if I were not a driver, I would have to agree with everything you've said....it's nice to see a bit of common sense applied.

You are bang on about the excessive use of banner repeaters and of course their reason for being there in the first place. There are dozens on my route card, some of which are only useful for reapplying power when I see that they're in the 'off' position.

;)
 

John Webb

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Interesting comment re the banner signals, OT. There have been an increase of them on the line between St Pancras and Bedford, but this seems to be directly connected with the extension of platforms from 8 to 12 coach length when the effect of curves is increased.
 

Rugd1022

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A good point there John, to which I'd just add... the splitting banner repeater just south of the Down Slow platform at Leagrave is (ironically) sometimes difficult to spot in daylight due to the infrastructure right behind it!
 
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