Shutting the door in my face

[burgesst]

If the service is frequent enough then just get to the station in good time and you will get in a train around the time you need.

This morning, I was on time. My train was on time. Unfortunately, the fast service wasn't, so we had to wait for it to pass us, making us late, and making me late for my connecting service, and then a 20 minute wait for the next one.

You can't win, can you ?

 

[455driver]

Why was the fast train late?

If its the railways fault, train defect, signalling etc then fair enough moan, but what is the betting the fast train was delayed because of "passenger" action?

If you want to PM me the station and time I will have a look to see if there is a reason given for the delay.

 

[burgesst]

Why was the fast train late?

If its the railways fault, train defect, signalling etc then fair enough moan, but what is the betting the fast train was delayed because of "passenger" action?

If you want to PM me the station and time I will have a look to see if there is a reason given for the delay.

I was just really commenting that we're all really losers sometimes despite our best efforts, rather than blaming anyone. But this train does very often have to wait to be overtaken, and this reduces our connection time from 4 minutes to 30 seconds, and very often there are about 30 people running down the platform as the doors close. Sometimes the guards wait for them, sometimes not.

I'll pm the details, it would be interesting to know.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

A lot of the posts on this thread are reminiscent of the stale old railway joke: 'If it wasn't for the passengers, we could run a great service.'

What we should remember is that passengers are prone to forgetfulness; likely to panic; probably harassed by a thousand one personal problems and secretly wishing that they were elsewhere. In other words they are just human and are likely to be ordinary good natured people who are good neighbours and love their families. I don't think that nature intended the human race to be commuters so please make some allowance for human weknesses.

 

[455driver]

I was just really commenting that we're all really losers sometimes despite our best efforts, rather than blaming anyone. But this train does very often have to wait to be overtaken, and this reduces our connection time from 4 minutes to 30 seconds, and very often there are about 30 people running down the platform as the doors close. Sometimes the guards wait for them, sometimes not.

I'll pm the details, it would be interesting to know.

PM returned.

I agree its infuriating and (when I was a guard) I always used to wait where practical for any runners (if there was another train with the same calling pattern a few minutes behind then the train goes), especially if I have just seen a late train arrive which I know will have intending passengers for my train.
If they can make the effort then I can do my bit to help, it was always "nice" when all the runners went straight past me and not one says thank you even though they could see I had waited for them!

A lot of the posts on this thread are reminiscent of the stale old railway joke: 'If it wasn't for the passengers, we could run a great service.'

What we should remember is that passengers are prone to forgetfulness; likely to panic; probably harassed by a thousand one personal problems and secretly wishing that they were elsewhere.

This could also apply to any/every member of railstaff but we also (at times) have to put up with the "I am more important than you so I will take my time" brigade, please note this does not apply to 99.9% of commuters.

Plus leasure travellers sometimes need a little help which is why the staff are there but as they dont normally travel in the rush hours (who would if they didnt have to) it doesnt apply to them either.

 

[A-driver]

A lot of the posts on this thread are reminiscent of the stale old railway joke: 'If it wasn't for the passengers, we could run a great service.'

What we should remember is that passengers are prone to forgetfulness; likely to panic; probably harassed by a thousand one personal problems and secretly wishing that they were elsewhere. In other words they are just human and are likely to be ordinary good natured people who are good neighbours and love their families. I don't think that nature intended the human race to be commuters so please make some allowance for human weknesses.

The flip side to that coin though is that we can't win either way. If we wait for a late runner and it leads to the train arriving into London a few mins late then we get criticised by passengers for being late. If we try and leave on time shutting the doors on late runners (for whatever reason they are late) then we get criticised for not waiting.

It's an incredibly busy network in places and whilst it may seem unfriendly to shut the doors on people we don't do it for a laugh (well, not always...) but more as we know that we only have a 5 min turnaround at the end of the journey and if we are late by even a minute the train will just get later and later all morning.

 

[Flamingo]

Lots of last- minute runners at Paddington screaming to "Hold the train" are either clutching a coffee / fast food bag, or going to Reading (6-10 minutes of a wait for the next service, 15 max most of the day). A significant proportion of these then object vociferously when asked to keep moving from 1st Class.

I don't see any reason to hold the 200+ passengers on the train up for these people.

 

[455driver]

I don't see any reason to hold the 200+ passengers on the train up for these people.

Nor do I, these have only themselves to blame.

As stated by A-Driver, its all a balancing act and the specific situation will be different throughout the network but we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

 

[burgesst]

This could also apply to any/every member of railstaff but we also (at times) have to put up with the "I am more important than you so I will take my time" brigade

If its any consolation, these people really annoy their fellow passengers too (well, me anyway).

Sometimes the door I'm trying to exit through has a solid semicircle of people waiting to board, none of whom seems willing to let me off the train!

 

[island]

If its any consolation, these people really annoy their fellow passengers too (well, me anyway).

Sometimes the door I'm trying to exit through has a solid semicircle of people waiting to board, none of whom seems willing to let me off the train!

Regular occurrence at the up end of London Bridge platform 6 in the morning. If people just stood back the train would empty way faster and they could get on.

 

[jon0844]

A lot of the posts on this thread are reminiscent of the stale old railway joke: 'If it wasn't for the passengers, we could run a great service.'

What we should remember is that passengers are prone to forgetfulness; likely to panic; probably harassed by a thousand one personal problems and secretly wishing that they were elsewhere. In other words they are just human and are likely to be ordinary good natured people who are good neighbours and love their families. I don't think that nature intended the human race to be commuters so please make some allowance for human weknesses.

I have a lot of sympathy for people who don't travel a lot. I only need to look at my parents using the railway to see that. And if I am travelling abroad, then I'm also that person who is very confused and will likely just follow others, and perhaps then think 'Ah, if I do this again, I'll walk further along' or whatever - except, it's a one of journey and I won't be doing it again.

However, commuters are a bit different because they do the same thing every day and still don't seem to learn or use their initiative.

I mean, how could I travel virtually EVERY day and walk down the platform at Finsbury Park to board the rear, almost empty, carriage on a 6-car train to Moorgate while everyone else piles into the front 2 or 3 and has to stand and then moan?

Perhaps on occasion one or two others would do the same, and I'd usually recognise them as other regulars!

So what about the others? Have they never noticed that the train is longer every day and that others are further up the platform possibly for a reason?!

There are plenty of people who might be nervous, confused and so on - and the railway should have a duty to help these people, but some people are beyond help.

If its any consolation, these people really annoy their fellow passengers too (well, me anyway).

Sometimes the door I'm trying to exit through has a solid semicircle of people waiting to board, none of whom seems willing to let me off the train!

I've often stood on the train looking out and waited until people will make a gap. I could of course just barge through, but that would make me look like the bad person - and possibly also get me in trouble.

At King's Cross on the tube, it's often tourists but I always figure that they likely come from a place that also has public transport and surely they have figured out that standing aside makes sense? If not, I really do wonder how those systems cope!

 

[swj99]

The train must leave as close to time as possible or else the rest of the day suffers.

If there are still people who want to get on that train when it is due to leave, this would suggest to me that the timetable hasn't allowed a sufficient dwell time, and therefore needs to be amended to facilitate this.

If the service is frequent enough then just get to the station in good time and you will get in a train around the time you need. Unfortunately you can't please everyone in the peak.

As the original poster said,

I was waiting on the platform to get on South West Trains service recently. A LOT of people got off for some reason, more than normal, and this delayed us getting on. In fact, the guard shut the doors while people were still trying to board the train.

These were not people who had arrived late or not left enough time. They were there when the train pulled in.

The original poster got to the station in good time and was on the platform. If there is not enough time scheduled into the timetable for passengers to board the train, then clearly the schedule, or timetable, or the TOC policy of closing doors before passengers have finished getting on or off trains, is inadequate, and needs to be changed.

 

[A-driver]

If there are still people who want to get on that train when it is due to leave, this would suggest to me that the timetable hasn't allowed a sufficient dwell time, and therefore needs to be amended to facilitate this.

No, its not as simple as that. As I have already explained, peak timetables often can't be lengthened to allow longer dwells as there isn't enough capacity on the lines. If you give trains an extra 30secs at a station it could mean you have to cancel 2 services per hour in the peak. If you do that it gets even more crowded and people moan that there are less trains being run.

At busy stations in the peak its a turn up and go service. If you can't get on the first train you may have to wait for the second. Watch stations south of Alexandra palace towards moorgate in the morning to see that-people won't fit on the trains so they have to go with not everyone onboard.

 

[jon0844]

It's a shame it is taking so long to decide whether to go ahead and make the 313s into a fixed 6-car formation and then open up the middle cabs/guards area (which as we know some people have already illegally been using) for more standees.

You'd get an awful lot of people in those two areas (and legally!), which would make a difference until such time that we find out if there will ever be new rolling stock that would probably be laid out more like a 378 internally.

Stripping out some seats even now would help too, as while there's an argument that says toilets could be useful for the longest possible journeys that these trains do, there's an even bigger one that supports less seats when a lot of people aren't on the trains for that long. It might mean FCC having to reconsider their use on some other services out of KGX though.

I rarely use the slow trains into London in the peak (I always got a faster train to Finsbury Park and changed there to go to Old Street, as half the train gets off as I get on) but when I have, I've seen people left behind from as far up as Potters Bar (you only need a previous service to have been cancelled for that to happen) and I've then heard drivers making various remarks about blocking the doors. To be fair, most people on the trains would side with the driver than those who try and push on when there is no longer any room to move down. At least by Alexandra Palace, there are now more trains to use as you've got them coming from two lines, but trains to/from Moorgate are a problem at the southern end and something needs to be done sooner rather than later.

 

[A-driver]

It's a shame it is taking so long to decide whether to go ahead and make the 313s into a fixed 6-car formation and then open up the middle cabs/guards area (which as we know some people have already illegally been using) for more standees.

You'd get an awful lot of people in those two areas (and legally!), which would make a difference until such time that we find out if there will ever be new rolling stock that would probably be laid out more like a 378 internally.

Stripping out some seats even now would help too, as while there's an argument that says toilets could be useful for the longest possible journeys that these trains do, there's an even bigger one that supports less seats when a lot of people aren't on the trains for that long. It might mean FCC having to reconsider their use on some other services out of KGX though.

I rarely use the slow trains into London in the peak (I always got a faster train to Finsbury Park and changed there to go to Old Street, as half the train gets off as I get on) but when I have, I've seen people left behind from as far up as Potters Bar (you only need a previous service to have been cancelled for that to happen) and I've then heard drivers making various remarks about blocking the doors. To be fair, most people on the trains would side with the driver than those who try and push on when there is no longer any room to move down. At least by Alexandra Palace, there are now more trains to use as you've got them coming from two lines, but trains to/from Moorgate are a problem at the southern end and something needs to be done sooner rather than later.

Thameslink may help by re-distributing the crowds. Stations like city, farringdon and blackfriars (even London bridge) are close to so may 'steal' some passengers from moorgate & old street.

Unfortunately with only 6 coach platform lengths and only 2 platforms at moorgate capacity can't easily be increased.

 

[W230]

If there are still people who want to get on that train when it is due to leave, this would suggest to me that the timetable hasn't allowed a sufficient dwell time, and therefore needs to be amended to facilitate this.

I still think maybe you're misunderstanding the problem. There is no extra headway available to allow extended dwell times on platforms in the peak periods. We are given 30 seconds for station duties at stations. That's it. Any longer and we start getting behind in the timetable. I do my best to let everyone on in that time but once I close the doors then that's it. I can't just keep opening them every time someone hasn't got on because they were late/buying coffee etc. the other problem being that the later you get, the more passengers you have who will take your late running train, making it even later.

Only today a lady held the doors open for around a minute after I'd closed them as it turned out her friend was buying coffee in the shop and was going to miss the train otherwise... :roll:

 

[PermitToTravel]

TOCs should definitely start prosecuting people who do that. The practice would stop immediately.

 

[jon0844]

Unfortunately with only 6 coach platform lengths and only 2 platforms at moorgate capacity can't easily be increased.

Exactly why FCC (or the ROSCO) needs to look at a way to increase capacity of the existing stock, as extending platforms isn't an option. Opening up the currently private area (by doing it properly, not allowing some commuters to illegally occupy those spaces now) gives a lot of room. If that was left open, without seats, but grab handles and poles, you'd have a place for quite a lot of people to stand - which they could do for the busiest section of the line, before moving to a seat later on.

When I came home from Old Street and stayed on the train, by Hadley Wood the train was near empty. By Potters Bar, loads more piled out and by Hatfield it was very empty. I am not sure many people ever went from Moorgate or Old Street all the way to WGC (maybe 10 or 15 - and some of those would be people who actually boarded a lot further along).

If the seating was made 2+2, you'd get loads more people down the aisles, which would mean more people could move down and also get to the doors to alight quicker. I am certain that would make a real improvement, even though there would be more people made to stand. While some would moan, it's the lesser of two evils - and that's before reminding some commuters to try all of the doors and perhaps get on the train at the back...

At the end of the day, the franchise probably says they must provide nn seats per hour/day or whatever and that means keeping 3+2 and having little room to cope with the crowds. Imagine if such a rule existed on London Overground! Look at the transformation of LO after going from 3+2 313s to 378s. Proof, if proof was needed, that the current ageing stock could be modified to provide more room, which would hopefully drastically reduce dwell times too. You, better than most, know what it's like at Highbury & Islington! Thank goodness I was already in a seat by then...

 

[A-driver]

Exactly why FCC (or the ROSCO) needs to look at a way to increase capacity of the existing stock, as extending platforms isn't an option. Opening up the currently private area (by doing it properly, not allowing some commuters to illegally occupy those spaces now) gives a lot of room. If that was left open, without seats, but grab handles and poles, you'd have a place for quite a lot of people to stand - which they could do for the busiest section of the line, before moving to a seat later on.

When I came home from Old Street and stayed on the train, by Hadley Wood the train was near empty. By Potters Bar, loads more piled out and by Hatfield it was very empty. I am not sure many people ever went from Moorgate or Old Street all the way to WGC (maybe 10 or 15 - and some of those would be people who actually boarded a lot further along).

If the seating was made 2+2, you'd get loads more people down the aisles, which would mean more people could move down and also get to the doors to alight quicker. I am certain that would make a real improvement, even though there would be more people made to stand. While some would moan, it's the lesser of two evils - and that's before reminding some commuters to try all of the doors and perhaps get on the train at the back...

At the end of the day, the franchise probably says they must provide nn seats per hour/day or whatever and that means keeping 3+2 and having little room to cope with the crowds. Imagine if such a rule existed on London Overground! Look at the transformation of LO after going from 3+2 313s to 378s. Proof, if proof was needed, that the current ageing stock could be modified to provide more room, which would hopefully drastically reduce dwell times too. You, better than most, know what it's like at Highbury & Islington! Thank goodness I was already in a seat by then...

I don't disagree at all but its a case of who pays for it.

 

[tsr]

TOCs should definitely start prosecuting people who do that. The practice would stop immediately.

Some public transport operators in this country already do. See this thread.

 

[W230]

TOCs should definitely start prosecuting people who do that. The practice would stop immediately.

Maybe. I'm not convinced though - could give it a go though!

But as already mentioned, the TOCs can't win. They can't put on more trains/allow longer dwell times because there isn't the capacity. If they leave people behind, passengers moan that they should have had more time to get on. If they leave on time passengers complain that they've been left behind!

 

[Yew]

Going into London all the passengers want to be in the front coach so they can be first off, where-as in reality it is better to be in the back coach of the first train and get into London at the same time, compared to being in the front coach of the second train because you couldnt physically fit on the front coach of the first train.

The passengers wont listen or change their habits, the TOCs wont do anything for fear of being seen to be passenger unfriendly so the trains will carry on being delayed, just dont moan at the staff about it!

Just a thought, but what about some travelators that go along the platforms?

 

[Lockwood]

Just a thought, but what about some travelators that go along the platforms?

What about travelators that go between the really short hop stations?
(I'll go get my coat)

 

[jon0844]

Just a thought, but what about some travelators that go along the platforms?

Wasn't it on the BBC 150-year of the tube show where a driver suggested using that instead of a track?!

I don't disagree at all but its a case of who pays for it.

I guess it needs to be put in the next franchise, which would then mean that either the TOC or ROSCO would have to pay to upgrade the trains, or decide on whether to introduce a new fleet.

Perhaps the new Thameslink service will steal away some passengers, but I am not that sure given how many people probably change at Highbury & Islington for the LO, or go to Moorgate and over to Liverpool St (a lot easier than going via King's Cross or St Pancras) - or simply work very close by and wouldn't fancy a longer walk. Anyone that would benefit from those stations can and probably does go into KGX and walk over to change already.

 

[A-driver]

Wasn't it on the BBC 150-year of the tube show where a driver suggested using that instead of a track?!



I guess it needs to be put in the next franchise, which would then mean that either the TOC or ROSCO would have to pay to upgrade the trains, or decide on whether to introduce a new fleet.

Perhaps the new Thameslink service will steal away some passengers, but I am not that sure given how many people probably change at Highbury & Islington for the LO, or go to Moorgate and over to Liverpool St (a lot easier than going via King's Cross or St Pancras) - or simply work very close by and wouldn't fancy a longer walk. Anyone that would benefit from those stations can and probably does go into KGX and walk over to change already.

I'm thinking more people who work in the area between the moorgate line and thameslink but live towards welwyn. Rather than change trains at kings x they may just use the moorgate direct train instead. If the other trains went direct to the TL then they may reconsider.

 

[jon0844]

If the Northern Line wasn't just a joke in the evening rush hour (at Old Street, you will likely find yourself having to let a good few go before getting on), I'd have always gone to King's Cross to get a faster train, with a nice seat in a declassified first class section.

I expect that all we'll find is that even when people have more choice, we'll probably see that with the extra capacity of the new fleet of trains and routes, more people will decide to commute and they'll just fill up again. And whereas the new trains and extended platforms elsewhere will give some excess capacity to fill, the existing Moorgate service will just get worse and worse.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

What a pathetic attitude! :roll:

Hardly pathetic when trains are every half an hour if that.

 

[TUC]

I still think maybe you're misunderstanding the problem. There is no extra headway available to allow extended dwell times on platforms in the peak periods. We are given 30 seconds for station duties at stations. That's it. Any longer and we start getting behind in the timetable. I do my best to let everyone on in that time but once I close the doors then that's it. I can't just keep opening them every time someone hasn't got on because they were late/buying coffee etc.

There's a big difference through between passengers who aren't even at the platform at departure time and those who are in the middle of trying to get on the train when the doors close. Its the latter group where closing the doors seems hard to defend.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There's a big difference through between passengers who aren't even at the platform at departure time and those who are in the middle of trying to get on the train when the doors close. Its the latter group where closing the doors seems hard to defend.

I agree. It was lost amongst the squabbling earlier in the thread, but this is a huge contributing factor to the problem. I'm not saying everybody who misses the train does this, but there is a very vocal group of people who will insist the doors were shut in their face even if they were fully 50 yards from the train when it got interlock. I've seen it with my own eyes more times than I care to remember.

 

[swj99]

I still think maybe you're misunderstanding the problem.............

What is there to misunderstand ?

..........We are given 30 seconds for station duties at stations. That's it. Any longer and we start getting behind in the timetable. I do my best to let everyone on in that time but once I close the doors then that's it.

Whilst you seem to do everything you can within the constraints you have to work with, it's the constraints, or more particularly, the timetable which would seem to be the problem. If the timetable is so tight that passengers who are there, on the platform, are unable to get on the train before it leaves, then what is the point of that ? It's like saying you can have a train service that runs on time, but in order to achieve this, some passengers will not be allowed to board the train, despite being there, on the platform when the train arrives. It's almost as if the illusion of efficiency that is created by the trains running on or as close to on time as can be achieved is only possible by timetabling those trains with such short dwell times that access to those trains is denied to the very people those trains are supposed to serve.