Shutting the door in my face

[burgesst]

Is this a British thing? In certain other countries, famed for their punctual trains, are the passengers more sensible ?

 

[krus_aragon]

Well, yes! Unless you can find a way to educate all the passengers and get them to comply, yes!

I'm not being facetious here. If it is expected that passengers are going to do this, and you can't change it, then this is going to have to be built into the system!

Which eventually leads to lack of capacity due to slower journeys and subsequent millions of £ to fix said problem when it can be rectified by a little education to Joe Public?

If it can be rectified by a little education, then it isn't going to have to be built into the system, shurely...

 

[pinguini]

Maybe I am sick of having to defend my industry from ill informed people, I mean it must be at least a month since the last thread like this! :roll:



I had already made 2 (very polite) PA announcements and 1 not so polite one and wasnt going to get a please explain because of a blokes fat backside!

Anyway I was "removing an obstruction from the doors"!

If youre so sick of having conversations with people less informed than yourself, perhaps it is time to have a break from the rail forums until such a time that you can contribute without insulting or demeaning every person you come across online?

 

[jon0844]

Talking of 185 doors that auto close, does anyone know about the 365s?

In the winter, it can be quite cold and so closing the doors can be a good idea. On some sets, where I've boarded at the front, the front set of doors start to close and then re-open as if they've sensed an obstruction (there isn't one).

Of course, when the driver goes to close them, they shut fine - but I suspect that means some of these doors must therefore have faults?

 

[reb0118]

Is this a British thing? In certain other countries, famed for their punctual trains, are the passengers more sensible ?

Yes probably, I was explaining to one of my Swiss colleagues that we only had 30 seconds dwell time at most stations (principle stops excluded) and was quite proud of the fact. She pooh-poohed this by stating that on the lines she worked there was only an average of 17 seconds per station (principle stops excluded). She then stated that the Swiss people were educated in these matters.

 

[Asian Demon]

Well as a guard who deals with this on a day to day basis on clapped out rolling stock, all I can say is safety is safety. A lot of us up north have now gone with the idea that if the train is delayed, it is delayed. Passengers all congregate at the one door when other doors are totally free. Then there are those passengers who make a concerted effort to run to the front part of two incompatible units coupled together to avoid paying their fare which further delays things.

Educating passengers is never going to happen because passengers don't care about anything else but their own needs and screw anyone else's needs. When I get asked to explain the delay by control, I simply explain that this is due to passenger flow. Control have never complained about it because they know what I'm talking about. I have started to use my whistle more which in some instances feels like I'm herding sheep. We can't even put PA announcements once on the train to advise passengers to try and use alternate doors because of fears it's deemed anti passengers and you get a complaint coming in. I've already had a complaint because a passenger didn't like me using my whistle on the platform when he was the last one boarding the train. We can't win so let the delay minutes rise and eventually the cost will reach a point where something has to be done.

I sure as hell will not take the risk to trap someone in the doors to keep a train to time if passengers can't be bothered to use common sense. If it sounds anti passenger then so be it. Passengers are the ones to blame in this instance. Not staff.

 

[island]

Just to add to a very valid point here, the problem of people refusing to move along the train or platform in cases of very busy services is a significant issue. Time and time again we see people all stood in a large huddle around a single door, sometimes even when that door is at the end of a vehicle and there is another no more than 10 feet or so away. I sometimes get the feeling that it's implied we staff make it up or exaggerate it, but it genuinely is a problem. It is perfectly correct that you can frequently walk to the far end of a train which is rammed at the back, and find seats available. Equally true that you can shout to the crowd huddling around one door and get no response at all, until you walk right up to them and practically yell it in their faces. We then get people complaining that we are rude and make excessive use of whistles. It drives you up the wall!

For an excellent example of this, visit London Bridge platform 6 any morning. Almost all up Charing Cross and Thameslink trains use the platform (the very occasional one goes on platform 5). Thousands of people who have come in on a Cannon St or Southern service invariably cluster at the S car stop board and want to get on the first carriage. Repeated PA announcements that the train is formed of 8/10/12 coaches and there is plenty of room towards the middle and rear are ignored. The station work complete (CD) sign is never given while people are boarding, and even when it is, some dimwit often comes along and tries to force the doors back open (although there tends to be a dispatcher near the front at peak time to yell at them).

Result: trains queued outside the station as it's impossible to maintain the 25ish tph flow rate when everyone insists on bundling into the first coach.

I'm not a big fan of whistles to be quite honest, and I think they can be over used and consequently be ignored by regulars who hear them screaming away on every journey. But they do have an effect, if only to let people know that the train is about to leave.

SWT guards are, AIUI, required to blow their whistle every single time they dispatch.

Well, yes! Unless you can find a way to educate all the passengers and get them to comply, yes!

I'm not being facetious here. If it is expected that passengers are going to do this, and you can't change it, then this is going to have to be built into the system!

I'd be grateful for your suggestion on how to maintain the capacity through LBG platform 6 in the above scenario if you give each train an extra 30-60 seconds dwell time.

Is this a British thing? In certain other countries, famed for their punctual trains, are the passengers more sensible ?

Yes. Japanese passengers spread throughout the platform, and are aided by platform signs and stickers showing precisely where coach X will be in trains formed of A, B, and C coaches. And of course they have the chaps with white gloves to ensure as few passengers as possible are left on the platform.

 

[TDK]

I am not saying give the driver the tip when some drunk/drugged up teenager is hanging on to the side of the train am I!
I mean blow the whistle to gee them along a bit, but then you have got to argue every point I make havent you! :roll:

No, not argue, some of the stuff you put on needs debating 455 and as far as safety goes if a guard or driver shuts the doors when passengers are boarding and there is an accident that inavertantly kills them they will be put in prison! This was what the referral to Liverpool meant!

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes. Japanese passengers spread throughout the platform, and are aided by platform signs and stickers showing precisely where coach X will be in trains formed of A, B, and C coaches.

It would be nice if we had that here. There are some platforms that you wouldn't want to spread out on though - standing at the wrong end of a long platform with a short train due could mean you have to hot foot it when it stops at the other end

Other travellers do annoy me when they all want to board at the same door by the exit to get to the gateline first. This is a downside to installing gatelines - they add enough delay that people want to avoid the queues they can sometimes cause.

It's not so bad on LU thankfully as different stations have the exits at different places and there is not one main terminus where everyone is planning to alight.

 

[TDK]

Yeah excellent idea, rewrite the whole timetable because the passengers are too stupid to use more than one door!

If that what it takes then yes the companies should allow extra at peak times for boarding trains, just take the padding out and hey presto Jobs a goodun!

The alternative is to educate passengers on the improtance of timings and the costs involved - i.e. If you as passengers decide to all board at the same door and delay the trains on a regular basis there witll be a 10% rise in tickets

 

[W230]

I'm not being facetious here. If it is expected that passengers are going to do this, and you can't change it, then this is going to have to be built into the system!

I'm inclined to agree. I've not been a driver long but i'm already amazed at how hordes of people pour from one set of double doors on an 8-car train with 16 sets of double doors. It seems to be more a commuter problem than those using trains for leisure travel (as the commuters want to get off at a particular door for the stairs/interchange etc). It all has to do with saving those valuable seconds in the day. It is frustrating from a driver point of view - the train could have left by this point if other doors were also used but there is absolutely nothing I can do about the mindset of a hustled commuter.

I shouldn't mock really - I would really hate to have to commute in the rush hour!

In relation to your original post, I was a passenger on a SWT service that stopped at Clapham Junction on Sunday and they closed the doors before everyone was on. I was quite surprised though I doubt everyone would have actually got on (rugby event on). The driver seemed to getting problems with interlock as the door opened again briefly. Cue a stampede up the platform with people shoving to get on before they closed again...

 

[burgesst]

I'd be grateful for your suggestion on how to maintain the capacity through LBG platform 6 in the above scenario if you give each train an extra 30-60 seconds dwell time.

Ok, let's add 'where practical'. My original example comes from the suburbs, where a train arrives about every 10 minutes.

And I'm still up for a bit more explanation as to why the trains can't go faster between stations ? Is it signals ? (Why would there be a red if the previous train is 10 mins away?) Speed limit? Distance between stations too short to accelerate fully ?

 

[jon0844]

While stations may have stop boards, a lot of people don't know what they mean (certainly the 'S' Stop) or may not even see them.

I will try and see what length the train will be, but not all displays show this, and then walk down (or up) as appropriate.

Different stations have different layouts, with people coming on from the end, middle, or whatever - and that can of course make the difference on where people congregate.

But despite the regular sheep, what about others who don't know where a train stops or how long it is that simply become a sheep by standing where others are?

And how many people can picture in their head how long a 3 or 4 car train is to wait further down the platform?

I do think that one way to solve the problem would be some sort of markings on the platform, or signs for passenger use that show not only where the trains stop, but where they end at different lengths.

At my regular stations, I have my own visual markers from, say, some seating or even some crack on the platform edge, so I can walk down in confidence and wait by the rear set of doors - but I wouldn't expect others to do so even if they knew boarding with loads of other people was madness.

 

[Deerfold]

Even dafter behaviour I've experienced a couple of times on Thameslink - the train comes to a halt and the person stood in front of me as I wait to board not only blocks people getting off the train, but doesn't even want that train, so once people have managed to get off, I have to make my way round them to get on - just because they want to be in exactly the right place for their train when it does arrive.

That slows things down somewhat and I predict chaos when they get up to 24 tph with assorted destinations unless they can do something about such selfish behaviour.

 

[ModernRailways]

Ok, let's add 'where practical'. My original example comes from the suburbs, where a train arrives about every 10 minutes.

And I'm still up for a bit more explanation as to why the trains can't go faster between stations ? Is it signals ? (Why would there be a red if the previous train is 10 mins away?) Speed limit? Distance between stations too short to accelerate fully ?

Trains can't just magically accelerate to 60mph in a few seconds.

No driver wants to be late (it delays there breaks ) and all drivers will accelerate as fast as possible whilst keeping comfort levels high. If a driver sees a single yellow aspect they have to slow and be prepared for the next signal to be red, this can mean the train get's delayed. I know drivers who depending on the route will see a double yellow and drop their speed to 30mph and trundle along, that way as soon as the next signal changes to green they then whack up to full power. Obviously each driver has a different driving style, but each time a train stops it then takes 2 or 3 minutes to get it going properly again, imagine each train behind also has to have an extra stop at a red signal, that makes the train behind the first train 6 minutes late, the train behind that 9 minutes late etc. And it's just a domino effect, one little thing can cause chaos!

Depending on the distance most electric trains (Southern,South Eastern etc.) can get up to about 60/75mph quite quickly. And in the case of stopping a lot of drivers I know like to do 40mph arriving into the station (depending on where the platform stop marker is), if however they are running under cautionary aspects (yellow/red signals) then they approach each station at around 20mph.

 

[bronzeonion]

Unfortunately, lots of trains used for commuter purposes during some of their diagrams will also operate medium-range services for which the maximum amount of comfortable seating is required - and many doors will doubtless mean fewer seats.

To take an example from an area I'm very familiar with, you can be on a Desiro or Electrostar for either 20 minutes, be perfectly OK with a little bit of standing and want loads of people on board, but the people who go from London to Portsmouth (say) won't be happy when they find they have four seats to choose from and all of them are facing sideways by a cold vestibule!

Then you've got to factor in accessible toilets and bike/luggage space.

Last but not least, I regularly see and use trains with 24 doorways (when coupled up in multiple). With a little more flexibility from passengers, that could be surprisingly satisfactory.

What is perhaps more pressing for short-distance commuter routes is eliminating doors at the ends of coaches, e.g. on 442s - most of these also happen to be too narrow for more than one person to use at a time. If this means getting rid of older stock to result in monetary efficiencies, by reducing dwell times and running more trains to allow more attractive services, so be it!

When I say commuter trains, I mean the frequently stopping ones for example the Southeastern London - Orpington/Sevenoaks trains or the FCC Moorgate - Welwyn Garden City trains. Services where faster options are available to get to more principal stations along the route. Trains that don't need toilets/bike racks.

 

[jon0844]

You only need to see the 'ripple' effect on motorways - with jams that have no reason to exist - to know that stopping is something you want to avoid, and creeping along is always better. Of course that can mean people think the driver is taking it easy, rather than actually saving you a lot of time.

Look at a line like the Victoria Line where a train can be right behind the one in the station. People still delay a train trying to squeeze on, even though another one is literally going to be there within 30-45 seconds!

And when trains are this close, there is always the chance that if a lot of people did get on the train in front, it will take longer at the next station, and the quieter one behind catches up and has to wait. And that is indeed what happens a lot of the time.

Well, the same can happen on busy stretches of the railway too.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

We can't even put PA announcements once on the train to advise passengers to try and use alternate doors because of fears it's deemed anti passengers and you get a complaint coming in. I've already had a complaint because a passenger didn't like me using my whistle on the platform when he was the last one boarding the train. We can't win so let the delay minutes rise and eventually the cost will reach a point where something has to be done.

There is plenty of encouragement on the Underground in London to move along the platform and train - if this was adopted more generally on busy routes fewer people would, in time, be likely to complain at being whistled at or at announcements to move down the train.

Yes, something has to be done - it should be the encouragement to spread and in return management should agree to not hold complaints against the crews for making the announcements.

 

[edwin_m]

Drivers often have a pretty good idea of what is going on ahead and in some cases there is no point in hurrying. For example they may have seen yellows indicating they are catching up with the train in front, which they will probably know is timetabled to make some extra stops. Often the timetable has a minute or more of timing margin on the approach to a major station and the platform isn't available until shortly before the scheduled time, in which case running as fast as possible will mean a wait at the signal on the approach so possibly a later arrival than if they had run at a more steady pace.

 

[455driver]

If youre so sick of having conversations with people less informed than yourself, perhaps it is time to have a break from the rail forums until such a time that you can contribute without insulting or demeaning every person you come across online?

Kettle and pot dear boy, kettle and pot.

If people could be bothered to use the search facility then I wouldnt have to keep posting the same stuff over and over, but then if they cant use more than one door on an 8 coach train what chance of pressing a few buttons on a keyboard!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And I'm still up for a bit more explanation as to why the trains can't go faster between stations ?

Because the throttle is wide open!
There is a permanent speed restriction there!
There is an approach controlled junction there!
The train in front is waiting for 300 people to squeeze into the front coach and so the protecting signal is held at red!
Driver having his breakfast/cup of tea/short nap!

 

[causton]

Perhaps we need more of these notices!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/0causton0/7974032380/in/set-72157630519179860/

 

[Starmill]

As for whistles, when we blow, you better jump on. You see em at victoria, walking causualy down the platform. Time to go, signal turns to off, blow the whistle. 99% will jump on there and then, but there is always one who is too cool. Doors close, too late, you had your chance. As I said to one punter, you can either jump on when you hear it, or be cool and miss your train.

There have got to be a few fringe benefits to being an enthusiast... right? Well, the other day I was boarding a train already in the platform (quite rare in itself for me) and everyone was panicking and running for it, but I was sauntering down the train without rushing, because I could see the OFF indicator and the dispatcher and guard were waiting - but it wasn't lit! Of course, as soon as it DID light, I jumped on, but not all that much of a problem with only a 3 coach train...

 

[455driver]

Perhaps we need more of these notices!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/0causton0/7974032380/in/set-72157630519179860/

You expect the passengers to read the notices! hock:

 

[Starmill]

If people could be bothered to use the search facility then I wouldnt have to keep posting the same stuff over and over...

I wouldn't ask anyone to do that for their own benefit nor for yours. It's not easy... Unless you want us to just trawl YOUR posts? You're a bag of laughs, mate.

Anyway this seems like quite a London-centric issue? Perhaps its more to do with asking people to wait for up to 200m along a platform, as my MUCH shorter 323 this morning I boarded at the back and walked to the front set of doors to alight (after purchasing a ticket) no problems

 

[455driver]

You're a bag of laughs, mate.

Yeah of course! :roll:

 

[MCR247]

Newer trains are pretty gentle when they detect an obstruction. Anything 20+ years old will hurt a bit though.

I wouldn't want to put my hand in the doors of a desiro though!

 

[Deerfold]

I wouldn't ask anyone to do that for their own benefit nor for yours. It's not easy... Unless you want us to just trawl YOUR posts? You're a bag of laughs, mate.

Heaven forbid anyone should look at what's been asked before - we can just go round and round the same questions forever. I assumed it was normal practice - whilst I can;t guarantee to find every thread I certainly have a look before I ask a question.

Anyway this seems like quite a London-centric issue? Perhaps its more to do with asking people to wait for up to 200m along a platform, as my MUCH shorter 323 this morning I boarded at the back and walked to the front set of doors to alight (after purchasing a ticket) no problems

I'm quite used to everyone waiting for my 6 carriage trains in Yorkshire to use the doors at the very back of the train, near the entrance to the station or the very front of the train so they can get off quicker in Leeds - and very few in between.

 

[BestWestern]

I was boarding a 185 and the door randomly closed on my arm, 185 doors of course shut if they've been open for more than a couple of minutes and we were over a minute from departure, needlessly to say, it was quite painful and left a nasty mark on my arm. Not the nicest experience I've ever had.

I appreciate that I wasn't there of course, but I'd have to agree with the earlier post that the doors don't - or at least certainly shouldn't - just 'randomly' close; there will have been a warning alarm beforehand. Was there perhaps a reason why you might have missed this? Headphones, conversation etc? Just a thought.

Regarding complaints, I'd have strong words with any manager who tried to give me a bollocking for blowing a whistle or encouraging passengers to hurry up, that's unreal!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I disagree - the Desiro doors are pretty sodding nasty. Plus they are air-powered and take longer to spring back than their Electrostar cousins.

I would suggest that all train doors should be like that. It wouldn't please the 'elf and safety brigade, but on a practical level if it was common knowledge that closing doors hurt, we would see a lot less of the selfish door blocking tactics that cause so many delays. Class 153's seem about the best to me, I've not seen anybody do it that I can recall, but if you were to try and obstruct them I would imagine it would be a sharp lesson! Woooossssh ker-chunk

 

[Starmill]

Heaven forbid anyone should look at what's been asked before - we can just go round and round the same questions forever. I assumed it was normal practice - whilst I can;t guarantee to find every thread I certainly have a look before I ask a question.

In principle I agree. If something seems like it might be obvious it's probably been asked before. Doesn't mean it'll be always easy to find! Probably still better off using Google.

 

[313103]

The units I have to work on, have these sensors that when someone puts their foot in, it stops closing. Now the passengers (the regular ones) know that if they do this they can force the door to stay open and let all on board, this of course causes delay as it takes at least two minutes for the doors to close on their own. At one time I use to go and close them myself, but after getting involved in arguments with said culprits, I now just wait for the doors to close off their own accord. I would also leave my local door open to close the offending door, but after one very heated argument with a passenger as to why I stopped a passenger boarding at this door 4 minutes after the train should have departed. I now take the key out which closes that set of doors, then deal with the offending door, after that is done I then go back to the rear cab.