Shutting the door in my face

[burgesst]

I was waiting on the platform to get on South West Trains service recently. A LOT of people got off for some reason, more than normal, and this delayed us getting on. In fact, the guard shut the doors while people were still trying to board the train.

These were not people who had arrived late or not left enough time. They were there when the train pulled in.

Now I know we're told to arrive promptly and the doors must shut 30 seconds before departure for punctuality and safety reasons, but it does seem unreasonable, let alone unsafe to shut the doors as people are still trying to board.

I complained to the dispatcher, who told me it was company policy. I complained to SWT, who confirmed this.

Surely this can't be right ? This is not an isolated incident!

 

[Urban Gateline]

Did you travel in the peak time? If so then that might explain why as some stations have trains every few minutes (for example Wimbledon). In these stations there is often a constant flow of passengers, so much so in the peak time that the train might never leave if the dispatch procedure isn't started whilst people are still trying to board. There has to be a cut-off point!

If you refer to a train not in the rush hour then I sympathise as then there is no excuse for closing the doors when people are still boarding!

 

[maniacmartin]

so much so in the peak time that the train might never leave if the dispatch procedure isn't started whilst people are still trying to board. There has to be a cut-off point!

But the cut off point should be after the boarding of those who were on the platform before the train has pulled in!

 

[yorkie]

I am generally against such a policy but if the train is towards Waterloo in the morning peak, it's more understandable, particularly on occasions when there are a large number of passengers insisting on using only one or two out of maybe 16 sets of doors!

I alighted from a Swansea-bound a HST into Cardiff a few weeks ago and noticed that, as I approached the rear of the train, people were still queuing to board around Coach F. I mentioned that there were loads of seats at the front of the train and no queue, but only one person budged, the rest just stood there and waited!

I don't know if that was the case here, but each case would have to be judged on its merits depending on the specific situation.

Whatever happens, it should be done safely though.

 

[455driver]

How many people had used that door to get on in front of you?

Were no other doors available?

If we waited for everyone to use the same door (cant expect the passengers to walk along the platform to any of the other 15 doors can we) then the trains would be late everywhere and the same passengers that queue up to use the one door would moan even more!
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But the cut off point should be after the boarding of those who were on the platform before the train has pulled in!

So you dont want the dispatch procedure to be started until the last person has decided to get on, right oh then.

You going to pay for the (horrendous) delay minutes are you?

Unfortunately you are giving the great british (small "b") public a lot more credit than they deserve, just look at all the other threads about "overcrowding" etc when its simply because they all have to cram on the one coach that is nearest their exit and if its an up train in the morning then they will all be queueing up to get into the (already full) front coach when there is more (probably standing) room available further down the train but that would mean that they cant be first off in the rat run to the barriers.

 

[burgesst]

Yes, it was rush hour, yes it was towards Waterloo, yes, it was near the end of a train, but all the doors seemed very busy.

I could have moved up the train, although this would have been difficult against the flow of people getting off. Yes, I could have moved up earlier, but didn't think it necessary at the time, and I was trying to get the right door for my exit, as I was facing a short connection time at my next station, and the train often gets delayed waiting for a slow running fast service to overtake!

 

[ModernRailways]

How often do you do this journey? If it's frequently (which I would imagine is so during the peak) then surely you should know that by moving a few doors up you have a better chance of getting on.

You may have had a small connection time, but by not moving along the train you made it even smaller.

I've had to use Clapham Junction in the peak to get into Waterloo and it's bloody hell! I was close the the train doors, and still had to let two trains past because other people who were in more of a rush then me decided to start pushing and shoving to get on, I can't believe how few people in the peaks fall between the gaps or fall in front of the train because of the amount of pushing. I decided to hang back and then after two trains had cleared another train came in and still had a few seats. I could have moved along the platform and possibly got on the first train, but I was at the quietest part and so decided to stay where I was.

Obviously at certain stations they have to close the doors on people, but even then they aren't closing them on you, people just lack common sense to think 'Oh, they've just told me the doors are closing, maybe I should stand clear instead of trying to throw myself in.' Instead people persist in pushing their way on, holding open the doors and delaying the train further, had they not of held the train doors the train behind would have arrived quicker.

At other stations though, they shouldn't do so and should keep them open till all passengers are on board, for example at off-peak times, stations such as Weymouth, Exeter were there are fewer trains at less frequent times.

 

[burgesst]

Thanks all, points taken.

I'm always amazed on the Overground, where you can walk the full length of the train easily, that one end has hordes of standing people, and the other end loads of free seats!

As an aside, if the train gets delayed by a minute, why don't they just drive a bit faster to the next station ? I know there's signals and speed limits, but these trains do seem to go painfully slowly for no reason!

 

[455driver]

As an aside, if the train gets delayed by a minute, why don't they just drive a bit faster to the next station ? I know there's signals and speed limits, but these trains do seem to go painfully slowly for no reason!

Du, we drive as fast as we can complying with the rules, speeds and driving policy, are you really that stupid that you think we dawdle along even in the rush hour? :roll:

Each 4 coach 455 has 1 motor coach, that motor coach has 4 English Electric 507 traction motors, each motor is rated at 250 horse power, so that is 1000 horse power per unit. Each 455 4 coach unit weighs between 133 tonnes and 140 tonnes, factor in the extra weight of the self loading freight and it is probably around 150 to 160 tonnes.

That 1000hp is not available until the is doing about 15 mph because otherwise it would just spin the wheels and not move.

Why dont you do your bit by getting in the quiet(er) part of the train!

 

[tsr]

As an aside, if the train gets delayed by a minute, why don't they just drive a bit faster to the next station ? I know there's signals and speed limits, but these trains do seem to go painfully slowly for no reason!

As above, 99.9% of times the driver isn't going "painfully slow for no reason". That would infuriate them just as much. Crowded approaches to termini like Waterloo will be slow because of all the pointwork and signals to negotiate, the sheer numbers of trains, any problem causing major knock-on effects, relatively low speed limits which feel slow after the mainline and so on. If a train is running late, by all means will the driver, signaller and control try to ensure it makes up time.

Of course, the other thing is that due to "padding", whereby trains have extra minutes inserted into the WTT to prevent any delays going over a certain threshold, you may find that a train has to wait because it is early, even if it seems it has been creeping along. You can be sure that those padding minutes are all used up on many occasions to compensate for any minor delays which could otherwise create a chain reaction of punctuality problems!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

As an aside, if the train gets delayed by a minute, why don't they just drive a bit faster to the next station ? I know there's signals and speed limits, but these trains do seem to go painfully slowly for no reason!

Not sure if serious.

 

[455driver]

Well I bit!

I should know better really!

 

[Aictos]

Please tell me this is a late April Fools joke?

 

[burgesst]

Sorry, not trying to cause offense! I'm just a humble passenger, and this is how we see it. No-one tells us anything!

Be thankful I'm asking the question so you can explain it, 99% of the other passengers will just sigh and blame it on you without further thought.

I wasn't implying you were stupid, more that you were probably having to obey some fatuous rule that hadn't really been thought through.

I remember a few years ago that the operators changed the timetables so that more trains would appear to arrive on time!

 

[NSE]

If its only a member of the public, it's probably a sensible question. My family often ask me rail stuff I want to laugh at cause it seems so funny and obvious, but to the non rail person, they don't know trains from Adam.

That said, we have enough drivers on here, when they refuse to listen to a driver then that's just plain silly.


Edit: I was right, I'd rather they took the time to ask and understand

 

[Starmill]

The practice of attempting to dispatch a train while passengers are still attempting to board (assuming they were on the platform in time obviously) is entirely alien to me up here. However, on a recent visit to London I spent some time on the SWT network and was horrified by the prevalence of this practice. I do sympathise with the needs of the dispatchers however, but its particularly annoying especially when there is plenty of room still on the train. Is there really a need to blow the whistle *that* many times!?

 

[Searle]

How many people had used that door to get on in front of you?

Were no other doors available?

If we waited for everyone to use the same door (cant expect the passengers to walk along the platform to any of the other 15 doors can we) then the trains would be late everywhere and the same passengers that queue up to use the one door would moan even more!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So you dont want the dispatch procedure to be started until the last person has decided to get on, right oh then.

You going to pay for the (horrendous) delay minutes are you?

Unfortunately you are giving the great british (small "b") public a lot more credit than they deserve, just look at all the other threads about "overcrowding" etc when its simply because they all have to cram on the one coach that is nearest their exit and if its an up train in the morning then they will all be queueing up to get into the (already full) front coach when there is more (probably standing) room available further down the train but that would mean that they cant be first off in the rat run to the barriers.

How do you know everyone was only trying to board via one door? I can imagine that all doors at Waterloo in the peaks are overflowing. It's pretty damn unsafe to close doors on passengers when they're still boarding and I really can't see how this is their own fault!

 

[455driver]

Sorry, not trying to cause offense! I'm just a humble passenger, and this is how we see it.

Maybe you could tell us what job you do so we can go on line and call you lazy/slow/whatever just because "it looks like it from our point of view", maybe the reason the train is going slow is because it has caught up with th etrain in front because that one was delayed because some fat bloke got his arse stuck in the doors and kept the train there for 2 minutes until I went back and literally kicked his fat arse in, it was at Earlsfield about 2 months ago!

Maybe you should get to the station a bit early so you can just observe the great british commuters for half an hour, you will see why the trains get late and its got naff all to do with the rail staff!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How do you know everyone was only trying to board via one door?

I didnt say that this was the reason in this case but I see it every bloody day!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The I do sympathise with the needs of the dispatchers however, but its particularly annoying especially when there is plenty of room still on the train. Is there really a need to blow the whistle *that* many times!?

Could the people left on the platform get to this magical empty space on the train past all the other passengers crowding around the doors?

The reason the whistle is blown so many times is to try and speed up the sheep, you know the same sheep that complain when the train is late!

 

[ValleyLines142]

I alighted from a Swansea-bound a HST into Cardiff a few weeks ago and noticed that, as I approached the rear of the train, people were still queuing to board around Coach F. I mentioned that there were loads of seats at the front of the train and no queue, but only one person budged, the rest just stood there and waited!

Coach E (and F also on High Density sets I believe) is the unreserved coach on FGW HSTs so many people sit there as all of the other coaches (particularly D and B) have a LOT of reservations, but even so to just stand there stubbornly is ridiculous!

I always try and go to Coach A, as it's the Quiet Zone so journeys are more peaceful and also many people cannot be bothered to walk right to the end/front of the platform! (depending on what direction the train is running!).

Back to the thread, I think if it was a case of Clapham Junction then it wouldn't particularly matter as there are 35tph towards Waterloo so it wouldn't hurt to grab the next train, although of course it could be seen as quite rude to simply shut the door on someone!

 

[Starmill]

Maybe you could tell us what job you do so we can go on line and call you lazy/slow/whatever just because "it looks like it from our point of view", maybe the reason the train is going slow is because it has caught up with th etrain in front because that one was delayed because some fat bloke got his arse stuck in the doors and kept the train there for 2 minutes until I went back and literally kicked his fat arse in, it was at Earlsfield about 2 months ago!

Maybe you should get to the station a bit early so you can just observe the great british commuters for half an hour, you will see why the trains get late and its got naff all to do with the rail staff!

The name of a South Korean one-hit-wonder artist springs to mind.

It was clearly not meant as a personal insult against you. Perhaps not the wisest thing to say but thankfully most of us aren't as touchy as you are.

Doubtless much of it is plain old laziness, but you cannot argue that there is not a mental barrier to walking down the train in many cases, because you simply think "What if the doors close before I get there?" - especially given that staff think its a good idea to close them once they feel that sufficient time has elapsed!

Additionally, if I'd kicked a customer of the firm I worked for, I'd not be shouting about it.

 

[455driver]

Perhaps not the wisest thing to say but thankfully most of us aren't as touchy as you are.

Maybe I am sick of having to defend my industry from ill informed people, I mean it must be at least a month since the last thread like this! :roll:

Additionally, if I'd kicked a customer of the firm I worked for, I'd not be shouting about it.

I had already made 2 (very polite) PA announcements and 1 not so polite one and wasnt going to get a please explain because of a blokes fat backside!

Anyway I was "removing an obstruction from the doors"!

 

[burgesst]

Maybe I am sick of having to defend my industry from ill informed people, I mean it must be at least a month since the last thread like this! :roll:

Maybe I am ill informed. That's why I came here to ask. But don't worry, I won't ask next time. I'll just stay ill informed.

I'm glad I pay 1000s a year to be called a sheep.

 

[tsr]

Maybe I am ill informed. That's why I came here to ask. But don't worry, I won't ask next time. I'll just stay ill informed.

I'm glad I pay 1000s a year to be called a sheep.

Please feel free to ask the rest of us on here. I tried my best in my post to explain various bits and pieces to do particularly with why the journey might seem slow, and I hope I managed to do so without being insulting! The problem is that the same commuters try to misuse the system day in day out, and because there are more than a few of them, they obscure what is sadly now seen as a minority, and make all the staff frustrated.

Passenger flows are a tricky and complex business, with masses of stuff done "on the ground", and also in back offices, with advanced numerical modelling and theories reaching right through to techniques which the staff are briefed on. Naturally, though, there are shortcomings from both TOCs and passengers. If you are concerned with practices of a particular TOC's staff at any given location, do email them. Even if you think the behaviour is really, really obvious or you think that they surely must know, every email snippet helps.

But please, when you are at a station, do remember to assess all the doors and try not to get in their way. It may sound patronising, but the problems you experience will just cascade and end up affecting all your fellow commuters' lives. This is not a rant - just advice to be observant and pretend you are one of those annoying people on a motorway who can always fill the empty bit in a jam!

 

[455driver]

I'm glad I pay 1000s a year to be called a sheep.

Na, you get called that for free!

It wasnt the fact you asked a question but the way you made it sound like it was down to the drivers to "stop dawdling" because the passengers want to waste time at stations trying to get on trains which are already full, delaying not only that train but the one 3 minutes behind that they may be able to get on!

keeping a full train sat in the platform by obstructing the doors does nobody any favours.

Okay it may not have been your intention to offend but the inferred tone in your opening and subsequent posts certainly read as such.

 

[asylumxl]

Maybe I am ill informed. That's why I came here to ask. But don't worry, I won't ask next time. I'll just stay ill informed.

I'm glad I pay 1000s a year to be called a sheep.

Don't mind 455driver. His drivers seat upholstery has a tear in it, and one of the springs keeps projecting itself in to an awkward location .

When the upholstery is repaired a normal service will resume.

 

[maniacmartin]

Occasionally if you're (un)lucky the doors will be closed before everyone intending to get off as alighted before anyone has had a chance to board.

 

[MrJamesBrown]

Owch, if this was attempted near me, I think the emergency cord would have to be pulled . If anything was said then you could say that someone was nearly caught in the doors!!

 

[Chrisgr31]

On Platform 6 of London Bridge there are always announcements asking those trying to board in carriages 1 and 2 to move down the train and use some of the other ones. I dont know how many move down as I am already boarding down the back.

 

[455driver]

Don't mind 455driver. His drivers seat upholstery has a tear in it, and one of the springs keeps projecting itself in to an awkward location .

When the upholstery is repaired a normal service will resume.

Seat springs?

You havin a laff, all we get is a sheet of ply covered in red fabric which has worn that bad that the front edge is litterally just ply, if we slide on the seat we get splinters!

When they were refurbished 6 years ago we actually had padding in between the fabric and ply but that has long since gone, why do you think we drive standing up? Its because our backside is numb and we are losing all feeling in our legs.

Apart from the drivers seats the trains are very well maintained.

 

[asylumxl]

You havin a laff, all we get is a sheet of ply covered in red fabric which has worn that bad that the front edge is litterally just ply, if we slide on the seat we get splinters!

That explains your disposition then!

I sir, will genuinely donate a cushion for your backside.